The "Keep Hope Alive" (that the rights can revert back to Marvel) thread

[Jammat]

Very happy to find this thread and to see there are kindred spirits out there. Huge fan of the FF but count me firmly in the camp opposed to the Foxtastic Four reboot. I refuse to see it. There's only one place these characters belong and that's part of the MCU. X-Men and Spidey can stay where they are but the FF need to come home.

Also I would love to see a Namor film. Most anticipated character on the big screen since Thor. I think he could definitely carry a film if part of the Marvel U. Standalone - no way. A WWII Invaders origin story line that later introduces him to the modern age in a reunion with Cap would be sweet. Perhaps an initial conflict with the Avengers just like classic Avengers #3!

Actually I already thought he was with Marvel Studios so I'm just as puzzled as everyone else by Feige's recent comments.

A WWII story involving Namor could give us more Peggy Carter, which would be great, I like the idea of more period pieces. Namor could attack New York under a misunderstanding, the feldgling SHIELD under Howard Stark and Peggy could activate the Human Torch to defend the city. Eventually, all combine to form The Invaders to defend against a greater threat. Although, I doubt it would work, having an artificial intelligence as sophisticated as the Human Torch in the period setting could be jarring.

 

[Dark Raven]

A WWII story involving Namor could give us more Peggy Carter, which would be great, I like the idea of more period pieces. Namor could attack New York under a misunderstanding, the feldgling SHIELD under Howard Stark and Peggy could activate the Human Torch to defend the city. Eventually, all combine to form The Invaders to defend against a greater threat. Although, I doubt it would work, having an artificial intelligence as sophisticated as the Human Torch in the period setting could be jarring.

They could make use of that Human Torch that was at that exhibition in CA:TFA. As for the AI, well I don't think it's any more jarring than all the Hydra technology that was shown. He could be a one-off creation as well (perhaps something that came from the future) so that it isn't anything that can be replicated again during that era.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

They could make use of that Human Torch that was at that exhibition in CA:TFA. As for the AI, well I don't think it's any more jarring than all the Hydra technology that was shown. He could be a one-off creation as well (perhaps something that came from the future) so that it isn't anything that can be replicated again during that era.

This is why I wish they hadn't shown Cap's freezing in the first film - at least not in the time-frame they did. They should have left him with several years in that era that we didn't see and then they could have had some cool retro films at some point.

As far as a stand-alone Namor film, sure, it could be very cool, but I don't think it will ever happen.

Hollywood has limited imagination and even less stomach for risk.

Look at just about every major release of the past 5 years and you'll see a pattern - big films are either sequels, re-makes, based on best-seller or in some other form based on characters that are known by a broad audience.

Everybody here knows Namor, but I don't think he's known enough by most people to make a studio (probably even Marvel) throw a lot of money into a stand-alone film.

Almost any Marvel character could make a great film with the right script, director and budget, but we'll never see most of the minor ones.

I also think that's why Marvel would really like to get FF back. They're the most recognizable Marvel characters who haven't had a decent film made yet. I think Marvel would much rather be making an FF film than stand-alone Black Panther, Inhumans etc., but if they don't get the rights back, they'll have to work with what they have.

 

[Ragnaroknroll]

A WWII story involving Namor could give us more Peggy Carter, which would be great, I like the idea of more period pieces. Namor could attack New York under a misunderstanding, the feldgling SHIELD under Howard Stark and Peggy could activate the Human Torch to defend the city. Eventually, all combine to form The Invaders to defend against a greater threat. Although, I doubt it would work, having an artificial intelligence as sophisticated as the Human Torch in the period setting could be jarring.

I'd love to see that film. And yes we did get that easter egg at the fair in CATFA. I do think explaining the AI for the Human Torch would be a difficult problem to solve. You have to make it work in the context of the entire cinematic universe and I think having AI during WWII would diminish the impact of the AI that emerges with Ultron/Vision etc. late in history. Not that a clever writer couldn't figure something out. Perhaps some time travel or alien tech could be involved. The Marvel U is vast enough to pull ideas from anything.

 

[Dark Raven]

The AI can be explained as belonging to the Vision who comes from the future, who used the body of the WWII Human Torch, thus creating a temporal paradox.

 

[Ragnaroknroll]

This is why I wish they hadn't shown Cap's freezing in the first film - at least not in the time-frame they did. They should have left him with several years in that era that we didn't see and then they could have had some cool retro films at some point.

Actually I've heard criticism about CA:TFA's middle montage but I think it was intentional. They glossed over a lot of details of Cap's military campaign because A) they needed to quickly get Cap to the modern age for the Avengers and B) they wanted to leave the door open for flushing out that earlier universe which they can do via flashbacks and/or future period pieces/prequels. I think it was a great idea. It was basically a trailer for future episodes of Cap's adventures during WWII.

Personally, I feel Joe Johnston handled a difficult task extremely well. CA is one of my favorite MCU films.

I'm also hoping we see lots of flashbacks during CA:TWS.

As far as a stand-alone Namor film, sure, it could be very cool, but I don't think it will ever happen.

Hollywood has limited imagination and even less stomach for risk.

Look at just about every major release of the past 5 years and you'll see a pattern - big films are either sequels, re-makes, based on best-seller or in some other form based on characters that are known by a broad audience.

Everybody here knows Namor, but I don't think he's known enough by most people to make a studio (probably even Marvel) throw a lot of money into a stand-alone film.

Never say never. Personally, I'd rather see a Namor film any day over an Aquaman film (who everybody knows). I've tried to get into Aquaman but he's just not nearly as cool.

Almost any Marvel character could make a great film with the right script, director and budget, but we'll never see most of the minor ones.

I also think that's why Marvel would really like to get FF back. They're the most recognizable Marvel characters who haven't had a decent film made yet. I think Marvel would much rather be making an FF film than stand-alone Black Panther, Inhumans etc., but if they don't get the rights back, they'll have to work with what they have.

Exactly. Marvel Studios is paying the penalty for all those bad decisions during the 90's. They have no choice but to work with what they have (or whatever serendipitously falls back into their laps). They've done incredibly well thus far and it will be even more amazing if they can sustain phase 3 on what could potentially be nothing but C-listers. Disney, on the other hand, could reach into their pockets a little deeper and make this happen. The fact that Disney, the only family oriented movie studio, doesn't own Marvel's first family is ridiculous. They could've saved all that money they wasted on John Carter and the Lone Ranger and put it towards bolstering one of their actual money makers.

 

[Ragnaroknroll]

The AI can be explained as belonging to the Vision who comes from the future, who used the body of the WWII Human Torch, thus creating a temporal paradox.

Now you're talking!

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

Actually I've heard criticism about CA:TFA's middle montage but I think it was intentional. They glossed over a lot of details of Cap's military campaign because A) they needed to quickly get Cap to the modern age for the Avengers and B) they wanted to leave the door open for flushing out that earlier universe which they can do via flashbacks and/or future period pieces/prequels. I think it was a great idea. It was basically a trailer for future episodes of Cap's adventures during WWII.

That's interesting. I hadn't thought of squeezing anything in that range, but it is possible. I guess they could always do a time travel thing also, but I'd much rather it be CA and friends from the past with no knowledge of the future if they are going to do another retro.

And by the way, welcome to one of the Hype's largest forums for a film that might never happen.

 

[Mr.M]

I doubt they will squeeze something like the Invaders into that limited time frame. If they wanted to make a period piece with Namor and Human Torch, then I think those guys would need to have their own movie, and Cap would play a limited role within that. It would just detract too much from the WWII narrative established in TFA. So I would have Namor and Torch doing their own separate missions, and maybe they all team up in the end for a brief mission together. It would make for a very convoluted movie, and frankly, I think the ship has sailed.

 

[Ragnaroknroll]

And by the way, welcome to one of the Hype's largest forums for a film that might never happen.

Thanks Willie!

We can dream right?

 

[Ragnaroknroll]

I doubt they will squeeze something like the Invaders into that limited time frame. If they wanted to make a period piece with Namor and Human Torch, then I think those guys would need to have their own movie, and Cap would play a limited role within that. It would just detract too much from the WWII narrative established in TFA. So I would have Namor and Torch doing their own separate missions, and maybe they all team up in the end for a brief mission together. It would make for a very convoluted movie, and frankly, I think the ship has sailed.

I think it's doable. All Johnston focused on in his montage was the campaign against the Red Skull which could've taken years. That doesn't preclude Cap's involvement in other missions that we just don't know about. The separate Torch/Namor stories could run in parallel to the Cap/Hydra storyline.

Actually I think the Torch and Namor's origins/first appearances could even predate Cap anyway because at the exhibition the Torch is already on display (unless that was a prototype). I would love to see the classic showdown between those two. It's a great storyline and I would be surprised if Marvel Studios didn't incorporate it in a film at some point in the future. I don't see Toro making an appearance though - that seems too far fetched for the general audience to roll with - especially if you can't reference his mutant origins.

 

[Dark Raven]

Since most people don't even know Toro anyway, who says he has to be a mutant in the MCU? He could easily have gained his powers like Johnny Storm or could be another android like Jim Hammond. I hope to see Dr Phineas Horton make an appearance some day.

Would even be cool if they started having the character Phil Sheldon (from Marvels) show up and become the connective tissue between various films. He could be still young during WWII but an old man in the present day MCU. Maybe Stan Lee could even stand in for the current day one.

 

[spideyboy_1111]

Namor and Human Torch can still be worked into cap's past if they wanted... you probably can't go full on "invaders" as we know them, but you can certainly have a story where they crossed paths and fought a battle together.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

I wonder if Fox might try to block them from using the classic Torch. Obviously they're completely different characters in the comic history, but I could imagine Fox arguing just to be *****.

 

[Ragnaroknroll]

I wonder if Fox might try to block them from using the classic Torch. Obviously they're completely different characters in the comic history, but I could imagine Fox arguing just to be *****.

They could try but they can't possibly stop Marvel from using the original character that predates the one they've licensed by 20+ years.

Fox needs to join forces with Marvel rather than instigate petty skirmishes with them. They were foolish to not play ball when the Daredevil rights were ending and Marvel was willing to extend and they were even more foolish to spitefully shoehorn in Quicksilver immediately after Joss announced that he would use the character in Avengers.

Fox's CBMs consistently underperform critically and commerically. In my mind they've only had 2 arguably great films (X2 and maybe XFC). They've barely sniffed half a billion in worldwide gross for X-Men: The Last Stand and that was widely panned. They are using the Marvel brand. Why would you seek to create a rift with the mega successful studio of the same name instead of allying yourself somehow?

 

[Mr.M]

Foolish not to extend DD by giving away rights to two A-list cosmic characters? Whether SS or Galactus would fair better at Disney is another matter, but Fox isn't in the business of throwing away block buster villains to extend DD.

Fox has done a terrible job with FF no question, but no use dwelling on the past. I would go to Universal and try to nab Namor if I were them. Expand the cosmic side of the Fox-verse, and go from there.

 

[Zarex]

Fox has done a terrible job with FF no question, but no use dwelling on the past. I would go to Universal and try to nab Namor if I were them. Expand the cosmic side of the Fox-verse, and go from there.

Marvel certainly signed off on some bad deals back in the 90's, but it's extremely unlikely that their character family contracts can be traded back and forth between studios like baseball cards.

 

[Mr.M]

Sony loaned out Kingpin to Fox. I'm sure it just takes a number (financially speaking). Namor is probably on the backend of villains Fox wants to feature though, seeing as Cameron has a slate of under water epics with Avatar sequels, so maybe they don't want to go there with FF. I don't really think Marvel is keen on giving Namor and BP their own films anyhow. They'd rather introduce them in ensemble movies first.

 

[Ragnaroknroll]

Foolish not to extend DD by giving away rights to two A-list cosmic characters? Whether SS or Galactus would fair better at Disney is another matter, but Fox isn't in the business of throwing away block buster villains to extend DD.

Fox has done a terrible job with FF no question, but no use dwelling on the past. I would go to Universal and try to nab Namor if I were them. Expand the cosmic side of the Fox-verse, and go from there.

An A-list cosmic character that Fox was too embarassed to even show? The Galactus Trilogy is one of the best comic storylines ever and they butchered it - badly. I highly doubt Galactus is making a return to the silver screen anytime soon. If Fox goes through with this it's bad enough audiences will have to endure a reboot of the FF and Doom let alone a Galactus reboot. People whined enough about the ASM reboot being more of the same and that at least had a different villain. What are they doing differently this time with the FF other than switching character races and ages?

Also Daredevil is a GREAT character. Fox just didn't use him properly because they didn't take him seriously enough. I'd wager Fox could've made more money on a Daredevil movie done right vs. an FF movie. FF2 only made about a $100 million more than a terrible Daredevil movie released in Feburary. And that's with 4 years of inflation. The budget for a proper FF movie alone probably needs to be at least 200 million these days. It's a huge risk. Meanwhile, how much more money did the superior Wolverine make than Borigins? Oh wait... it didn't.

 

[Mr. Dent]

I wonder if Silver Surfer's rights are independant from Fantastic Four's? Silver Surfer (among many other characters) was sold to Artisan Entertainment back in the early 2000s, and when they went under all of the rights to the characters they had reverted back to Marvel. It can be assumed that Marvel then licensed Silver Surfer and Deadpool out to Fox and that's why they used him in FF2, and Deadpool in XMO. I wonder if they don't use Silver Surfer in the upcoming FF movie will his rights revert? It will have been 7 years since Silver Surfer was last used next year...bad place, I wouldn't be surprised if that's one of the issues holding up the movie's script, they're trying to figure out how to fit a bunch of stuff in it to keep rights.

 

[Zarex]

Sony loaned out Kingpin to Fox. I'm sure it just takes a number (financially speaking). Namor is probably on the backend of villains Fox wants to feature though, seeing as Cameron has a slate of under water epics with Avatar sequels, so maybe they don't want to go there with FF. I don't really think Marvel is keen on giving Namor and BP their own films anyhow. They'd rather introduce them in ensemble movies first.

Even if he Kingpin leasing story is true, and I have my doubts, it occurred before Marvel had their own studio. So long as the checks cleared, Marvel would sign off on whatever their licensees asked for.

In order for a character transfer to take place, Marvel would have to agree to tear up their existing contract with Universal and draw up a new one with FOX. With Disney/Marvel out of the rights selling business, that's simply not happening.

 

[Zarex]

I wonder if Silver Surfer's rights are independant from Fantastic Four's? Silver Surfer (among many other characters) was sold to Artisan Entertainment back in the early 2000s, and when they went under all of the rights to the characters they had reverted back to Marvel. It can be assumed that Marvel then licensed Silver Surfer and Deadpool out to Fox and that's why they used him in FF2, and Deadpool in XMO. I wonder if they don't use Silver Surfer in the upcoming FF movie will his rights revert? It will have been 7 years since Silver Surfer was last used next year...bad place, I wouldn't be surprised if that's one of the issues holding up the movie's script, they're trying to figure out how to fit a bunch of stuff in it to keep rights.

FOX and Marvel may have amended the existing FF and X- Men contracts to include the Surfer and Deadpool, respectively.

 

[Mr. Dent]

Why would they do that though? There's absolutely nothing in it for them if they did that.

 

[Zarex]

Why would they do that though? There's absolutely nothing in it for them if they did that.

There could have been a couple of extra bucks in it for Marvel. During the late 90s early 2000s the company was still recovering from the Pearlman years and bankruptcy. The Surfer and Deadpool could still be on separate deals, but we won't find out until the rights for either one reverts .

Another reason for why I suspect the rights were "bundled" is that the rights for both characters are still at FOX. If it was necessary for FOX to feature the Surfer and Deadpool as solo leads, the rights would likely be back at Marvel - though with the recent news about Namor, I'm not sure what to believe.

 

[Mr. Dent]

By the time Artisan went under Marvel was fine. They were actually in a bid to acquire them at one point but were outbid.