The Defenders The Defenders Discussion Thread (NO SPOILER TAGS NECESSARY!)

[righthooksrus86]

My full Defenders review/discussion. First off I'll rank the Marvel/Netflix series' from best to worst.

1) DD S1 (9/10)
2) DD S2 (8/10)
3) JJ (7.5/10)
4) Defenders (7/10)
5) LC (6.5/10)
6) IF (2/10)

1) Daredevil Season 1 was outstanding. Easily the best on screen portrayal of a street level hero. There were about 3 filler episodes in the middle that kept it from being a 10/10.

2) If Daredevil Season 2 was only The Punisher storyline then it would have been a 10+/10. Every scene Bernthal's Castle was in was amazing, stunning, and brutal. It was everything a fan of the character ever wanted to see. Unfortunately, every scene involving Elektra and The Hand was very weak and felt completely forced.

3) Jessica Jones' first few episodes were creepy, scary, and disturbing. It was amazing television. The last few episodes were pretty great too. Unfortunately, there was about 5 episodes of complete filler sandwiched in between. This should have been an outstanding 8 episode show.

4) Every scene involving The Defenders interacting or fighting was enjoyable. I also enjoyed the scenes of the characters separate over the first three episodes. Anyone else catch the use of red lighting for all DD scenes, blue for JJ, yellow for LC, and green for IF? If not, watch the first three episodes again. However, once again The Hand was just not interesting or threatening. And once again Elektra's character was pointless and poorly acted. The plot was bizarre ("Let's find dragon bone juice so we can live forever!") and honestly any number of other options would have worked better.

5) Luke Cage was great for the first 2/3 of the series but definitely struggled to the finish line. I did admire Marvel's attempt to do a completely different type of show though.

6) Iron Fist...oh dear...Iron Fist. I've seen some apologists for this show online recently. "It's not THAT bad!" Guys and gals, let's be honest...this show was ABYSMAL! It was awful from start to finish. I hated it from the first awful scenes of hippie Danny Rand dopily wondering around in a high school drama production level acting performance by Finn Jones. It never got any better. The fights sucked. And he never even used his IRON FIST! You know the name of the show!!!! He hit 2 walls and an elevator. Just all around miserably bad.

So the overall message that I hope Marvel/Netflix gets is: 1) make every season about 8 episodes, that seems to be the quality limit and 2) fire every human being responsible for creating, writing, and allowing Iron Fist to air.

I agree Jon Bernthal was f****n incredible. Even in scenes that he wasnt in that were about him. That sense of dread you feel from knowing that Frank was around but dont know exactly where. You know you had screen presence when your presence is felt even in scenes that you're not in.

 

[pixen]

People make it seem like The Punisher disappeared after episode 4 of Daredevil Season 2. His storyline took was a part of every episode. He was in every episode of the season. If there was no Elektra, the season would have gotten boring. Elektra was a great highlight. It only dipped when the Hand came in and the Black Sky thing came up. Not by much though.

 

[Scarecrow_King]

People make it seem like The Punisher disappeared after episode 4 of Daredevil Season 2. His storyline took was a part of every episode. He was in every episode of the season. If there was no Elektra, the season would have gotten boring. Elektra was a great highlight. It only dipped when the Hand came in and the Black Sky thing came up. Not by much though.

I've never heard anybody claim Punisher disappeared. The thing that didn't work about him in the last half (especially the last episode) is that he had nothing to do with the Hand. It basically felt like two completely separate seasons of the show. That part I have no problem with, but...

Frank had no reason to show up to shoot the Hand ninjas in the last episode. That was so forced, I honestly rolled my eyes.

 

[DoomRulz]

One of the biggest highlights for me was Bakuto having his head lopped off. Christ, that guy was annoying. I couldn't stand his voice.

 

[herolee10]

You know, something that I realized about this show was that it was really missing one of the key ingredients that made the previous shows compelling to watch and that was convincing the audiences that our heroes were in realistic danger.

I mean even though I knew that the titular heroes would never be killed off in their solo shows, there were several life threatening situations where I honestly wondered on how the heroes were going to survive their ordeal.

I never once felt like that while watching this show. Heck, I thought that one of the reasons why Claire was going to be in this show was utilize her skills in patching up the injuries that the Defenders would have (heavily) sustained while fighting against the Hand. And yet the only person that really needed her help was Colleen (when she was patched up in the Police Station).

 

[Darepool]

I agree, the sense of urgency and danger was really lacking compared to the solo shows, particularly DD and JJ, which is one of the reasons it didn't reach those levels.

 

[javonstokess]

I feel like I'm the only person that liked the Elektra/Hand storyline from DD season 2.

 

[pixen]

I feel like I'm the only person that liked the Elektra/Hand storyline from DD season 2.

I loved it and thought it was the more fun/interesting version of the Hand. I just hate everything that's been done with the group in Iron Fist.

 

[javonstokess]

I loved it and thought it was the more fun/interesting version of the Hand. I just hate everything that's been done with the group in Iron Fist.

Agree. I think Iron Fist kinda complicated the expectations of what the Hand had been portrayed so far.

I like the concept, but hated the execution. Plus, Bakuto probably could have benefited from another actor.

 

[pixen]

I've never heard anybody claim Punisher disappeared. The thing that didn't work about him in the last half (especially the last episode) is that he had nothing to do with the Hand. It basically felt like two completely separate seasons of the show. That part I have no problem with, but...

Frank had no reason to show up to shoot the Hand ninjas in the last episode. That was so forced, I honestly rolled my eyes.

He had no reason to be connected with them though. His appearance helping Matt out was a nice little moment but made very little sense. Just because the two storylines happen in the same season, it doesn't mean they have to fully connect at the very end. Punisher had his own storyline that lead to his own series.

Agree. I think Iron Fist kinda complicated the expectations of what the Hand had been portrayed so far.

I like the concept, but hated the execution. Plus, Bakuto probably could have benefited from another actor.

He was a little painful. He definitely overacted in every scene he was in. I just wish The Hand was portrayed more accurate to the comic. Have them worshiping their leader (The Black Sky/Alexandra) and not involving some Dragon Bone. I just cant believe they went with THAT over showing the Beast and having Alexandra as the host to it.

 

[Verick808]

Is it really that hard to believe that Frank just heard on the news or over police frequencies that Daredevil was was fighting Ninjas on the top of a building and decided to lend a hand?

 

[Scarecrow_King]

Is it really that hard to believe that Frank just heard on the news or over police frequencies that Daredevil was was fighting Ninjas on the top of a building and decided to lend a hand?

They show Frank turning on a police scanner, so that's obviously how he knew about it. It doesn't change how dumb it is for him to show up to shoot some ninjas that he knows nothing about apart from that they were there and apparently fighting Daredevil.

It was just a way for them to shove him in his skull costume into the last episode. It had no real place in the story. If anything, it confused the dynamic between him and Matt, because Matt gives him a sort of understanding nod while Punisher is mowing down ninjas.

 

[javonstokess]

They show Frank turning on a police scanner, so that's obviously how he knew about it. It doesn't change how dumb it is for him to show up to shoot some ninjas that he knows nothing about apart from that they were there and apparently fighting Daredevil.

It was just a way for them to shove him in his skull costume into the last episode. It had no real place in the story. If anything, it confused the dynamic between him and Matt, because Matt gives him a sort of understanding nod while Punisher is mowing down ninjas.

Well, Frank did just save is life. Also, Matt was a bit too busy to chase him down for murdering undead ninjas.

 

[metaphysician]

That wasn't new to the final scene. Several of the earlier scenes amounted to "Frank and Matt come to a slightly greater understanding". I mean, Matt doesn't like what Frank does, and doesn't want him to do it, but he admits that Frank isn't doing it from a place of monstrousity. He's someone *trying* to be a hero, whose just worse at it than Matt is. . . by degree, rather than kind.

( And in turn, Frank admits that Matt is a man of legitimate, strong conviction, who does what he does not out of cowardice or squeamishness, but out of courage. )

 

[KevTravels]

I was surprised that it wasn't 100% dominated by Daredevil. It was a real ensemble though Luke Cage was given very little actual in the overall plot. But the writers did a good enough job given him something to standout a little.

 

[Random490]

That wasn't new to the final scene. Several of the earlier scenes amounted to "Frank and Matt come to a slightly greater understanding". I mean, Matt doesn't like what Frank does, and doesn't want him to do it, but he admits that Frank isn't doing it from a place of monstrousity. He's someone *trying* to be a hero, whose just worse at it than Matt is. . . by degree, rather than kind.

( And in turn, Frank admits that Matt is a man of legitimate, strong conviction, who does what he does not out of cowardice or squeamishness, but out of courage. )

To me that turn happens when Elektra was injured when Matt distracted her as she as she was about to kill a ninja. The idea that his upholding "no one dies" almost got her killed. I read that as Matt understanding that his way isn't the only way and he accepts people killing in self defense or defense of others, even if he doesn't accept it himself.

I was surprised that it wasn't 100% dominated by Daredevil. It was a real ensemble though Luke Cage was given very little actual in the overall plot. But the writers did a good enough job given him something to standout a little.

Yeah they did a great specially since Daredevil and Iron Fist were the only one with built in connections to the story going in.

 

[KevTravels]

the big letdown was IF wasn't interesting enough for the story to be built around him. Though the series did at least boost his appeal for his upcoing second season.

 

[Random490]

In rewatching there are two things that bug me. The fact the Claire and Matt have almost zero interactions. I loved their scenes in Daredevil together and here there's nothing.

Also I really wished we got more of Trisha geeking out over Daredevil. When she says "no way!" I was really looking forward to the follow up since she was the one in Jessica Jones that was all about superheroes and costumes. Feels like a missed opportunity.

 

[KevTravels]

In rewatching there are two things that bug me. The fact the Claire and Matt have almost zero interactions. I loved their scenes in Daredevil together and here there's nothing.

Also I really wished we got more of Trisha geeking out over Daredevil. When she says "no way!" I was really looking forward to the follow up since she was the one in Jessica Jones that was all about superheroes and costumes. Feels like a missed opportunity.

that was the biggest missed opportunity.

Claire and Matt not saying a single damn thing. Along with Jessica not commenting on Luke and Claire getting together.

 

[Mike Murdock]

I did note that Claire didn't feel like the bridge between characters we were expecting. Instead, she felt like a Luke Cage supporting character. It makes me wonder if that's her role in the future.

 

[dmcreif]

I did note that Claire didn't feel like the bridge between characters we were expecting. Instead, she felt like a Luke Cage supporting character. It makes me wonder if that's her role in the future.

Considering that Claire won't be in The Punisher (according to interviews the showrunners tried to find a way to fit Claire in organically, and they couldn't), that seems like it.

I've had this theory that Karen probably will be taking over as crossover character since she's coming over from Daredevil as well to be on The Punisher, and there's seeds for her to make possible appearances on Jessica Jones season 2 with the new bond she's formed with Trish.

 

[dmcreif]

6) Iron Fist...oh dear...Iron Fist. I've seen some apologists for this show online recently. "It's not THAT bad!" Guys and gals, let's be honest...this show was ABYSMAL! It was awful from start to finish. I hated it from the first awful scenes of hippie Danny Rand dopily wondering around in a high school drama production level acting performance by Finn Jones. It never got any better. The fights sucked. And he never even used his IRON FIST! You know the name of the show!!!! He hit 2 walls and an elevator. Just all around miserably bad.

So the overall message that I hope Marvel/Netflix gets is: 1) make every season about 8 episodes, that seems to be the quality limit and 2) fire every human being responsible for creating, writing, and allowing Iron Fist to air.

I would blame Scott Buck for the majority of Iron Fist's problems, since he's a showrunner whose main trait is "bringing shows in on-time and under-budget". And by the way, Jeph Loeb did announce at SDCC the hiring of a new showrunner, Raven Metzner, to be in charge of Iron Fist for season 2 onwards.

 

[dmcreif]

You know what also bothered me? That scene where Cage just goes in on Danny's white privilege. Yeah I get it Danny is rich and white. But Cage saying "the kid was trying to feed his family." Couldn't you say that about almost any mook Cage fights too? So why talk down to Danny about it?

It feels like that whole scene was just to give some people that cathartic factor of disliking Iron Fist because it followed a rich white character (even though they have no problem following Green Arrow, Iron Man, and Batman)

The argument fell flat for me in a different way: because Cole wasn't financially desperate and he wasn't being roughed up in the midst of committing some very minor petty crime, he was caught in the midst of destroying dead bodies.

 

[dmcreif]

100% agreed.

Especially with the point that you could've caught up with all the heroes. You could've done that with 1 or 1.5 episodes

The thing is, having the heroes meet up in the first episode wouldn't have given them room to grow. The way they do things actually is a bit more reasonable: everyone's on their own in the first episode, they each meet one other Defender by the end of the second episode (Matt and Jessica; Luke and Danny), and by the end of the third episode, they're all meeting in Midland Circle.

 

[dmcreif]

No, they aren't wanted as there's no crime reported. They went with the story that illegal construction around Midland Circle was to blame for the earthquake and that it eventually collapsed the building, which in turn settled the ground again. Trish spells that out on her talkshow, showing some skepticism towards it.

It makes sense though, having a simple explanation that can be said to be truly over, rather than creating panic about what's essentially a massive terrorist attack.

If anyone asks, Midland Circle suffered a very nasty gas leak due to the earthquake...