The Joker Thread - Part 1

[SwordOfMorning]

Eh, it varies. I know some gay people who don't like when gay characters are portrayed by straight actors. My college theater professor advocates for gay roles to be played exclusively by gay actors.

As I said, I don't agree with him on that, at least not that strictly.

For sure, but I have never met a single trans person who wasn't at least a little bothered by it. I think it's also a factor that there are tons of gay actors while trans performers are extremely unlikely to get work.

 

[Eddie Dean]

Cis people playing trans roles perpetuates the stereotype that trans people are simply disguising themselves or playing a role. It's not really a thought that varies, it's a major issue that has been brought up many times.

 

[Schlosser85]

Part of it is timing, the idea that cis actors probably shouldn't be playing trans people was certainly around when Dallas Buyers Club came out but it wasn't as solidified, but on a performance level I've actually heard Eddie Redmayne in The Danish Girl get infinitely more ****.

Yes he did. Although I think a lot of people just also think his performance wasn't as good.

 

[AndyTrevino]

Joker as the mastermind behind the Red Hood Gang WOULD feel fairly appropriate for this universe, and I'm not so sure it would really need to change its branding after an Ace Chemicals incident.

 

[Schlosser85]

If I was gonna do the Ace Chemicals permawhite origin story, I'd have him fall into a vat and get bleached completely white and then just dye his hair green and red lipstick or whatever.

 

[AndyTrevino]

If I was gonna do the Ace Chemicals permawhite origin story, I'd have him fall into a vat and get bleached completely white and then just dye his hair green and red lipstick or whatever.

I've always thought his lips turning permanently red was a bit TOO far-fetched. Plus, the hair dye and lipstick gives him more control over his whole look, and even then, I'm fine with naturally dark green hair.

 

[SwordOfMorning]

It's funny, I both really want him to start as Red Hood but I also have grown to really dislike the vat of chemicals origin.

 

[Schlosser85]

I'm not opposed to more reinventions, but after seeing reinvention after reinvention, it kinda makes you want something a bit more traditional, even if it's just design-wise.

That, and we've never actually gotten a complete traditional classic live-action Joker. You could argue Nicholson aesthetically was closest, but IMO the chubby physique and perma-grin throws it off.

 

[WatchProtect]

I can let go of the Vat of chemicals but I need the Red Hood Gang, I need one or the other at the least. I think lipstick works better, but I want the hair "naturally " Green

 

[AndyTrevino]

I think there are a few ways you could do it:

(Just came up with this one 19 minutes ago) They start off normally like in the New 52 comic; ruthless, more chaotic, etc. Then after the chemical incident, the members could make a few background comments about how the boss went crazy and how he fell into the vat or something to that effect. THAT'S how you get the smiley faces on their masks and everything.

You could even have them wipe out that other gang with the white face paint in the sequel or something like that to make room for themselves.

 

[WatchProtect]

Good ol Gang war

 

[Art Vandelay]

I reject that argument, personally. Actors should be able to play whatever they're convincing as. If you start placing restrictions and saying actors can't play stuff that they're not in reality, you're diluting the purpose of acting.

It's about representation. Marginalized groups should be able to tell their own stories, and yet they're often passed over in favor of actors with no personal understanding of the material. When you consider how negative trans roles in movies and television often are, this is especially troublesome. Particularly when in a lot of cases the trans character isn't even played by a non trans actress. How many times have we seen this storyline; a straight man "mistakenly" falls for a woman he does not realize is "really a man! "?

And taking away such roles does no real disservice to the actors who go out for them. It still leaves 99% of roles in Hollywood for them to fill.

 

[Schlosser85]

Speaking of a gang war, and especially as this may be taking some inspiration from The Long Halloween, I'd really like to finally get an overall world-building arc of the old-school traditional mobsters like Falcone and Maroni being replaced with the "freaks" and the rise of characters like Joker, Penguin, Mad Hatter, whoever exactly is in this movie/series.

The Dark Knight had a little of that with Joker and Two-Face killing the mob bosses, but they have a chance to do a lot more with that idea, especially with the characters they're setting up here and the themes of evolution Reeves talked about.

 

[AndyTrevino]

It's about representation. Marginalized groups should be able to tell their own stories, and yet they're often passed over in favor of actors with no personal understanding of the material. When you consider how negative trans roles in movies and television often are, this is especially troublesome. Particularly when in a lot of cases the trans character isn't even played by a non trans actress. How many times have we seen this storyline; a straight man "mistakenly" falls for a woman he does not realize is "really a man! "?

And taking away such roles does no real disservice to the actors who go out for them. It still leaves 99% of roles in Hollywood for them to fill.

I can't find the article anymore (I think it was on Twitter) but it was about how 4 out of 5 african americans can tell when an african american character is written by someone who's white, for instance. It really reinforced my view that if a fictional minority character or a trans character is written by someone who has neither experience with either type of person, it can easily feel inauthentic if done wrong, and I think that should hold true for media if it hasn't already.

 

[AndyTrevino]

Speaking of a gang war, and especially as this may be taking some inspiration from The Long Halloween, I'd really like to finally get an overall world-building arc of the old-school traditional mobsters like Falcone and Maroni being replaced with the "freaks" and the rise of characters like Joker, Penguin, Mad Hatter, whoever exactly is in this movie/series.

The Dark Knight had a little of that with Joker and Two-Face killing the mob bosses, but they have a chance to do a lot more with that idea, especially with the characters they're setting up here and the themes of evolution Reeves talked about.

I definitely get what you're saying, but I don't really think the rise of the more freakish villains will be THAT stylized. I'm sure they'll be mainly relegated to nicknames like real life criminals and mob bosses; Two-Face, Penguin, Joker, and Mad Hatter (slang for drug dealer) for instance would be, well, nicknames. Prominent nicknames, sure, but more along the lines of El Chapo for instance than full-on supervillain titles.

I'm kinda hoping for Joker to be the exception though. I like to think that he'd been flying under the radar for so long that any detailed records of whoever the hell he may have been beforehand just kind of faded into deep obscurity.

 

[AndyTrevino]

Honestly, I think that, if they're going to do the Red Hood Gang, then they should stick with it at least partially. After their leader becomes The Joker or something to that effect, then he starts making them paint smiley faces on their masks. I just think it's a bit more visually interesting than a bunch of guys in clown masks.

 

[shauner111]

 

[AndyTrevino]

View attachment 38735

Of course Gyllenhaal's name for instance would fit in just as well, but I feel like Caleb would look right at home alongside Dano, Farrell, and maaaaybe Keoghan (if those rumors turn out to be true). Dano and Keoghan in particular have had small but memorable roles in various movies, and I feel like this would continue that trend.
I know there are some fairly vocal naysayers regarding this fancast, but I love it.

 

[Boom]

View attachment 38735

Oh wow.

 

[Art Vandelay]

This

Reminds me of this

 

[hafizbat]

Speaking of a gang war, and especially as this may be taking some inspiration from The Long Halloween, I'd really like to finally get an overall world-building arc of the old-school traditional mobsters like Falcone and Maroni being replaced with the "freaks" and the rise of characters like Joker, Penguin, Mad Hatter, whoever exactly is in this movie/series.

The Dark Knight had a little of that with Joker and Two-Face killing the mob bosses, but they have a chance to do a lot more with that idea, especially with the characters they're setting up here and the themes of evolution Reeves talked about.

Yes please. I'd love for them to go with the idea that Batman is actually making Gotham even crazier.

I hope there's a tangible shift from Mobsters to actual supervillains. As you said, TDK touched on that but you could go a lot farther with it.

 

[AndyTrevino]

This

Reminds me of this

Aaaaaaaaaaaagh I can't unsee it now. Why do you always gotta do us like this

 

[AndyTrevino]

Yes please. I'd love for them to go with the idea that Batman is actually making Gotham even crazier.

I hope there's a tangible shift from Mobsters to actual supervillains. As you said, TDK touched on that but you could go a lot farther with it.

I don't think we're really gonna get actual supervillains this time around. Criminals, definitely. But probably not supervillains with dastardly plots, hand-wringing, etc.

 

[Boom]

CLJ is literally a Heath Ledger/Willem Dafoe hybrid.

 

[hafizbat]

I don't think we're really gonna get actual supervillains this time around. Criminals, definitely. But probably not supervillains with dastardly plots, hand-wringing, etc.

To me, the difference between a regular criminal and a supervillain is their motivation more than anything else. The Joker was a supervillain in TDK compared to guys like Maroni.