The Defenders The Defenders Discussion Thread (NO SPOILER TAGS NECESSARY!)

[Iceman]

I wish budget wasn't such a constraining factor on these shows

 

[Limonade]

Personally, I was bored. Luke Cage and Jessica Jones fight scenes weren't really that great especially compared to those of Iron Fist and Daredevil. I didn't even get a good feeling of who Alexandra was. Very few surprises in the show. It was slow to start. No Wow moment. It was all sort of meh. It really looked like a run-of-the-mill Agents of Shield-type ABC TV show. Except with blood... but used sparingly.

Transitions between characters were also not as well crafted as what I had seen in the Avengers. But for being Netflix... I guess it's alright.

It's Avengers-lite with less cohesion or good payoff.

 

[smallville fan]

Why would he? How does Spider-Man stop earthquakes? There was nothing to indicate that it was anything but an earthquake to anyone that wasn't aware of the Hand, and there weren't even any large consequences that would require a superhero in the aftermath. Probably just some extra activity in the ER's.

The only big thing that could logically draw his attention was the collapsing building, which was the end of the climax and we wouldn't see him.

As in do little things to help the emergency workers and get into different places.

 

[Zarex]

I think part of it is that it feels like "more of the same". I get this is a tv budget, but when Avengers finally came out, the stakes and visuals felt worth it.

Here, we have the Hand (again), and more ninja fights. How many times can we watch flipping and kicking and punching. It's certainly lost a certain level of novelty. I think the problem is that everyone has the same-y powers. Super-strength, punching, and kicking.

Seriously, I never want to watch another episode of the Hand again.

I think there is definitely something to this. It was exciting to see Madame Gao show off her Jedi powers and it looked as though white hat (now headless) guy was going to have chi-blocking abilities (ala Ty Lee in Avatar: The Last Airbender). Each of the five fingers should have gotten a unique power that would have played havoc with the Defenders - a sonic scream for Matt, a chi blocker for Danny, and maybe someone who could have played with the emotions of Luke and Jessica. A power boost may have even made Sigourney's character interesting.

 

[samsnee]

I'm not familiar with NYC at all. I took a flight to JFK years ago and got the train to the Bus station.

But how far is Hell's Kitchen from Harlem? and where does Iron Fist's show take place and Jessica Jones? are they all in the same borough?

By subway, maybe a half hour. It's far enough away that I wouldn't expect DD or JJ to intervene if there are issues in Harlem as it's far enough away. Same reason why I don't expect Spider-man, who for now is based in Queens, to just swing down to Hell's Kitchen.

 

[Limonade]

I think there is definitely something to this. It was exciting to see Madame Gao show off her Jedi powers and it looked as though white hat (now headless) guy was going to have chi-blocking abilities (ala Ty Lee in Avatar: The Last Airbender). Each of the five fingers should have gotten a unique power that would have played havoc with the Defenders - a sonic scream for Matt, a chi blocker for Danny, and maybe someone who could have played with the emotions of Luke and Jessica. A power boost may have even made Sigourney's character interesting.

Something. Anything! All this talk about the past and how bad ass the Hand were and immortal... yet the final battle was some lame Kung Fu fight with lots of cuts. Alexandra was killed off so easily.

Ugh. Why? Why build her up so much. This is just like what they did with Cottonmouth... but with less backstory.

 

[Mjölnir]

As in do little things to help the emergency workers and get into different places.

I don't think we saw anything actually happen that warranted it, but if it did outside what we saw, who says he didn't help? If we didn't see those problems we also obviuosly didn't see anyone deal with them. Not Spider-Man or anyone else.

 

[KevTravels]

I wish budget wasn't such a constraining factor on these shows

Same here. One would think Marvel might have tried to up the budget for this series, at least I figure going forward they won't have as many budget constraints.

 

[KevTravels]

By subway, maybe a half hour. It's far enough away that I wouldn't expect DD or JJ to intervene if there are issues in Harlem as it's far enough away. Same reason why I don't expect Spider-man, who for now is based in Queens, to just swing down to Hell's Kitchen.

but where are JJ and IF located within the city? Is it the same borough?

 

[samsnee]

Same borough of Manhattan, but JJ is around West 30s whereas LC is up in West 100s so pretty far. I didn't watch IF so not sure which neighborhood he is in.

 

[Surfer]

The problem I had with the leaders of the hand were that there are so many characters that belong to the Hand in the comics why was it necessary to make up new characters for the show. Especially, since the characters that they made up were just so ordinary.

I think the only character that was a real member from the Hand was Bakuto, but even then he was just ordinary. They have characters that are part of the Hand that have powers they should have looked into choosing some of those characters or at least giving the made up characters powers like they did for Madame Gao. I mean really she was an old woman, but to me with her force like powers she seemed to be the strongest one amongst them. In the end the threat didn't seem big enough, and did the Defenders really need to collapse the building in the end? To me it seemed like they were winning without the destruction of property.

At least that is how I see it.

Surfer

 

[Iceman]

Same here. One would think Marvel might have tried to up the budget for this series, at least I figure going forward they won't have as many budget constraints.

Well I hope they get a good boost. I don't really know what is a big budget for these kinds of shows and how much money they make from Netflix.

 

[Set]

I think there is definitely something to this. It was exciting to see Madame Gao show off her Jedi powers and it looked as though white hat (now headless) guy was going to have chi-blocking abilities (ala Ty Lee in Avatar: The Last Airbender). Each of the five fingers should have gotten a unique power that would have played havoc with the Defenders - a sonic scream for Matt, a chi blocker for Danny, and maybe someone who could have played with the emotions of Luke and Jessica. A power boost may have even made Sigourney's character interesting.

To be contrary, I'm not sure that more super-powers would have helped.

Wilson Fisk is generally agreed to have been an amazing presence, despite being no match for most of the Defenders.

I feel like Alexandra was similarly amazing, and had a powerful presence, despite not showing off any super-powers (barring a brief wrassling match with a clearly superhuman Black Sky).

Bakuto shrugged off being shot multiple times, and showed no signs of being impaired. That's pretty darn impressive, even if it came late in the day.

Sowande and Murakami needed more. Sowande was described as being able to kill people by touching them, via some sort of pressure points / chi manipulation, but we never saw that, so it really didn't make an ounce of difference. Show, don't tell. Murakami seemed hyper-competent, but, again, didn't really get a chance to show his stuff, which was unfortunate. I definitely agree that we needed to see more from those two.

 

[Elayis]

In a way, the critics weren’t wrong. I’m not sure what Marvel and the showrunners were thinking, but those first few episodes were a bore. Not necessarily bad, but nothing much of note or interest happens. Sure, a lot needed to be set up and introduced, but there must’ve been a more exciting and entertaining way to do it.

I was honestly thinking they had another misfire on their hands until the end of episode three. Once the group was finally assembled and interacting the show just took off. The banter sometimes mugs a little too much for the camera, but otherwise is handled quite well. Each character has a distinct personality that shines through (even if Danny’s is a whiny *****e), which helps them all stand out and avoid any overlap.

It makes sense I suppose, but the only heroes who presence is justified is Danny and Matt, given their history with the Hand. At times it was a struggle to understand what Jessica or Luke were even doing there. Sure, NYC as a whole might’ve been at stake, but the threat never seemed real enough. There was the “earthquake”, but aside from that there was never any real or tangible evidence that the city was at risk of being wiped out. All we got was some mumbo jumbo that never materialized apart from armies of interchangeable minions.

It’s a shame that Daredevil was the only main character to get any meat in the series (not that I mind, as a Matt Murdock fan). Again, it’s understandable given his ties to Elektra, Stick and the Hand, but I would’ve liked some more reasons to be invested in Jessica, Luke and Danny’s stories. It doesn’t help that their own series’ were less than adequate (to varying degrees).

I would’ve liked a reason to care about Danny in particular, but the Finn Jones version just seems to be doomed from its inception. He’s like a cross between an abused dog and a self-righteous teenager. I can’t take him seriously as crime fighting superhero, and whenever he talks he’s either pouting or behaving like an entitled brat. They really need to work on his character before they return for season 2 of Iron Fist.

All this text and I haven’t even gotten to the villains or much of the plot. Suffice it say Sigourney Weaver and Scott Glenn are too good for this show. It’s great to have them, but their parts are pretty hammy and underwritten. Stick faired better, but it’s still funny to here some of that dialogue come out of his mouth. Wonder how they both feel about working on a show like this at their age. And I didn’t see that ending to episode 6 coming. Had a feeling something like it would happen, but not so soon in the series. Alexandra’s role didn’t really amount to much, and honestly robbed Madame Gao and the Hand of a lot of it’s intriguing mystique (but then Iron Fist already did that, didn’t it).

Overall, it’s just nice to get a good series again. I’m probably in the minority, but Daredevil’s the only superhero show I’ve ever liked (and even season 2 had its flaws). Jessica Jones so close to being good, but it went on for too long and the only scenes worth watching involved David Tennant. Luke Cage was forgettable and Iron Fist was basically garbage. I’m not even going to go into the ABC shows or what DC has done over the years.

I just hope Marvel’s able to keep up this level of quality in the future. Again, I couldn’t care less about the ABC shows, but I’m really looking forward to The Punisher and I hope it delivers (although more Karen isn’t exactly appealing; maybe without Matt she won’t be so harpy). Same with JJ season 2 and whatever shows come after (hopefully more Daredevil, I seem to recall season 3 being green-lit).

 

[javonstokess]

If you went into this show expecting "Avengers", you were doomed from the start.

 

[DOBSON10]

I don't have much new to add that hasn't already been said in this thread, so I'll try to keep it short.

All 5 Fingers of the hand were boring, uninteresting characters. Weaver tried I guess but her character was dull. Gao is OK, but has always felt like a middling boss woman with no teeth. Ramon Rodriguez is a crap actor and Bakuto wasn't interesting in this or Iron Fist. Sowande and Murakami could have been interesting I guess, but they basically did nothing. They all just talked alot but didn't do much of anything that made them compelling. Just suits who order Ninja's around and posed no real threat. None of them are particularly good actors, outside of Weaver. Elektra was more interesting than all of them combined and the only real threat in the show, but in the end she just has some weird death wish/love ending with Matt that didn't make much sense.

Matt and Jessica were the standouts. I actually think Danny was worse in this than he was in Iron Fist. He sounds ridiculous every time he starts talking about summoning his Chi & proclaiming "I am the immortal Iron Fist" every 5 seconds. He was more level headed and interesting in the first half of Iron Fist, then he got a bit annoying at times in the second half of that show and it continued into this, where he was kind of the punch line to jokes & lived up to it most of the time with his ridiculous shtick about destiny and purpose. When he's not preaching about being the Iron Fist, he's not that bad. Luke Cage has been boring from the start, there is nothing interesting about him besides his powers, which have been dull for the most part too. Colleen Wing is more interesting than Danny & Cage. Karen & Foggy are still mostly annoying characters because they're always whining about Matt being Daredevil (which is ridiculously hypocritical in Karen's case given her attitude towards Frank Castle).

The Hand's plot was pretty dumb, and the Ninja forces were weak canon fodder, the leaders were boring non-threats. They needed a menacing leader that could fight, someone more like Nobu or even Harold Meachem. Harold's character in Iron Fist was more interesting and threatening than any of the actual 5 Fingers. It's not a bad show or anything, but it just left alot to be desired, especially on the villain side of things.

 

[samsnee]

If you went into this show expecting "Avengers", you were doomed from the start.

No was expecting Avengers but I was certainly expecting that combined things more cohesively. It really felt like more of a conclusion to Daredevil season 2, guest starring the other heroes.

 

[Loki882]

Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if that had more to due with budget constraints than anything.

Then don't do a group like The Hand then. Use a villain/threat that you can portray well with your budget.

 

[2kt09]

Something. Anything! All this talk about the past and how bad ass the Hand were and immortal... yet the final battle was some lame Kung Fu fight with lots of cuts. Alexandra was killed off so easily.

Ugh. Why? Why build her up so much. This is just like what they did with Cottonmouth... but with less backstory.

Cottonmouth always came across as the "Joffrey" among a trio who certainly wasn't going to be a physical match for LC. Alexandra, on the other hand, was trying to position herself as an intellectual threat because it was clear with or without the illness she wasn't a fighter like the other 4 fingers at the very least were.

 

[javonstokess]

No was expecting Avengers but I was certainly expecting that combined things more cohesively. It really felt like more of a conclusion to Daredevil season 2, guest starring the other heroes.

To be fair, Avengers was kinda of a conclusion to Thor 1 guest starring the other heroes.

 

[javonstokess]

Then don't do a group like The Hand then. Use a villain/threat that you can portray well with your budget.

I think they did alright. It's clear we have opposite opinions.

 

[samsnee]

To be fair, Avengers was kinda of a conclusion to Thor 1 guest starring the other heroes.

Eh I don't know about that. I get why you'd say it, because of Loki's appearance. But it also had the Cosmic Cube which was featured heavily in First Avenger, and the Avenger Initiative was something that was touched upon in Iron Man 2. Hulk was the only one who's movie had no real connection to the Avengers story.

 

[Limonade]

Cottonmouth always came across as the "Joffrey" among a trio who certainly wasn't going to be a physical match for LC. Alexandra, on the other hand, was trying to position herself as an intellectual threat because it was clear with or without the illness she wasn't a fighter like the other 4 fingers at the very least were.

Yeah. But they gave Cottonmouth an inner look at his beginnings what drove him to power and lead him to where he was at the moment of his death. They showed in flashbacks... those performances really fleshed out his backstory. It gave me an understanding to the character that couldn't have been expressed in a conversation no matter how powerful the actors delivered them.

With Alexandra everything was given in expositions and subtle references. But hers or others' words mean little as they don't always say what they mean or tell the truth. At her death, I felt the same way as her introduction... interesting but a bit underwhelming.

 

[pr0xyt0xin]

What I find interesting is the team dynamic.

- Self-righteous martyr with a garish costume
- Alcoholic sarcastic narcissist
- Huge intimidating powerhouse who is gentle on the inside
- Pretty hippie blonde boy from another fantastical world.

Sound familiar? :P

 

[Loki882]

Eh I don't know about that. I get why you'd say it, because of Loki's appearance. But it also had the Cosmic Cube which was featured heavily in First Avenger, and the Avenger Initiative was something that was touched upon in Iron Man 2. Hulk was the only one who's movie had no real connection to the Avengers story.

It kind of does since the whole "Banner has learned how to control the Hulk's rage to a certain degree" thing during the climax ties back into TIH (where he's trying various methods to do that, and kind of succeeds during the fight with Abomination).