The "Keep Hope Alive" (that the rights can revert back to Marvel) thread - Part 9

[Spiderine]

I doubt that their is an earnings clause, if there had been one I would have thought that the Punisher rights would have reverted back in 2008 after Punisher:War Zone bombed hard, making only $10 million on a $35 million production budget. To be honest I would think that Marvel would have just thought that if a studio was loosing money on a Marvel franchise they would have the sense to give up and let the rights revert.

Exactly. Although each studio likely had specific contracts depending on the property. I think FOX inked the best deals of everyone. But most studios would simply not produce another film if it were not successful for them. I mean.....why would they?

I believe there is some sort of earnings clause, but nothing significant. However Marvel does have 100% merchandising rights. Part of the reason they aren't disowning Spider-Man is because they made 300 million in profit off of his merch. This is also part of the reason Sony's upset. The movie just a little more than broke even while Marvel made all the profits from their heavy lifting.

That's Sony's fault. They had no choice but to give it up otherwise they would have lost the whole caboodle.

 

[Urich Leeds]

As the saying goes, if you pay peanuts, you get monkeys.

And ironically, Fox have given far more attention to both The Peanuts Movie and the Planet of the Apes franchise.

That because they actually wanted to make those.

At some point after finding out they couldn't create a connected universe, they decided they didn't want FF anymore. And thus, as rumors have it, tried to sell it back to Marvel; likely at reduce price, in exchange for X-Men merchandising (which is what they desperately want).

Marvel, having logic, didn't bite with the rights deadline so close (its said sell discussions were happening as late as March 2014), and left Fox forced to make a film they wanted no part of.

It's kinda sad, really. In the beginning, it seemed the people at Fox were legitimately excited for a new FF series. But learning they couldn't create a connected universe with X-Men soured them on it completely. And now, they're moving forward with an expanded X-Film slate (with Deadpool and Gambit filming soon, and X-Force in the works), while showing a complete disinterest in the production and marketing of FF.

 

[Dasher10]

Revision terms depend on the contract. Ghost Rider had terms for earnings.

The Blade rights were sold back when Warner decided to do something with the DC comics characters starting with Batman Begins but they were able to hold on to the Blade rights by making a TV show since that contract included live action TV. Those rights eventually expired.

Punisher reverted because Lion's Gate felt they couldn't turn a profit with the IP and sold the rights back to Marvel.

Daredevil expired when Fox was attempting a reboot.

I'm not sure if there's any clause for revision of the Fantastic Four except for not producing a film for eight years. Fox is right at that deadline. They can't scrap it since they need a theatrical release.

And there were films that were atrocious but were fixed during reshoots. Apocalypse Now comes to mind as a classic which was famously fixed during post-production.

And even if this film fails, there's room for improvement with the sequel. Anyone remember House of 1000 Corpses which painted Rob Zombie a hack filmmaker who should stick to being a rocker, then he came out swinging with The Devil's Rejects? The rights will only revert if Fox wants to stop making Fantastic Four films. If Fox thinks that they can still turn a profit with the rights, then they'll keep making films. It's as simple as that. Unless this film gets gets a score under 40 on Metacritic and grosses less than $200M, I expect it to continue.

Marvel also has a full plate already. They own the Avengers (with the sole exception of Spider-Man) in addition to the Guardians of the Galaxy, Inhumans, SHIELD, Midnight Sons and Heroes for Hire. This isn't getting into Avengers spin-offs like Force Works, West Coast Avengers, Secret Avengers, Avengers Academy, Mighty Avengers and New Avengers. Marvel doesn't need the FF back.

I also love this pic:

 

[Xrathe]

I feel pretty confident about this being the last we hear FF and movie together for quite a while when this bombs. They're only releasing it as a hail Mary and desperate attempt at keeping the rights from Marvel. Obviously Marvel doesn't need them or they would have already made a deal. Marvel has way more leverage in the negotiation than Fox, which is why the suits at Fox are being petty.

Marvel wants to pay homage to the source or there wouldn't be talks with Sony. I fully believe we get an announcement this year pertaining to Marvel getting Spidey usage. I also expect Marvel will herald the arrival of Thanos with the Surfer by the time Infinity War rolls around.

 

[fangz]

I was just thinking how telling this is. There are a lot of rumors about Trank. We haven't heard anything from Trank. Kinberg just said that Trank is still directing.

Kinberg just said . . .

Why are we hearing from Kinberg instead of Trank? Let's hear it from Trank. Until Trank appears in some form, Fox is not going to be able to end these rumors.

i don't think Trank wants to talk about it.

i mean, he hasn't been talking about it this whole time.
i don't mind the idea of mouthpieces if the director is that type of person.
really, that kind of stuff is just about convincing this minority of people who think much about it (meaning us for the most part). people really don't care at this point about what's going on with the movie. which is not good for Fox, but the world is not waiting for Trank to make a statement,either. and for Trank to talk much about it would not correct the problem of people not caring right now.

 

[fangz]

I'd say Fox is more like a cow on roller skates but a leopard doesn't change its spots. Trank's film is just Fox's guinea pig. They're hoping for a cash cow but they are blind as a bat that they're betting on the wrong horse. Any trailer they release will be nothing but a dog and pony show. Announcing a sequel was putting the cart before the horse. This film will succeed in a pig's eye but I'm probably just beating a dead horse.

hahaha, well done, Ragnaroknroll.

what if right now, is actually the perfect window for Marvel to just buy the rights, and buy this movie too? There's gotta be people in Fox, pretty high up that would love to just have it like it never existed.

no one really knows about the movie, no one is anticipating it yet, so it wouldn't be much of a black eye as far as PR and stuff.

this is what i would love to see most. and then to see Marvel bury it, put FF kicking off Phase 4 and maybe in 20 years once the Trank FF had reached feverous legion status of cult obsessors and subject of speculation and argument, put it out as a bonus dvd on the FF box set.

Trank walks away with legendary status. the actors walk away with their money, fox walks away with money and so much less of a pain in the ass the next time anything about FF comes up, and walks away with a focus on X-Men where it should be, and Marvel, obviously, walks away with the prize pig.

win win for everyone and i bet Marvel would be able to use Fox against itself to just get the deal done on semi-reasonable terms.

this could be hope here, hope is alive.

just it seems like the more of a mess this whole thing is and the closer to actually having to commit more money to put it out, as in reshoots and a marketing campaign, that's the time Marvel actually has a good chance to get some reasonable deal for the rights back. once the trailer drops being kind of the closing of that window, i guess.

 

[fangz]

That because they actually wanted to make those.

At some point after finding out they couldn't create a connected universe, ...

so u think also that Fox couldn't do an X-Men FF crossover without Marvel's agreeing to terms on that?

cuz this site was the first place i saw that idea raised, and i think it's totally true. i don't see it mentioned anywhere else tho, and that just puzzles me, cuz it seems like such an obvious thing that people would bring up every time the possibility of crossover comes up.

you think journalists would ask them... "oh yeah, is that possible, becuz how would that work?" not even an antagonistic question, but phrased very much like giving them a platform to explain their future plans.

 

[Mr.M]

The rights thing comes down to the fact that these were separate leases that last for different lengths in time and you can't use one film to satisfy both deals. Surely you'd think Marvel had that much foresight when they drew up the paperwork? We haven't seen a crossover yet with the exception of cameo appearances and Easter Eggs.

 

[Wise]

So I wonder what the ransom video will be like... er I mean trailer.

Hopefully this crap being grounded might mean that Marvel can at least negotiate a deal to get back Galactus and Surfer, who would be much more at home in the GoTG franchise and so Marvel can make a true Defenders movie with Dr. Strange, Hulk, Namor and Silver Surfer.

 

[Zarex]

And even if this film fails, there's room for improvement with the sequel. Anyone remember House of 1000 Corpses which painted Rob Zombie a hack filmmaker who should stick to being a rocker, then he came out swinging with The Devil's Rejects? The rights will only revert if Fox wants to stop making Fantastic Four films. If Fox thinks that they can still turn a profit with the rights, then they'll keep making films. It's as simple as that. Unless this film gets gets a score under 40 on Metacritic and grosses less than $200M, I expect it to continue.

After FFINO is released, who the hell is going to see the sequel to a flop of a reboot of a failed franchise?

Marvel also has a full plate already. They own the Avengers (with the sole exception of Spider-Man) in addition to the Guardians of the Galaxy, Inhumans, SHIELD, Midnight Sons and Heroes for Hire. This isn't getting into Avengers spin-offs like Force Works, West Coast Avengers, Secret Avengers, Avengers Academy, Mighty Avengers and New Avengers. Marvel doesn't need the FF back.

Feige and company have shown that when their plate gets full they simply get a bigger plate.

Marvel Studios may not need the FF, but longtime fans who have waited most of their lives for a competently made Fantastic Four film deserve it.

 

[Spiderine]

Nobody was thinking crossover till a little film called Avengers became massive colossal hit. Even WB were twiddling their fingers with the idea and they own every damn character in the DC library......LOL

FOX sure as hell wasn't on that page. And crossing anything with Xmen makes little sense to me anyways. They would need special permission from Marvel two cross to independently sold franchises together. Do you think Marvel/Disney would give them that?

 

[Miken Ayers]

The rights thing comes down to the fact that these were separate leases that last for different lengths in time and you can't use one film to satisfy both deals. Surely you'd think Marvel had that much foresight when they drew up the paperwork? We haven't seen a crossover yet with the exception of cameo appearances and Easter Eggs.

There's a little bit more to it too. Years ago when Mark Millar did a Wolverine arc called "Enemy of the State", while the character was brainwashed he was fighting Daredevil, Elektra, and the Fantastic Four. All of Wolverine's main points of focus including The X-Men being present were properties held by Fox.

I asked Mark Millar on a message board if this was maybe some unofficial pitch to a crossover movie. He told me yes, but as a movie Wolverine would mainly be fighting feds and soldiers instead of superheroes. Although Daredevil, Fantastic Four and X-Men were all Marvel properties under the Fox roof, different individuals put their own money up to obtain these licenses. So for that reason alone it wouldn't be much different than if they were held by different studios.

Also, Marvel's been very protective of studios downright exploiting their properties with cross promotion. Back in 2003 they sued Sony for coupling Spider-Man advertisements. IE: Duel ads with Stuart Little's DVD and Sony products, or when Spider-Man and Men In Black II were put back in theaters as a double feature. Despite Men In Black II being a Marvel property also. However since whatever agreement with the rights sales for were most likely very different, Mavel may have every reason to object.

So putting X-Men and Fantastic Four together may be as big a no no as having the X-Men fight Predator.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

Brian Singer should walk if Fox tries to force a crossover on him, assuming they can do one. He spent a lot of effort resurrecting the X-Franchise from the dead, and doesn't need this albatross dragging it back down into the muck and destroying his work.

 

[R_Hythlodeus]

Nobody was thinking crossover till a little film called Avengers became massive colossal hit. Even WB were twiddling their fingers with the idea and they own every damn character in the DC library......LOL

IIRC WB tried to get a connected universe started with GL but failed miserably (they even included Amanda Waller in the movie to serve as a Nick Fury-esque connection). After that we heard statements like 'crossovers? please! DC characters can stand on their own, they are to big for those gimmicks.' until Avengers came out

 

[Sterling Archer]

Brian Singer should walk if Fox tries to force a crossover on him, assuming they can do one. He spent a lot of effort resurrecting the X-Franchise from the dead, and doesn't need this albatross dragging it back down into the muck and destroying his work.

You mean Mathew Vaughn resurrected the x-franchise from the dead, right? Days of Future Past would be terrible if not for First Class.

 

[Mr.M]

IIRC WB tried to get a connected universe started with GL but failed miserably (they even included Amanda Waller in the movie to serve as a Nick Fury-esque connection). After that we heard statements like 'crossovers? please! DC characters can stand on their own, they are to big for those gimmicks.' until Avengers came out

You know what they say about hindsight. But it is absolutely ridiculous that they were actually counting on JL:M in an entirely separate or quasi universe. The inability to get Superman and Batman firing at the same time has cost them. Even MoS left audiences with a tepid response. They had no choice but to go with the gimmick once Affleck signed on. It was the best possible direction they could have gone following the shortcomings of MoS. I think that, in tandem with the TVverse, and Suicide Squad, DC has done a complete 180, but the case will be out until BvS is released.

How does Fox build an X-Universe this late in the game? The franchise has ran its course with two trilogies. I don't see how they keep the momentum going. I enjoy spinoffs though. I don't consider mutants individually as franchise material. It needs to be a larger team aspect. Skeptical with Gambit.

 

[R_Hythlodeus]

How does Fox build an X-Universe this late in the game? The franchise has ran its course with two trilogies. I don't see how they keep the momentum going. I enjoy spinoffs though. I don't consider mutants individually as franchise material. It needs to be a larger team aspect. Skeptical with Gambit.

With the right vision it is not impossible to make a broad X-Verse work. Honestly, I doubt Singer/Vaughn have that vision, but it is not impossible

 

[Scarlet Spider]

You mean Mathew Vaughn resurrected the x-franchise from the dead, right? Days of Future Past would be terrible if not for First Class.

No, he meant Bryan Singer. Vaughn was brought in last minute (by Bryan Singer himself) because he was still under contract on another film. Singer developed and pitched FC to Fox, got the film greenlit and even after he brought Vaughn aboard was still on set overseeing the production.

 

[Whiskey Tango]

Days of Future Past would be terrible if not for First Class.

I don't see how this is anything more than guesswork tbh. DOFP probably wouldn't even exist without First Class, but regardless judging the quality of a 'never was' seems a little out there.

 

[Scarlet Spider]

A DOFP film still could have been made but just with the original cast. It didn't need FC to exist or to be great but since they already had a set of new actors in a past time period, they were able to utilize both with the DOFP concept.

 

[Whiskey Tango]

yes but that doesn't mean it would have been 'terrible', just different.

 

[Scarlet Spider]

Yeah, I agree.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

No, he meant Bryan Singer. Vaughn was brought in last minute (by Bryan Singer himself) because he was still under contract on another film. Singer developed and pitched FC to Fox, got the film greenlit and even after he brought Vaughn aboard was still on set overseeing the production.

Exactly.

 

[fangz]

There's a little bit more to it too. Years ago when Mark Millar did a Wolverine arc called "Enemy of the State", while the character was brainwashed he was fighting Daredevil, Elektra, and the Fantastic Four. All of Wolverine's main points of focus including The X-Men being present were properties held by Fox.

I asked Mark Millar on a message board if this was maybe some unofficial pitch to a crossover movie. He told me yes, but as a movie Wolverine would mainly be fighting feds and soldiers instead of superheroes. Although Daredevil, Fantastic Four and X-Men were all Marvel properties under the Fox roof, different individuals put their own money up to obtain these licenses. So for that reason alone it wouldn't be much different than if they were held by different studios.

Also, Marvel's been very protective of studios downright exploiting their properties with cross promotion. Back in 2003 they sued Sony for coupling Spider-Man advertisements. IE: Duel ads with Stuart Little's DVD and Sony products, or when Spider-Man and Men In Black II were put back in theaters as a double feature. Despite Men In Black II being a Marvel property also. However since whatever agreement with the rights sales for were most likely very different, Mavel may have every reason to object.

So putting X-Men and Fantastic Four together may be as big a no no as having the X-Men fight Predator.

interesting stuff, makes sense too. at the least it would seem like they'd have to pay out twice as much to make the movie, or something along those lines

 

[Urich Leeds]

Nobody was thinking crossover till a little film called Avengers became massive colossal hit. Even WB were twiddling their fingers with the idea and they own every damn character in the DC library......LOL

IIRC WB tried to get a connected universe started with GL but failed miserably (they even included Amanda Waller in the movie to serve as a Nick Fury-esque connection). After that we heard statements like 'crossovers? please! DC characters can stand on their own, they are to big for those gimmicks.' until Avengers came out

WB/DC has been trying to launch a DCCU as far back as 2005, and a Batman/Superman film as far back as 2001.

It almost happened until Nolan demanded his Batman be standalone. And when the in-development JLA film (which would spunoff into solos, and featured a different Batman) got stalled by the writers strike, he's said he got it shelved altogether, and GL failed, WB put launching a DCCU on the backburner until after TDKR.