Justice League The Justice League General & Speculation Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 50

[flickchick85]

I ain't about to go to bat for Schumacher but he was definitely trying something different with his take, lol.

 

[Erzengel]

Yeah Schumacher was a response to Batman Returns being too dark.

 

[MewMewTwo]

I think there should be a little more oversight and not a repeat of giving someone like Snyder carte blanche on a BvS movie.

They are the only ones to blame, they wanted mainstream, forgettable blockbusters that would made all ages happy, yet they let Snyder, a director that does the exact opposite, to be in control.

I'm sure both Wan and Patty will have more complex stories in their sequels, even Nolan's BB had much simpler story than TDK.

Doubt it.

yea i think WB was probably more surprised about the critic and audience reaction instead.
snyder made the movie that they, WB, wanted.

imo, it's just the subsequent course correct with JL that made things worse - when the studio thought it would make things better.

I am sure they did, and it was a pretty dumb on their part.
They wanted to copy the mcu, make "light and fun" generic, humorous bubblegum superhero movies, but they gave the movies to Snyder who made serious, dark, mature and complex movies that ask you to be paying attention.

Then they desperately tried to make JL as much as a mcu movie as possible, but it was too late.

It's possible WB did improve the reception JL might have gotten, though, with their meddling. JL had better critics scores than BVS, and arguably better audience reaction. And didn't it have better legs than BVS?

JL is obectively a worse movie than BvS though, in every single aspect. It had better reception/reaction because is way more simple movie that is easy to digest so it pleases more casual audiences

If you want to debate that Snyder had directions to establish an extended universe or that he had to shorten his movie by a half an hour, but it's been reported that he was given free reign on BvS.

Delivering a movie that was butchered by half an hour to make less sense i seriously doubt it was a choice from Snyder, as it probably was the JL cameos too, that was made to fit more screenings in theaters, but it was insane that they thought a 3 hour dark/serious/mature/complex/layered superhero movie was gonna do as well as an mcu movie which are the exact opposite.

I think that's fair. I do agree with you in that the post BvS movies are a bit lighter, simple (or less convoluted) possibly. The later movies did try to, I guess, pander to mainstream audiences, but that's kind of what DC needed anyway. Since their previous movies were so divisive, they needed something a bit more palatable for people to take in. To me, and I'm sure for you, there is something special when it came to the earlier DCEU films. They were more idiosyncratic for the most part. They tried new approaches to a genre I was already starting to tire out on. Also to me, they felt more cinematic. I hope to see WB move back over a bit and embrace those things again since they are saying that they want more director driven movies.

Yeah, but that is my problem: i dont want them dumbing down the brand like some others companies do *cough cough* just so they can make more money by appealing to the lowest possible denominator, we can have both a good AND succesful movie!

Man of Steel was an awesome introduction to the DCCU, and BvS while it was trying to rush to JL and it was packed with too many stuff, was also good, and yes they are special, they are not generic blockbusters, and after several years we are still talking about them a lot more than any other superhero movie (and Watchmen movie anniversary is coming too!)

Sadly, i doubt this "director driven" mentaility is gonna get far at WB, they said that before too.

Edit: The problem of WB was that they did not trusted their own vision and have exagerated and emotional reactions to a bunch of random people who did not like the movies because of (most of the time) non sensical reasons, besides now if you make a superhero movie that is not filled with jokes you are accused of not making the movie "fun" just because is not like the mcu, it makes no sense.

 

[Nemeres]

I don't think the "heftier" type of superhero film is dead. Things are a bit cyclical. The last few years focused somewhat on giving appeal to new properties (WW, BP) on one side, big crossovers on the other. The focus might later turn back to the "ambitious and more serious sequel" approach. Not everyone's take will be as literally dark and po-faced as Snyder's, but you get films like Black Panther making open commentary on racism and a tragic R-rated drama out of Wolverine. The openness to more TDK-ish fare is there, and studios will make it their focus again at some point.

With Batman and Superman, the JL build-up as a whole, I'd simply say it's what happens when you give a property to Bad Idea Men. There's always some audience blaming involved in justifying the reception to Snyder's trilogy, which I think just misses the mark, historically speaking. With Shyamalan's Last Airbender, it was supposedly People who couldn't stomach 20-plus episodes being condensed into a 2-hour span, and People couldn't understand that what works on animation won't always translate to live-action. With Emmerich's Godzilla, People were unfair to the new Goji design, and supposedly it was the marketing that got too big, and it worked against the movie. So on and so forth. At some point, it comes down to the fact that it wasn't what it could have been. It could've been what it wanted to be, but better. The audience responded accordingly, and not liking sth doesn't make them wrong.

 

[kguillou]

It would have been better had Snyder and Goyer just made their Superman trilogy and not WB had not stepped in to tell Snyder to make Batman vs Superman/ Death of Superman/Introduction to Wonder Woman/ Justice League happen in such a short amount of time. I do not care what anyone tells me, that was WARNER BROS idea. Zack signed on for Superman movies and there is verbal proof from Zack and Goyer’s own mouths pre MoS to prove it.

Granted, did Snyder fight them on it? No probably not. If I get permission to use Batman I’m gonna jump at the opportunity but it was not in his initial plan/itinerary when he signed onboard to make Superman.

 

[The Guard]

JL is obectively a worse movie than BvS though, in every single aspect. It had better reception/reaction because is way more simple movie that is easy to digest so it pleases more casual audiences

Eh. It's certainly not as ambitious or weighty, in terms of themes, but I think it has some pretty solid character and story work. It's certainly a more "cohesive" film overall.

And yes, it pleases more casual audiences. Which is clearly what WB needed to do, as casual audiences rejected BVS.

 

[MewMewTwo]

Eh. It's certainly not as ambitious or weighty, in terms of themes, but I think it has some pretty solid character and story work. It's certainly a more "cohesive" film overall.

And yes, it pleases more casual audiences. Which is clearly what WB needed to do, as casual audiences rejected BVS.

Not really, they put jokes over substance, they did it with all the characters and the story itself, any character and story work that was there was thrown out the window with reshoots that are constantly giving the feeling of watching two movies at the same time. It is certainly a much less cohesive movie overall, is a complete mess.

No, what WB needs to do is good movies, if they want to make money, yeah then make all the crap movies that you want that i will wait to watch them on tv, but if they want to make good movies that are gonna remembered and talked about for years to come, they need to focus in making a movie instead of just pleasing casual audiences that are gonna reject anything that asks them to use a little of their brain and pay attention.

 

[Tra-El]

It would have been better had Snyder and Goyer just made their Superman trilogy and not WB had not stepped in to tell Snyder to make Batman vs Superman/ Death of Superman/Introduction to Wonder Woman/ Justice League happen in such a short amount of time. I do not care what anyone tells me, that was WARNER BROS idea. Zack signed on for Superman movies and there is verbal proof from Zack and Goyer’s own mouths pre MoS to prove it.

Granted, did Snyder fight them on it? No probably not. If I get permission to use Batman I’m gonna jump at the opportunity but it was not in his initial plan/itinerary when he signed onboard to make Superman.

Zack didn't fight back, but him and Goyer were repeatedly saying that "In order for the DC Universe to take shape, Superman has to get his house in order first.." which points to Zack planning a true MoS sequel that would have tidied up all the loose ends of getting to know this character. Instead, they moved even further away from Superman, in his own universe and the foundation ultimately crumbled.

It's just ironic. Man of Steel was supposed to be the start of Superman's standalone trilogy. Instead, WB chased the shared universe concept, mis-fired and now it's the Superman franchise in limbo. He took the fall to make WB realize that standalones are the way to go, paving way for Wonder Woman, Batman and Aquaman to have their respective trilogies in that format while Supes lays dormat. Just irony.

 

[kguillou]

Not really, they put jokes over substance, they did it with all the characters and the story itself, any character and story work that was there was thrown out the window with reshoots that are constantly giving the feeling of watching two movies at the same time. It is certainly a much less cohesive movie overall, is a complete mess.

No, what WB needs to do is good movies, if they want to make money, yeah then make all the crap movies that you want that i will wait to watch them on tv, but if they want to make good movies that are gonna remembered and talked about for years to come, they need to focus in making a movie instead of just pleasing casual audiences that are gonna reject anything that asks them to use a little of their brain and pay attention.

There has to be a balance though, in order for these movies to be successful, casual audiences need to like them and wanna see them with their kids over and over again. You and I love BvS but thats not a movie your average family walks out of happy and cheering. Infinity War killed off a bunch of popular characters and had kids everywhere crying at the end but made 2 billion dollars because they struck a balance, they made the movie fun and crowd pleasing up until those final 10 minutes.

 

[Tra-El]

WB operated that way as a studio. They took pride by being the grounded, real and darker studio to pump out those tonal films. They even bragged by being the opposite of the MCU at one point. They got cold feet on their own operation and pulled the plug on something they exactly wanted. Everybody involved is to blame. But just like anything else, it starts at the top and that's the studio.

 

[Jekecy]

It would have been better had Snyder and Goyer just made their Superman trilogy and not WB had not stepped in to tell Snyder to make Batman vs Superman/ Death of Superman/Introduction to Wonder Woman/ Justice League happen in such a short amount of time. I do not care what anyone tells me, that was WARNER BROS idea. Zack signed on for Superman movies and there is verbal proof from Zack and Goyer’s own mouths pre MoS to prove it.

Granted, did Snyder fight them on it? No probably not. If I get permission to use Batman I’m gonna jump at the opportunity but it was not in his initial plan/itinerary when he signed onboard to make Superman.

There's no way in hell Snyder is sticking to Superman for a decade, when his favorite hero is right at the sidelines ripe for picking. There's at least two videos I've watched of him (before getting MOS) bigging up Bats and being indifferent to Superman. This was 100% the "get friendly with the best friend to get to the hot girl" move.

Plus there's this tweet from Jay:

 

[Spider-Fan]

JL began shooting a month after BvS in 2016 and JL 2 was cancelled in December of 2016. Who knows when the Studio reviewed the "unwatchable" version of Snyder's movie. But since things were already in motion for shooting JL in terms of sets, actors, production etc., Snyder at the very least started off shooting JL as if it was a 1 of 2. The question is when did the Studio step in to turn the Snyder movie into a 1 of 1. I think it's logical to say it was after the rumors of the "unwatchable" cut and Whedon was brought on to try and condense Snyder's movie. So there's a very good chance Snyder's movie could have well been a cliffhanger and not a finale.

Most accounts I have seen indicate that Snyder's JL1 would have ended with Steppenwolf going back to Apokolips and Darkseid would pop up at the very end of the movie for a tease, but ultimately the plot of Steppenwolf vs the JL was going to have concluded. So it would have had a tease no worse than The Avengers post-credit scene. I don't think it was ever 2 halves of the same movie. It seemed to be Movie 1 - Steppenwolf, Movie 2 - Darkseid the entire time.

 

[MewMewTwo]

There has to be a balance though, in order for these movies to be successful, casual audiences need to like them and wanna see them with their kids over and over again. You and I love BvS but thats not a movie your average family walks out of happy and cheering. Infinity War killed off a bunch of popular characters and had kids everywhere crying at the end but made 2 billion dollars because they struck a balance, they made the movie fun and crowd pleasing up until those final 10 minutes.

Yeah sure, and The Dark Knight is the perfect example that you can both make a good movie, a good adaptation, AND get critical and financial success, it is possible if they put enough effort and talent in it.
And that was not a kids movie, not all superhero movies should be for kids, it would be nice to actually get an adult movie for once. Infinity War did not totally got the balance right (ironic huh?) but mostly it did, is a movie for everyone.
I think they can make a, not just for adults, but not for kids movie and still very succesful.

WB operated that way as a studio. They took pride by being the grounded, real and darker studio to pump out those tonal films. They even bragged by being the opposite of the MCU at one point. They got cold feet on their own operation and pulled the plug on something they exactly wanted. Everybody involved is to blame. But just like anything else, it starts at the top and that's the studio.

Snyder has yet to make a truly bad movie, so i doubt he has anything to do with it, i doubt that he wanted to rush towards JL too. Is all the studio.

 

[kguillou]

I hear what your saying. For the record I’d also like to see DC continue to try to make more adult alternatives that we’ee noy getting elsewhere, which is why JOKER and the R rated BIRDS OF PREY are appealing to me. I think theres a big market for that kind of conic book movie fare. Not everything needs to be dark, gritty and mature but if the property and story is appropriate dont shy away from it, go for it.

 

[chintai80]

I hear what your saying. For the record I’d like to see DC contiune to try to make more adult cbms which is why JOKER and the R rated BIRDS OF PREY are appealing to me. I think theres a big market for that kind of conic book movie fare.

do u think that WB is now shifting their gameplan to something similar to what fox studios was doing?

like how they had more adult-level cbms like logan, deadpool...while slowly phasing out their mainstream x-men movies?

like wb will have r-rated joker, bop, while they have phased out any JL plans. then continue with their solos and see where that takes them...

 

[matt47]

It would have been better had Snyder and Goyer just made their Superman trilogy and not WB had not stepped in to tell Snyder to make Batman vs Superman/ Death of Superman/Introduction to Wonder Woman/ Justice League happen in such a short amount of time. I do not care what anyone tells me, that was WARNER BROS idea. Zack signed on for Superman movies and there is verbal proof from Zack and Goyer’s own mouths pre MoS to prove it.

Granted, did Snyder fight them on it? No probably not. If I get permission to use Batman I’m gonna jump at the opportunity but it was not in his initial plan/itinerary when he signed onboard to make Superman.

I still think a straight up Batman vs Superman movie could've been an awesome sequel to Man of Steel. The Black zero scene with Bruce was a great opening. But then the story got convoluted with the points you mentioned.

 

[Patchwork Man]

WB operated that way as a studio. They took pride by being the grounded, real and darker studio to pump out those tonal films. They even bragged by being the opposite of the MCU at one point. They got cold feet on their own operation and pulled the plug on something they exactly wanted. Everybody involved is to blame. But just like anything else, it starts at the top and that's the studio.

They sure did. "The darker alternative." They threw it into reverse like Snake Plissken in the station wagon in Escape From New York. I'm glad Jenkins and Wan have Zack's back. A lot of people do.

 

[The Guard]

Not really, they put jokes over substance, they did it with all the characters and the story itself, any character and story work that was there was thrown out the window with reshoots that are constantly giving the feeling of watching two movies at the same time. It is certainly a much less cohesive movie overall, is a complete mess.

I think you are confusing "I didn't get to see the story I wanted" for "There was no story at all".

That's just not the case.

The villain was weak. But there was a very solid story and suplot for a sub two hour film, and good character work as well.

There were a couple of really dumb jokes and visual gags in JUSTICE LEAGUE. A few of them were misplaced, or in poor taste. The movie was hardly chock full of them. There was an unfortunate issue with Cavill's effects.

It may not be the movie or the tone that you wanted, but from an actual writing standpoint, the statement that it is a less cohesive movie than BVS is inaccurate, and that's coming from someone who really liked both versions of BVS.

No, what WB needs to do is good movies, if they want to make money, yeah then make all the crap movies that you want that i will wait to watch them on tv, but if they want to make good movies that are gonna remembered and talked about for years to come, they need to focus in making a movie instead of just pleasing casual audiences that are gonna reject anything that asks them to use a little of their brain and pay attention.

That's not the way Hollywood works. If people don't like your movies enough, the movies will fail.

WB does want to make money.

Well crafted movies don't always make money or find an audience.

Plenty of less than stellar movies are talked about for years to come because people like them.

 

[MewMewTwo]

I think you are confusing "I didn't get to see the story I wanted" for "There was no story at all".

That's just not the case.

The villain was weak. But there was a very solid story and suplot for a sub two hour film, and good character work as well.

There were a couple of really dumb jokes and visual gags in JUSTICE LEAGUE. A few of them were misplaced, or in poor taste. The movie was hardly chock full of them. There was an unfortunate issue with Cavill's effects.

It may not be the movie or the tone that you wanted, but from an actual writing standpoint, the statement that it is a less cohesive movie than BVS is inaccurate, and that's coming from someone who really liked both versions of BVS.



That's not the way Hollywood works. If people don't like your movies enough, the movies will fail.

WB does want to make money.

Well crafted movies don't always make money or find an audience.

Plenty of less than stellar movies are talked about for years to come because people like them.

I never said there was no story, just that they forced scenes with a totally different tone over it, resulting in a diluted story from what we were gonna get. The story was *worse* because of studio meddling.

I honestly dont see what you see, i saw brief glimpses of a good movie with a good story and good characters in the theatrical cut, but that is all that they were, brief glimpses, we got a deformed story and characters.

The jokes were awful, most of them from reshoots, some decent from before.

I think i am not understanding at all your point, how is it BvS less cohesive than JL, which is practically two movies into one?
BvS is leading somewhere from the very first scene, JL is a frankenstein monster, that it also has a certain coherence if you imagine that is one movie, but when you are watching a scene and the scene is interrupted by another scene with the same actors shot in the same place with the same clothes and everything but feels totally different in tone, there is where it loses the "cohesive" part, if you get what i mean which is kinda hard to explain.

Yes i know, WB wanted their own franchise of sucessful blockbusters, crazy to think the same studio that gave us some of the best hollywood movies in years like Mad Max Fury Road and Blade Runner 2049, movies that are practically non-comercial non-mainstream movies, made such a mess out of a very easily sold idea.

They sure did. "The darker alternative." They threw it into reverse like Snake Plissken in the station wagon in Escape From New York. I'm glad Jenkins and Wan have Zack's back. A lot of people do.

Not only that, but both WW and AM have a clear Snyder influence in the way they are shot, they were all in this together before the studio ruined everything (how scummy is to have "directed by Zack Snyder" in the Justice League movie by the way)

DC was always darker, it is more mythological, while Marvel is more "cheerful" (but the base of Marvel and all superhero stories is tragedy) and human. I still cannot believe how WB ruined everything, we could have both DC and Marvel shared universe just like in the comic books, instead we have a total mess.

 

[MewMewTwo]

I hear what your saying. For the record I’d also like to see DC continue to try to make more adult alternatives that we’ee noy getting elsewhere, which is why JOKER and the R rated BIRDS OF PREY are appealing to me. I think theres a big market for that kind of conic book movie fare. Not everything needs to be dark, gritty and mature but if the property and story is appropriate dont shy away from it, go for it.

Sorry to be me the one who tells you this, but Birds of Prey it turns out is not gonna be R, apparently it never was, look it up. I dont think the movies have to be rated R precisely, but they do have to be mature and serious, not that there should not be humor at all in it.

 

[Tra-El]

There's no way in hell Snyder is sticking to Superman for a decade, when his favorite hero is right at the sidelines ripe for picking. There's at least two videos I've watched of him (before getting MOS) bigging up Bats and being indifferent to Superman. This was 100% the "get friendly with the best friend to get to the hot girl" move.

Plus there's this tweet from Jay:

We don't know when those conversations took place. By the time MoS's release rolled around, it seemed like they were putting the final touches on moving forward with BvS since it only took them a month in MoS's release to announce it at SDCC. I really do believe that once Zack finished filming MoS, they started talking sequel. I think Zack had a solid plan in place for MoS2 until they started talking shared universe and having Kryptonite being delivered to Wayne Manor at the end of MoS2. Once WB heard that, mixed in with the studios desire to FOREVER try to have a Superman vs Batman movie was when they started talking more and getting giddy with going ahead and convincing Zack that Batman v Superman was finally going to take full flight.

 

[Jekecy]

We don't know when those conversations took place. By the time MoS's release rolled around, it seemed like they were putting the final touches on moving forward with BvS since it only took them a month in MoS's release to announce it at SDCC. I really do believe that once Zack finished filming MoS, they started talking sequel. I think Zack had a solid plan in place for MoS2 until they started talking shared universe and having Kryptonite being delivered to Wayne Manor at the end of MoS2. Once WB heard that, mixed in with the studios desire to FOREVER try to have a Superman vs Batman movie was when they started talking more and getting giddy with going ahead and convincing Zack that Batman v Superman was finally going to take full flight.

We know at the latest it was early '13 as there's concept art of the Batmobile and Batcave around that time.

I don't doubt WB were more than willing to "push" Zack towards a shared universe, but by Zack's own admission it was he who introduced Batman into the conversation. And things just snowballed from there, as I'm sure any DC fan's would when given the keys to the kingdom.

There has been zero talk about any MOS trilogy from what I recall. Feel free to cite those sources if I'm wrong.

 

[Kevin_28]

They sure did. "The darker alternative." They threw it into reverse like Snake Plissken in the station wagon in Escape From New York. I'm glad Jenkins and Wan have Zack's back. A lot of people do.

Heh. I remember when Ben got in a little hot water over implying that the MCU was glib.

 

[kguillou]

This is all going to make a really interesting book one day.

 

[Iceman]

Yeah Schumacher was a response to Batman Returns being too dark.

Which was dumb as it wasn’t too dark.