The Joker Thread - Part 1

[Wildcard]

It's so strange that Luthor, Joker, Batman, Superman...four of the most important characters feel more like different characters altogether in the DCEU, in disguise.

I don't get that feeling with Batman & Joker. Luthor and Superman? Sure.

 

[GothamBat]

Ok so Joker definitely needs to be in the GCS movie but I'm not sure if Leto would want to be another tangential, superficial role in a story as the Joker. I think he wants to be front and center from here on out. here's my suggestion: they can get around that by re-purposing the footage that was left on the cutting room floor for SS. he did say they had enough stuff for an entire joker movie.

We definitely know they cut scenes with Harley being joker's therapist, them kissing (when he asks for a machine gun) and that whole arkham scene in general. They cut out a lot of scenes to make Harley and Joker's relationship go from clear-cut abusive, to co-dependant and messed up but still loving so I think they probably have a scene where Harley and Joker have a falling out. That could make it so we can have the Joker in the movie without needing to make Jared play a fringe, subsidiary role/annoy him even more. It would be a win-win in the sense that it could put that footage to good use, show it to audiences who never got a chance to see it, make it serve a purpose story-wise, flesh out those scenes we only saw small snippets of and maybe even appease Leto who was salty that his work never saw the light of day. kind of like a peace offering of sorts. I'd personally really like to see those scenes fleshed out. It would kind of feel like when they re-visited the Battle of metropolis in BVS. familiar but new and interesting. I'd love it if GCS started off with the extended Harley and Joker Arkham sequence. Would be an awesome opening to the movie.

who knows? maybe the whole reason they held back from putting those scenes in the ultimate cut was because they planned to use the footage like I'm suggesting.

 

[odilonredon]

leto as joker is really inspired casting, it's a shame what they did with it and a huge monkeywrench for the cinematic batman universe going forward. it would be weird if they just ignore suicide squad and give us a totally unrelated, new version of him in future movies but i really feel like that's what they have to do if they don't recast. leto joker as is is unsalvageable imo.

 

[TheVileOne]

But what does it say about this Joker that Warner Bros. got skittish about showing Joker being abusive toward Harley Quinn? You know showing a bad guy doing depraved and horrible things to another human being...

 

[The Guard]

It says that after BVS backlash, they wanted more "fun" and less "dark".

Make no mistake, this Joker is still abusive. He's just abusive in more subtle ways in the theatrical cut than in the extended cut.

 

[Wildcard]

No matter how you slice it, strapping someone down and torturing/electroshocking them is as abusive as it gets.

 

[The Joker]

It falls flat when they don't show it. They didn't even include the footage of him giving her a slap across the face. So if they can't show him giving her a slap then there was no way they were going to show him giving her electroshock. His "abusiveness" was neutered into virtual non existence.

 

[hellblazer103]

I thought they did show the electro-shock, though... Or at least showed him starting to do it, then cut to another scene or whatever.

 

[Wildcard]

They did do the electro-shock. He's just nitpicking.

 

[The Joker]

They didn't show diddly squat. Even in the extended cut of that scene all we saw was him put the electro-shock probes to her head, and she flinches for half a second before it quickly cuts away to all those annoying trippy rainbow colored images.

Nitpicking my ass. If seeing Harley flinch for half a second is showing her getting electro-shock torture, then I'm the King of England. If you want to see a Jared Leto movie that shows electro-shock, go watch Requiem for a Dream.

 

[TheVileOne]

It says that after BVS backlash, they wanted more "fun" and less "dark".

Make no mistake, this Joker is still abusive. He's just abusive in more subtle ways in the theatrical cut than in the extended cut.

How is that?

 

[The Guard]

How is what?

There were all kinds of rumors and reports that WB wanted to "lighten up" SQUAD with more humor and inject more action after responses to BVS, and the way it's edited and the way it was presented in marketing overall certainly suggests that was their goal (Which seems to have worked).

In the theatre cut, The Joker is less overtly verbally and physically abusive than he is in the "director's" cut.

 

[Greens]

The Joker, master of subtlety.

 

[TheVileOne]

How is what?

There were all kinds of rumors and reports that WB wanted to "lighten up" SQUAD with more humor and inject more action after responses to BVS, and the way it's edited and the way it was presented in marketing overall certainly suggests that was their goal (Which seems to have worked).

In the theatre cut, The Joker is less overtly verbally and physically abusive than he is in the "director's" cut.

In what ways is he still abusive toward her?

 

[shauner111]

Everything Leto did was overcooked.

 

[The Guard]

In what ways is he still abusive toward her?

Aside from the less than subtle electroshock therapy and constantly putting her in danger?

So you've got:

-Manipulation, making her jump into the acid, get him things for his escape, etc.
-Torture, via the electroshock.
-He seems to be making her dance/sleep with associates. At point point he "whistles" for her like a dog.
-He deliberately places her in danger, putting her in the middle of gunfights, and intentionally driving their car off a bridge into the water. He basically wants to see how far she will go for him throughout the whole film.

 

[The Joker]

-Manipulation, making her jump into the acid, get him things for his escape, etc.

He doesn't make her do anything. She does it of her own free will because she loves him.

-Torture, via the electroshock.

That's the only legit one on your list. She is literally strapped down and forced to endure it. This was before she became his gf.

-He seems to be making her dance/sleep with associates. At point point he "whistles" for her like a dog.

There's no indication he is making her do that. In fact total opposite. Harley is clearly enjoying doing the dancing.

-He deliberately places her in danger, putting her in the middle of gunfights, and intentionally driving their car off a bridge into the water. He basically wants to see how far she will go for him throughout the whole film.

No, she puts herself in danger by choosing to be his criminal accomplice. Unless you're a total idiot, you know that if you choose to be with the Joker, you're going to be deliberately putting your life in danger. He's like the worst criminal in Gotham. Nobody forced Harley to go joy riding with him, or egging him to go even faster "Come on, puddin', do it". Or opening fire at Batman. Or escaping from Waller in the middle of a fire fight to join him etc.

She did all of this of her own choice. As Waller said, she's crazier and more fearless than he is.

 

[Wildcard]

Aside from the less than subtle electroshock therapy and constantly putting her in danger?

So you've got:

-Manipulation, making her jump into the acid, get him things for his escape, etc.
-Torture, via the electroshock.
-He seems to be making her dance/sleep with associates. At point point he "whistles" for her like a dog.
-He deliberately places her in danger, putting her in the middle of gunfights, and intentionally driving their car off a bridge into the water. He basically wants to see how far she will go for him throughout the whole film.

Per usual, a legitimate list of examples are put in place and still refuted.

 

[Hurm...]

Wow, almost like it's being refuted on a discussion forum or something.

 

[shauner111]

It's not a legitimate list lol.

Guard is the DCEU guard dog. He lives up to his name.

 

[Wildcard]

Wow, almost like it's being refuted on a discussion forum or something.

Still seems more like nitpicking to me but call it as you wish.

 

[TheVileOne]

none of those examples are legitimate examples of abuse. Suicide Squad pretty much establishes that Joker never really MADE Harley Quinn do any of those things. He never forces her or makes her dive into a vat of chemicals. She does that of her own volition!

 

[The Guard]

none of those examples are legitimate examples of abuse.

There is both emotional and physical abuse in those examples.

 

[Wildcard]

There is both emotional and physical abuse in those examples.

Not to mention he does actually make Harley jump into the vat. Did he push her in ala the New 52 comics? Maybe not, but he goaded her into jumping (to get rid of her, mind you) and she did it. Then he changed his mind and decided to go in after her, even though his original intention was to let her die.

Restraining her against her force and repeatedly performing electroshock therapy counts as physical abuse. There is emotional abuse displayed in the scene where she chases him down and he completely rejects her. The implication given is that wasn't the first time he had done so, either since she was pining very hard.

Yes, Joker and Harley's relationship here is cleaner than pretty much any other iteration but there are absolutely still examples of emotional and physical abuse.

 

[The Joker]

The only legitimate example of him enacting abuse on her is in the electroshock scene where he forces her to endure it. I wouldn't even count it as an example of an abusive Joker and Harley relationship because that was done before she became his crazy hench wench gf. The rest of those examples are all done by Harley's own free will because she is willing to do anything for him. That's not abuse. That's displays of how crazy and obsessed Harley is with him.

She is not a complete moron. She knew what she was getting into when she decided to pair up with the deadliest most notorious criminal in Gotham. Claims that Joker is putting her life in danger are baloney. Harley was signing up to have her life be in danger the second she decided to embark on a criminal's life with him. Her decision again.