Justice League The Justice League General & Speculation Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 50

[Erzengel]

And thats the problem. I think for Zack, this movie was it. He knew this was his last hurray so he made this to be his Return of the King, a big long grand finale but the studio and Whedon needed to change it to Fellowship: a springboard for bigger and better movies down the road.

JL began shooting a month after BvS in 2016 and JL 2 was cancelled in December of 2016. Who knows when the Studio reviewed the "unwatchable" version of Snyder's movie. But since things were already in motion for shooting JL in terms of sets, actors, production etc., Snyder at the very least started off shooting JL as if it was a 1 of 2. The question is when did the Studio step in to turn the Snyder movie into a 1 of 1. I think it's logical to say it was after the rumors of the "unwatchable" cut and Whedon was brought on to try and condense Snyder's movie. So there's a very good chance Snyder's movie could have well been a cliffhanger and not a finale.

 

[kguillou]

JL began shooting a month after BvS in 2016 and JL 2 was cancelled in December of 2016. Who knows when the Studio reviewed the "unwatchable" version of Snyder's movie. But since things were already in motion for shooting JL in terms of sets, actors, production etc., Snyder at the very least started off shooting JL as if it was a 1 of 2. The question is when did the Studio step in to turn the Snyder movie into a 1 of 1. I think it's logical to say it was after the rumors of the "unwatchable" cut and Whedon was brought on to try and condense Snyder's movie. So there's a very good chance Snyder's movie could have well been a cliffhanger and not a finale.

Actually that decision was made early and theres evidence of it. Remember there was the journalist set visit summer 2016, and there he himself told the journalists that this was a self contained movie that would have a conclusive end. When Zack started filming it was already condensed and determined there would be no JL 2. Also i dont think JL filmed a month after BvS. They went into pre production but not principle photography.

I think there were a couple of months after BvS where Geoff johns stepped in and reworked the script with Snyder and Terrio to condense it to one JL movie before photgraphy started.

 

[frankgutz]

Yeah, is all on WB, but whedon is not precisely the best of filmmakers, as Age of Ultron proves (which i believe he was kinda forced to do anyway)

The DCCU would have been fixed by WB simply not ruining the movies. The butchered cuts of BvS, SS, and JL made the mess it is today.

In the mcu, from phase 2 onwards they went totally overboard, 100% over the top with the forced humor (not that there was some bad forced jokes before, like in Avengers). The climax of that was Thor Ragnarok, the worst mcu movie and one of the worst superhero movies ever made. It really shows the hands disney has in Marvel movies, even Infinity War could not escape having out of place jokes.

You are totally right, now if we do not get a superhero with lots of jokes people say that the movie is not "fun" or "good", just because it does not copy the mcu formula, that is what got Aquaman its success.

Snyder does not makes movies for the general audiences. The general audiences dont think, they want to be spoon fed, lots of special effects and shallow, soulless spectacle, is all they care about. And certainly does not make movies for kids, at all, but that is a good thing, not all superhero movies should be comedies for children..

Agree 100% with some suff u said

Nah, Wonder Woman briefly touched on horrors of War, the plight of people affected by War, the themes of how a man is his worst enemy and also gave the supporting characters a bit of back story. If WW was indeed like an MCU movie, the World War 1 would have been shown exactly like it was shown in Captain America The First Avenger, namely CA's heroics in World War 2, a theme music and a montage.

Aquaman's story took inspiration from 80's adventure movies and King Arthur's story, while briefly talking about the environmental destruction of Oceans, not something I have seen in MCU movies. Having said that, few MCU movies too have some themes and sub-texts (for example - Iron Man 1)

WW and AM were great tbh and i dont see them as MCU films, yes, they were lighter than what Snyder did

 

[heatvision38]

Yeah, is all on WB, but whedon is not precisely the best of filmmakers, as Age of Ultron proves (which i believe he was kinda forced to do anyway)

The DCCU would have been fixed by WB simply not ruining the movies. The butchered cuts of BvS, SS, and JL made the mess it is today.



In the mcu, from phase 2 onwards they went totally overboard, 100% over the top with the forced humor (not that there was some bad forced jokes before, like in Avengers). The climax of that was Thor Ragnarok, the worst mcu movie and one of the worst superhero movies ever made. It really shows the hands disney has in Marvel movies, even Infinity War could not escape having out of place jokes.

You are totally right, now if we do not get a superhero with lots of jokes people say that the movie is not "fun" or "good", just because it does not copy the mcu formula, that is what got Aquaman its success.

Snyder does not makes movies for the general audiences. The general audiences dont think, they want to be spoon fed, lots of special effects and shallow, soulless spectacle, is all they care about. And certainly does not make movies for kids, at all, but that is a good thing, not all superhero movies should be comedies for children.

I would have to see what is that you call "Snyder cultist" though, he is one of the most attacked, underrated, and misunderstood directors today.

Wonder Woman was like an mcu movie, it was made by the studio with parameters, not the director, we saw the same thing with Aquaman, both movies were generic as hell with no soul just trying to do what the mcu is doing.

I was going to Like this message until the last paragraph. I agree with the other stuff you said, but I don't think WW or AM were soulless. Were they different than what Snyder did? Sure, but they also were not the same as Marvel. I would say they were closer to what Snyder has done in terms of scope and drama (to the degree that they went there) than most Marvel solo movies outside of Iron Man, Winter Soldier, and Black Panther.

So, you get a 8/10 of a Like from me.

 

[Erzengel]

Actually that decision was made early and theres evidence of it. Remember there was the journalist set visit summer 2016, and there he himself told the journalists that this was a self contained movie that would have a conclusive end. When Zack started filming it was already condensed and determined there would be no JL 2. Also i dont think JL filmed a month after BvS. They went into pre production but not principle photography.

I think there were a couple of months after BvS where Geoff johns stepped in and reworked the script with Snyder and Terrio to condense it to one JL movie before photgraphy started.

Justice League begins shooting April 11, 2016.
Exclusive: 'Justice League' will begin shooting in April

May 17, 2016, Johns and Bergs to produce
'Batman v. Superman' Fallout: Warner Bros. Shakes Up Executive Roles (Exclusive)

June 3, 2016, Johns confirmed that the movie was called JL which may or may not have been an indication that 2 was not going to be done. But it wasn't formally pushed back until December.

The first JL trailer in a hope to bring back the fans was July 23, 2016.

So it could have been at the very least a month of shooting JL before WB and or Johns interfered. At least that's what the rumors I'm reading.

 

[MewMewTwo]

I was going to Like this message until the last paragraph. I agree with the other stuff you said, but I don't think WW or AM were soulless. Were they different than what Snyder did? Sure, but they also were not the same as Marvel. I would say they were closer to what Snyder has done in terms of scope and drama (to the degree that they went there) than most Marvel solo movies outside of Iron Man, Winter Soldier, and Black Panther.

So, you get a 8/10 of a Like from me.

I found both WW and AM to be the studios pandering to a wider audience than something like BvS, they were lighter in tone and with more simple stories, with no particular distinguishable characteristics, specially Aquaman, a movie that has a completely mediocre and generic script but Wan directions elevates to a good spectacle.
They do are way more darker and mature than anything the mcu has ever done so far though, and they have more drama because they are not busy trying to hamfist jokes in every scene. But i found them both to be generic "superhero origins" movies we already saw a thousand times before.

 

[Tra-El]

WW: June 2020
Bats: June 2021

How about Big Blue June 2022 to round out the Trinity June yearly tentpoles k thanks.

 

[Herolee10]

WW: June 2020
Bats: June 2021

How about Big Blue June 2022 to round out the Trinity June yearly tentpoles k thanks.

So Warner Bros sets a date for a movie about DC's pets but still stays idle about Superman, The Flash, and Green Lantern.

 

[Aurakles]

On the bright side Superman will probably appear in Super-Pets.

 

[Da-Scribe]

So Warner Bros sets a date for a movie about DC's pets but still stays idle about Superman, The Flash, and Green Lantern.

I don’t and will never see why those need to be a priority. I’m actually glad we’re getting lesser known characters and weirder projects on screen.

 

[Kevin_28]

I found both WW and AM to be the studios pandering to a wider audience than something like BvS, they were lighter in tone and with more simple stories, with no particular distinguishable characteristics, specially Aquaman, a movie that has a completely mediocre and generic script but Wan directions elevates to a good spectacle.
They do are way more darker and mature than anything the mcu has ever done so far though, and they have more drama because they are not busy trying to hamfist jokes in every scene. But i found them both to be generic "superhero origins" movies we already saw a thousand times before.

I think that's fair. I do agree with you in that the post BvS movies are a bit lighter, simple (or less convoluted) possibly. The later movies did try to, I guess, pander to mainstream audiences, but that's kind of what DC needed anyway. Since their previous movies were so divisive, they needed something a bit more palatable for people to take in. To me, and I'm sure for you, there is something special when it came to the earlier DCEU films. They were more idiosyncratic for the most part. They tried new approaches to a genre I was already starting to tire out on. Also to me, they felt more cinematic. I hope to see WB move back over a bit and embrace those things again since they are saying that they want more director driven movies.

 

[Erzengel]

I hope to see WB move back over a bit and embrace those things again since they are saying that they want more director driven movies.

I think there should be a little more oversight and not a repeat of giving someone like Snyder carte blanche on a BvS movie.

 

[Micromind]

I'm sure both Wan and Patty will have more complex stories in their sequels, even Nolan's BB had much simpler story than TDK.

 

[Kevin_28]

I think there should be a little more oversight and not a repeat of giving someone like Snyder carte blanche on a BvS movie.

Uh granted. Hence why Walter Hamada is there. Though, we've also seen what happens when they take oversight too far, and that's what led to the quote about going back to director driven movies. That would also open the door for more directors who said they didn't want to consider CBM's because they don't provide them the freedom they want. I remember hearing creative freedom being a sticking point in contract negotiations, particularly with Reeves.

 

[Da-Scribe]

People make it seem like BvS was made in some vacuum and WB had no clue until post-production wrapped. They knew exactly what kinda movie they were getting and it was exactly what they wanted. It's not like Snyder just went rogue.

 

[Erzengel]

Uh granted. Hence why Walter Hamada is there. Though, we've also seen what happens when they take oversight too far, and that's what led to the quote about going back to director driven movies. That would also open the door for more directors who said they didn't want to consider CBM's because they don't provide them the freedom they want. I remember hearing creative freedom being a sticking point in contract negotiations, particularly with Reeves.

I never really read anywhere that Hamada was a comic book guy, so outside of saying, hey don't overshoot the budget or that sounds like/doesn't sound like it'll make a good story, I'm not sure what type of overseeing he may do.

And WB has 2 speeds, either they give power to directors see Burton, Nolan, Snyder or they step in and mess things up like they did with Batman Forever, SS, JL. So they have done both over the years.

People make it seem like BvS was made in some vacuum and WB had no clue until post-production wrapped. They knew exactly what kinda movie they were getting and it was exactly what they wanted. It's not like Snyder just went rogue.

They were in the, trust in the director, phase.

 

[chintai80]

People make it seem like BvS was made in some vacuum and WB had no clue until post-production wrapped. They knew exactly what kinda movie they were getting and it was exactly what they wanted. It's not like Snyder just went rogue.

yea i think WB was probably more surprised about the critic and audience reaction instead.
snyder made the movie that they, WB, wanted.

imo, it's just the subsequent course correct with JL that made things worse - when the studio thought it would make things better.

 

[The Guard]

It's possible WB did improve the reception JL might have gotten, though, with their meddling. JL had better critics scores than BVS, and arguably better audience reaction. And didn't it have better legs than BVS?

 

[heatvision38]

I never really read anywhere that Hamada was a comic book guy, so outside of saying, hey don't overshoot the budget or that sounds like/doesn't sound like it'll make a good story, I'm not sure what type of overseeing he may do.

And WB has 2 speeds, either they give power to directors see Burton, Nolan, Snyder or they step in and mess things up like they did with Batman Forever, SS, JL. So they have done both over the years.


They were in the, trust in the director, phase.

Except that they didn't. They were more like in the "trust the direct" but actually meddle phase.

 

[Erzengel]

Except that they didn't. They were more like in the "trust the direct" but actually meddle phase.

If you want to debate that Snyder had directions to establish an extended universe or that he had to shorten his movie by a half an hour, but it's been reported that he was given free reign on BvS.

 

[heatvision38]

If you want to debate that Snyder had directions to establish an extended universe or that he had to shorten his movie by a half an hour, but it's been reported that he was given free reign on BvS.

Yet WB asked him very late in the game to edit it in a major way. What was one of the biggest criticisms of the movie? The editing. It's not like they didn't know what he was doing.

 

[Erzengel]

Yet WB asked him very late in the game to edit it in a major way. What was one of the biggest criticisms of the movie? The editing. It's not like they didn't know what he was doing.

If the insinuation that if Snyder was allowed to release his Ultimate Edition, we wouldn't be where we are now, I'm not going to agree with you.

 

[flickchick85]

What was one of the biggest criticisms of the movie? The editing.

Uh, that was A criticism, sure, but hardly the biggest one. The biggest ones couldn't have been fixed in the editing room, as they were in the foundations of the piece from the ground up.

 

[The Guard]

I can't see how things would have gone much better had they released a three hour version of BATMAN V SUPERMAN.

Then we'd likely be dealing with a slightly higher on Rotten Tomatoes but still poorly received three hour superhero drama that likely made less money.

Was Snyder asked particularly late to edit BVS, or was it understood during production that he would be doing so?

 

[Kevin_28]

I never really read anywhere that Hamada was a comic book guy, so outside of saying, hey don't overshoot the budget or that sounds like/doesn't sound like it'll make a good story, I'm not sure what type of overseeing he may do.

And WB has 2 speeds, either they give power to directors see Burton, Nolan, Snyder or they step in and mess things up like they did with Batman Forever, SS, JL. So they have done both over the years.

Side note: Not gonna rehash old arguments about Snyder etc. I do agree that the uc without the r elements would have faired marginally better in critics score (would still have the Martha moment, be too serious for their tastes, etc etc) but not much would change.

As I stated, I personally hope I see WB move back a bit to allow for differing tones, interesting approaches, etc. Obviously I never meant that they should wholly embrace the previous method. I enjoyed Burton, Nolan, Schumacher (lesser extent), and Snyder’s approach to the characters. I think the problem with Schumacher is that it became more of an issue of complacency. It’s what people at the time expected more or less from cbms. There was really no push to try something new until Nolan. *shrug*