The Justice League General & Speculation Discussion Thread - Part 9

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This would seem legit but there is 0% they will even hint at GL in the trailer

It would be extremely unfair if they just happen to have some alien Green Lantern in a flashback sequence and not show some of the Green Lanterns that people actually want to see. What is the point, it would be like having Hippolyta and Antiope in the movie but not Diana.
 
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A better JL trailer than the ones released so far. Dont hate on me, for telling the truth :oldrazz:
 
Everyone who works at WB goes home at night and posts on Reddit.
 
It would be extremely unfair if they just happen to have some alien Green Lantern in a flashback sequences and not show some of the Green Lanterns that people actually want to see. What is the point, it would be like having Hippolyta and Antiope in the movie but not Diana.

In this case though it would be world building and teasing the Green Lantern corp for later when they eventually show up in there own movie.
 
While that trailer description was very poorly written, it did seem plausible.
 
Hm....I think that trailer description might be legit. The way they described Superman's brief scene still shows just enough to get people hyped without revealing whether he's good or evil at that point.
 
It would be extremely unfair if they just happen to have some alien Green Lantern in a flashback sequence and not show some of the Green Lanterns that people actually want to see. What is the point, it would be like having Hippolyta and Antiope in the movie but not Diana.

These movies are in the habit of planting seeds and teasing future projects, so some sort of reference to the Green Lanterns being around doesn't strike me as implausible at all. GL is the only real glaring absence from the roster.

On the whole, that description sounds plausible enough.

A bit more information about the plot, the villain makes an appearance, and a Superman tease.

Sounds like it could be a cool trailer, tbh, if it's not something fairly reasonable that somebody made up, obviously. We shall see.
 
Red Son? Come on! Just frickin do Kingdom Come if you're gonna go that far. I don't want a Red Son live action movie.
 
Sure, I can. One of the most obvious themes in the movie was about powerlessness and what people do when they do or do not have power. Part of the exploration of that theme was that at Superman's lowest point, the lesson he needs to learn isn't to be okay with people not getting him. It's to cope with the unintended consequences of his actions or, to put it more simply, to come to terms with his agency in the world. However, the entire film, like other DCEU films including Wonder Woman, was about choices.

Diana learns that humanity is capable of dark and light, and that light is a choice and thus gods like her shouldn't interfere. Superman's journey in BvS changes that, creating a paradigm shift. Caught between the extremes of the ultimate hero of man, Batman, and the ultimate hero of the gods or the last Olympian, Wonder Woman, Superman is neither man nor god. He is a Super Man. He is a man who has the powers of a god, but the agency and fallibility of a human. Accordingly, he has the potential to be, as Jonathan put it, someone who can change the world just by acting on his good character or his bad character. Humanity and Superman reconciling the conflict between their mutual agency and power in the world is crucial both to the narrative of BvS and to establishing the foundation for the Justice League going forward.

Let's look more closely at Superman's journey in BvS, then, shall we? At first, Clark reacts to the scrutiny of Superman with ease, telling Lois that he didn't kill anyone in Africa, and that he doesn't regret choosing to save her life. He focuses on Batman, who he believes is the real danger. He even defends Superman to Bruce at the library gala when he says, "Most of the world doesn't share your opinion, Mr. Wayne." What's interesting here is that Clark's concerns about Batman are because Batman continues to behave in a way that is harming people and inflaming fears, despite public criticism in the newspaper (and criticism from allies like Alfred). The message is clear that a humble and true hero is one who is willing to listen and consider concerns and not one who considers himself above criticism.

However, as time passes, he comes to see how even a choice like that can have unintended consequences, like the government reprisals on those living in the villages. He listens intently to Kahina on the news, and when Senator June Finch speaks at the end of the news montage, she speaks about Superman's choices. It's also addressed in this part of the film:

Finch: How do we determine what's good? In a democracy, good is a conversation not a unilateral decision. So, I urge Superman, to come to this hearth of the people tomorrow, to see those who have suffered. The world needs to know what happened in that desert. And to know what he stands for. How far will he take his power. Does he act by our will, or by his own?

Martha: People hate what they don't understand But they see what you do, and they know who you are.


For Finch, and the movie, the conflict is about whether the relationship between Superman and the public -- god and man -- is a unilateral decision or a conversation. A person who doesn't care what people think of him or about people not getting him, and proceeding to never reflect or change, is someone who would be a god-like tyrant worthy of humanity's and Bruce's fears. A person who does care enough to engage with their concerns, is someone who is trying to be the bridge Jor-El always wanted Kal to be. Clark, in other words, isn't moping about people not getting him. He's struggling with how his actions have consequences and how to define and engage with the public he is protecting. He seeks out Kahina to speak with her, and he goes to the Capitol to address the public's concerns.

Earlier in the film, Clark stands up for journalism saying that "when you assign a story, you're making a choice about who matters and who's worth it," and that is something humanity is struggling with. It's not so much about not getting Superman or Clark feeling misunderstood. The major conflict or area of concern is about choices and actions, and how much agency or power Superman should have to act according to his will and his will alone. It's about how both sides of this divide can coexist with each feeling secure in each other's agency, as the montage dialogue illustrates:

Vikram Gandhi: We, as a population on this planet, have been looking for a savior. Ninety percent of people believe in a higher power — and every religion believes in some sort messianic figure. And when this savior character actually comes to Earth, we want to make him abide by our rules? We have to understand that this is a paradigm shift. We have to start thinking beyond politics.

Andrew Sullivan: Are there any moral constraints on this person? We have international law. On this Earth, every act is a political act.

Charlie Rose: Is it really surprising that the most powerful man in the world should be a figure of controversy?
Senator June Finch: To have an individual engaging in these state-level interventions should give us all pause.

Glenn Woodburn: Human beings have a horrible track record of following people with great power down paths that led to huge human atrocities.

Vikram Gandhi: We have always created icons in our own image. What we've done is we project ourselves on to him. The fact is, maybe he's not some sort of Devil or Jesus character. Maybe he’s just a guy trying to do the right thing.

Neil deGrasse Tyson: We're talking about a being whose very existence challenges our own sense of priority in the Universe. When you go back to Copernicus where he restored the Sun in the center of the known universe, displacing Earth, and you get to Darwinian evolution and you find out we're not special on this Earth; we're just one among other lifeforms. And now we learn that we're not even special in the entire Universe — because there is Superman. There he is, an alien among us. We're not alone.

Charlie Rose: Are you, as a United States Senator, personally comfortable saying to a grieving parent, "Superman could've saved your child, but on principle we did not want him to act."
Senator June Finch: I'm not saying he shouldn't act. I'm saying he shouldn't act unilaterally.
Charlie Rose: What are we talking about here then? Must there be a Superman?
Senator June Finch: There is.


The memory of Jonathan's is what addressed this key aspect of Superman's characterization and the plot when Jonathan recalled "We worked 'til I think I fainted, but we managed to stop the water. We saved the farm. Your grandma baked me a cake, said I was a hero. Later that day we found out we blocked the water alright - we sent it upstream. A whole Lang farm washed away. While I ate my hero cake, their horses were drowning. I used to hear them wailing in my sleep." To which Clark asked, "Did the nightmares ever stop?" and Jonathan responded, "Yeah. When I met your mother. She gave me faith that there's good in this world. She was my world."

It's a variation on the message in Man of Steel and Diana's experiences with Steve in Wonder Woman. In Man of Steel, Martha teaches young Clark that when the world seems to big, to make it small. In Wonder Woman, Diana learns to accept and believe in humanity as beings of agency as a result of Steve's example. Clark's character arcs reach their resolutions when he recommits to his mission as Superman and later dies for a doubting public, because, as Diana would put it, he chooses love in the abstract (the world) and the specific (Lois) even though he knows there is still the darkness of humanity's doubt and the possibility he will make decisions with unintended negative consequences.

What about you? Can you point out where in the visuals and script you got the impression that Cavill's Superman had "the depth of character of a mopey teenager complaining about how the world just doesn't 'get' him" and who was "just a really unlikable, boring and one-dimensional" character? To help, you should first define what a one-dimensional character is according to you and according to professional writers. Then, try to locate when Superman complained about the world not getting him. Also, consider your preference for people who don't care about people not getting them. Is that the kind of attitude you would want someone like Zack Snyder or DC/WB executives to have about Snyder's movies? They should just not care about audiences not liking or getting what they were going for? To not want to listen and learn from the people who are affected by your choices is not the ideal way to behave.



That doesn't make their opinions any more right or valid than mine.

again, where in the film does superman verbally react to the global-scale existential panic his presence has seemingly provoked?

reaction shots of superman frowning at neil degrasse-tyson on tv, or frowning before congress or frowning at the idol worship he receives in mexico does not constitute the complex characterization you're claiming exists. it's a lot closer to "moping like a teenager because people don't get him".

there's plenty of discussion in the film about what superman means to the world to the almost complete exclusion of superman expressing how the ways he's shaping the world affects him. superman barely expresses anything in this respect beyond concerned facial expressions.

just in general and for all the (pseudo-intellectual, uninteresting) philosophizing about the significance of superman on the world the film indulges in, it barely gives it's title character an arc. the one that exists, a clumsy and thin christ parallel complete with martyrdom, leaves a lot to desired.

and unfortunately, it seems like the inability of the filmmakers to make superman a well rounded character instead of a plot device is going to continue into jl.
 
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Another totally legitimate DCEU leak.

So, so fake :funny:
 
These movies are in the habit of planting seeds and teasing future projects, so some sort of reference to the Green Lanterns being around doesn't strike me as implausible at all. GL is the only real glaring absence from the roster.

On the whole, that description sounds plausible enough.

A bit more information about the plot, the villain makes an appearance, and a Superman tease.

Sounds like it could be a cool trailer, tbh, if it's not something fairly reasonable that somebody made up, obviously. We shall see.

The thing is even if we do get those seeds, the character still doesn't get to be part of the movie's story, whereas the New 52 Justice League Origin story the movie is primarily based on had Hal Jordan as one of the main characters. This won't be like Wonder Woman's extended BvS cameo for instance, where she got to have an important part in the story, then got her own movie right after that, then another main role afterwards. Flashback sequences or potential post-credits scenes are just teasing fans with no immediate payoff. It's like "Well, he is there but you won't see him until 3 years later, probably".
 
The most legit part of that trailer description is Alfred's dialogue. Ya'll lyin' if you can't see him saying that lol.
 
I think the tell is Diana uttering almost the exact same line as Barry in the previous trailer "What are their abilities again?"
 
Hm....I think that trailer description might be legit. The way they described Superman's brief scene still shows just enough to get people hyped without revealing whether he's good or evil at that point.

Anyone posting a trailer description at this point is flat out lying. To post a trailer description implies that a trailer has been cut and edited together and at this juncture, a month before Comic Con, there is no trailer put together. If they already took the time to edit a trailer together, to the point where someone couls post a beat by beat, shot by shot description, then WB would just release it.
 
Anyone posting a trailer description at this point is flat out lying. To post a trailer description implies that a trailer has been cut and edited together and at this juncture, a month before Comic Con, there is no trailer put together. If they already took the time to edit a trailer together, to the point where someone couls post a beat by beat, shot by shot description, then WB would just release it.

considering how important and pivotal this trailer could potentially be, it doesn't seem unreasonable to think that they've already put a lot of thought into and coordinated the design of it even this far out.

having said that, any of these "leaked" trailer descriptions are almost definitely bs.
 
It doesn't sound legit, but everyone ruled out the MoS third trailer description (myself included). So we'll see.

If that's all they show of Supes...I may have to watch the trailer.
 
again, where in the film does superman verbally react to the global-scale existential panic his presence has seemingly provoked?

When does he verbally react in a way that demonstrates his feelings of distress are entirely an adolescent reaction to the world not getting him? You seem to want proof from me that you can't even provide to support your own reading of the film.

I've already detailed several verbal and nonverbal contextual inferences that indicate Clark was primarily concerned with the effect his existence and choices had on the world. First, Clark's interest in his Batman story and his defense of it to Perry. Second, Clark's memory of his father's story about the flooding of the Lang farm. Each of these verbal reactions is about the effect a hero's choices.

In addition, the nonverbal reactions to which you are referring are in response to something. Clark reacts nonverbally to what he's seeing and hearing, and what he's seeing and hearing isn't solely about the world not "getting" him. In fact, the majority of what he's seeing and hearing (and thus reacting to) is about how his existence and his choices are creating a global crisis.

reaction shots of superman frowning at neil degrasse-tyson on tv, or frowning before congress or frowning at the idol worship he receives in mexico does not constitute the complex characterization you're claiming exists. it's a lot closer to "moping like a teenager because people don't get him".

It's a good thing I'm not the one who is exclusively relying on reactions shots to draw my inferences about Clark's characterization. Hint: that would be what you are doing. I am looking at the entirety of Clark's characterization in the film, including the actions and choices he makes, and what he actually thinks about and says.

there's plenty of discussion in the film about what superman means to the world to the almost complete exclusion of superman expressing how the ways he's shaping the world affects him. superman barely expresses anything in this respect beyond concerned facial expressions.

You're right. Superman doesn't say a lot. Nevertheless, he doesn't say nothing. I am sharing my assessment of his character based on more than just facial expressions. Again, this is what you are doing when you claim Superman is acting like a mopey teenager who doesn't like being misunderstood. What I am looking at is why Clark is interested in defending his expose of The Batman's reign of terror in Gotham. What is on Clark's mind after the Capitol bombing? When Clark does speak up, what does he actually say?

Clark's investigation and his defense of his investigation to Perry are both about the choices a hero makes. Clark's quiet contemplation in the snowy mountains is all about how to cope with unintended consequences of the choices a hero makes. When Clark talks to Lois and to Bruce at various points in the film, he says things like "I don't care what they're saying" and "Most of the world doesn't share your opinion, Mr. Wayne." At no point in the film does Clark/Superman express verbal or nonverbal concern about the world not getting him.

Also, let's be clear, if Clark was only upset that the world didn't get him, then the reactions you were seeing from him would have to be reactions to content that was exclusively about the world not getting Superman. This is not the case. Not even close. What Kahina, Finch, Keefe, and all the media talking heads are discussing is much more complex than a simple misunderstanding of Superman's character.

just in general and for all the (pseudo-intellectual, uninteresting) philosophizing about the significance of superman on the world the film indulges in, it barely gives it's title character an arc. the one that exists, a clumsy and thin christ parallel complete with martyrdom, leaves a lot to desired.

The title character's arc is about wrestling with the consequences of his actions and choices both on the world and on himself. The title character's arc is about whether the world is ready to accept and trust a superhero not because he is a god or messiah, but because he's a guy trying to do the right thing. Ultimately, Superman is able to face and endure the unintended consequences his existence creates for humanity because he believes in love. If the world is too big, then make it small. "This is my world. You are my world." His death is proof to the world that he is willing to give everything -- give up all of his power -- for the sake of humanity. Why? Because this is HIS world.

and unfortunately, it seems like the inability of the filmmakers to make superman a well rounded character instead of a plot device is going to continue into jl.

You know nothing about JL to make such a prediction.
 
Any idea when we can expect the EW cover(s)?

EW Comic Con preview issue will be released on July 13.
EW Comic Con Bonus/special issue will be released on July 19.

I'm talking about official press release, from EW. The covers could leak couple of days before.
 
Although it sounds good, I think it is fake.

Just look at the user's post history, especially under submitted. You can see him making several threads asking "doubtful" questions whether Steppenwolf was in the trailer, Jimmy Olsen real or fake, shouting for the BVS Comic-con teaser etc., like every other enthusiastic fan.

Do you think a WB Studio employee would make posts like that? :whatever:
 
When does he verbally react in a way that demonstrates his feelings of distress are entirely an adolescent reaction to the world not getting him? You seem to want proof from me that you can't even provide to support your own reading of the film.

I've already detailed several verbal and nonverbal contextual inferences that indicate Clark was primarily concerned with the effect his existence and choices had on the world. First, Clark's interest in his Batman story and his defense of it to Perry. Second, Clark's memory of his father's story about the flooding of the Lang farm. Each of these verbal reactions is about the effect a hero's choices.

In addition, the nonverbal reactions to which you are referring are in response to something. Clark reacts nonverbally to what he's seeing and hearing, and what he's seeing and hearing isn't solely about the world not "getting" him. In fact, the majority of what he's seeing and hearing (and thus reacting to) is about how his existence and his choices are creating a global crisis.



It's a good thing I'm not the one who is exclusively relying on reactions shots to draw my inferences about Clark's characterization. Hint: that would be what you are doing. I am looking at the entirety of Clark's characterization in the film, including the actions and choices he makes, and what he actually thinks about and says.



You're right. Superman doesn't say a lot. Nevertheless, he doesn't say nothing. I am sharing my assessment of his character based on more than just facial expressions. Again, this is what you are doing when you claim Superman is acting like a mopey teenager who doesn't like being misunderstood. What I am looking at is why Clark is interested in defending his expose of The Batman's reign of terror in Gotham. What is on Clark's mind after the Capitol bombing? When Clark does speak up, what does he actually say?

Clark's investigation and his defense of his investigation to Perry are both about the choices a hero makes. Clark's quiet contemplation in the snowy mountains is all about how to cope with unintended consequences of the choices a hero makes. When Clark talks to Lois and to Bruce at various points in the film, he says things like "I don't care what they're saying" and "Most of the world doesn't share your opinion, Mr. Wayne." At no point in the film does Clark/Superman express verbal or nonverbal concern about the world not getting him.

Also, let's be clear, if Clark was only upset that the world didn't get him, then the reactions you were seeing from him would have to be reactions to content that was exclusively about the world not getting Superman. This is not the case. Not even close. What Kahina, Finch, Keefe, and all the media talking heads are discussing is much more complex than a simple misunderstanding of Superman's character.



The title character's arc is about wrestling with the consequences of his actions and choices both on the world and on himself. The title character's arc is about whether the world is ready to accept and trust a superhero not because he is a god or messiah, but because he's a guy trying to do the right thing. Ultimately, Superman is able to face and endure the unintended consequences his existence creates for humanity because he believes in love. If the world is too big, then make it small. "This is my world. You are my world." His death is proof to the world that he is willing to give everything -- give up all of his power -- for the sake of humanity. Why? Because this is HIS world.



You know nothing about JL to make such a prediction.

i'm comparing snyderman to a mopey teenager because wordless brooding in lieu of being able or willing to communicate one's emotions in a particular way is a common trait of mopey teenagers.

if snyder and co were unable to give superman a decent characterization in a 2 and a half/3 hour movie why should i have any faith they can do it in jl where superman will be dead for a sizable chunk of the movie?
 
No one is asking you to have any faith in the movie. You've used the term "mopey teenager" in your last ten posts. Stop projecting.
 
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