The Dark Knight The lack of realism

[Joker]

I notice a lot of people praise the realism in this movie. Which baffles me. In Batman Begins Nolan had the illusion of realism (which was cleverly disguised unrealism).

In this movie he totally took me by surprise cause there was no realism what-so-ever and he did not even try to give us that illusion.

Bruce Wayne morals and ethics - unrealistic. No man alive can relate to that, thats what makes him a superhero. Cause he takes "overhuman" choices.

Batman in action - totally unrealistic. Like watching Spider-Man. What he does is so far out there, it really surprised me.

Q, err, I mean Fox - The character is so fictionall and what he comes up with is in the James Bond universe.

Two-Face - No one can live like that. So over the top if one wants realism (or the illusion of it)

Joker - Wicked evil, most unrealistic of all.

The story - It's like complicatet domino. A bit to well directed. It's totally madness (mostly due to the character of joker).

Now, people might think I'm bashing the movie. I am not. I loved it, best thriller I've seen and alongside Superman the beste superheromovie ever made. I loved how Nolan went away from the illusion of realism and gave us a kick-ass movie.

But I'm a bit startled that so many of the "realism"-lovers like this movie. And many of them seem to live in denial and claim that this is so realistic. Come on!

So, did the Nolan take for this one (he also dropped the jumping back and forth in timeline) with less realism suit you? I hope this opens the eyes for many, movies need magic and not realism. This is a different universe then our and Nolan used that to give us a unrealistic film that totally kicked ass. But am I alone with this take on the movie? I feel so.

There was no realism in Begins either. It had an ancient group of ninjas secretly policing the world for 2,000 years, trying to destroy a major US city with fear gas and a microwave emmiter that did nothing to humans, not to mention a man dressed up as a bat.

Anyone who thinks there's any "realism" in either of these movies is deluding themselves. Even Nolan has said there's no "realism" using the term "hightened reality" which is just another way of saying "fantasy."

 

[Dotten]

Now who's arguing a point I didnt make? The REASON why the motive doesnt matter is because HE"S CRAZY. He will FIND a motive because THATS WHAT CRAZY PEOPLE DO. And YES, people have been every bit as crazy as The Joker and have been able to do things like The Joker does. Youre entire argument is that since no one has ever actually been The Joker and been chased around by Bruce Wayne, then somehow he is different from every crazy perso who's ever lived. He is not.

Charles Manson was crazy...yet somehow talked a team of people into following him down his crazy path and killing for him. Manson went FURTHER than the Joker by not actually having to kill anybody himself because he had other people do the dirty work. Of course, thats because Manson used people who were already kinda nuts...wait...The Joker did that too, as the movie clearly states.

So, we've given you crazier people than The Joker, people with FAR larger kill rates than The Joker, and people who had gangs like The Joker...and your entire argument now rests on...yeah...but none of them wore face paint and purple clothes. I am sorry, friend. The Joker is a fictional character, and thus far that fictional character has not sprung to life. However, many people who have his form of insanity have existed...and done horrible things...I apologize that none of them called themselves The Joker. which to you somehow is what makes him less realistic than someone calling themselves say, The Unibomber or The Zodiac Killer.

Again, you fail to find som crazy guy with the motives and the aproach of the Joker. Because there is none. But then again you say that the persons motives does not matter, but for me it is what seperates Joker from the crazy people grounded in reality (that and how he goes about). This is not about kill rate or who is crazier. It's about the kind of crazyness The Joker has and how he acts (and how that magically goes along with his surrounding and making it possible for him to scheme like he does). It differs him vastly from Unibomber, Zodiac killer and others. Even the crazy murdering bastards here in scandinavia (child killers, serial killers and so on who americans know nothing about). That's not grounded in any kind of realism. And that makes the character so much better

But if motives does not come into account for you then I doubt we can come to any agreement, other to agree to disagree.

 

[Dotten]

There was no realism in Begins either. It had an ancient group of ninjas secretly policing the world for 2,000 years, trying to destroy a major US city with fear gas and a microwave emmiter that did nothing to humans, not to mention a man dressed up as a bat.

I agree on that. But I felt that Nolan tried harder to sell the illusion of realism. But that he did not care to do the same for TDK. Which makes me a bit baffled that people go around stating it is so realistic etc.

It's just an illusion. But he did'nt even try for this one. Which I love. But still people get caught in the illusion.

Anyone who thinks there's any "realism" in either of these movies is deluding themselves. Even Nolan has said there's no "realism" using the term "hightened reality" which is just another way of saying "fantasy."

I agree.

 

[Tree27]

If he were to make it as real as you wanted there wouldn't be a GIANT BAT DUDE FLYING AROUND THE CITY.

Pluse there is evil that surpasses the joker's in the REAL world, THE HOLOCAUST, and not only in big groups like that, even singular people. Jeoffrey Dahmer ATE PEOPLE, for **** sake.

 

[ArmsHeldOut]

Even Nolan has said there's no "realism" using the term "hightened reality" which is just another way of saying "fantasy."

Don't make things up.


Nolan: "It's interesting that you say that because, particularly with Batman, there's a demand, particularly from the fans, that you treat it with appropriate darkness and, to me, it was never about making a darker film. It was about making a realistic film and, to me, there's great [virtue] in the character. The discussion we were having about heroism is something I've thought a lot about Batman because, yes, you can make him very dark but you can't ignore the question of his heroism and his inherent ability. Otherwise, he ceases to be Batman—he becomes a different character, the Punisher, the Crow. The fans can argue about what defines Batman, but the heroism—the positivity of what he's actually doing—isn't up for discussion. Again, it's not just about making him darker—it's about making him more realistic. "

 

[Mrs.J]

Again, you fail to find som crazy guy with the motives and the aproach of the Joker. Because there is none. But then again you say that the persons motives does not matter, but for me it is what seperates Joker from the crazy people grounded in reality (that and how he goes about). This is not about kill rate or who is crazier. It's about the kind of crazyness The Joker has and how he acts (and how that magically goes along with his surrounding and making it possible for him to scheme like he does). It differs him vastly from Unibomber, Zodiac killer and others. Even the crazy murdering bastards here in scandinavia (child killers, serial killers and so on who americans know nothing about). That's not grounded in any kind of realism. And that makes the character so much better

But if motives does not come into account for you then I doubt we can come to any agreement, other to agree to disagree.

because there is no joker lol. This whole arguement its pointless. There is no joker there is not batman so it isnt real.

its based on things that COULD happen or things that are SIMILAR. There are crazies in the world. There are heroes in the world. We can RELATE to the movie.
This we all grasp.
This we all agree upon.
I feel like this is just an arguement stating the obvious.


jesus christ.


GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!
ima sick my babies on you allllllll!!!!!

 

[Dotten]

Sure you can, because that's what he is. So he doesn't live in hiding? Big deal. What you fail to understand is that CERTAIN ELEMENTS of this film are portrayed realistically, but NOT EVERYTHING. I don't know why that is such a difficult concept to grasp! Again, almost nothing produced in Hollywood is 100% realistic.

Also, there's more to Ledger's Joker that meets the eye. He's portrayed as an "absolute" and we see nothing of his origin, but that doesn't mean HE DOESN'T HAVE ONE. It just isn't discussed. Maybe his motives are personal. We don't know what happened to him. We don't see it, but it's obvious that something made him what he is. Also, Ledger plays him very human. Notice how sensitive he gets when people call him crazy. It bothers him. It bothers him a lot.

Look at the Zodiac Killer. He was quite unique in his own way. I believe there was a guy who tried to mimic what he did, but noone really compares to this guy. I look at Joker as a very unique character, as well. What he does is not impossible. He may not be able to take it as far as he ultimately does in this film, but his actions are not terribly far-fetched.

But those killers did not have a gang of people working for them. It's not Bin Laden. I will admit that the crazy people from Arkham is a very good move by Nolan to "sell it". But still, this was a man who did not do things on his own. He had his face all over the news and worked closely with others to get his plan in motion. It's absurd and unrealistic that he even gets close to pulling it of.

What makes him the most perfect villain of all superherouniverse is that there is no comparison. He gives a ****, he is a manipulator much more then even lex Luthor. He is a genious, but combined with no morals that is the most dangerous thing of all. It's an insult to the character to compare him to unibomber and so on. They were nothing in comparison.

 

[Tree27]

because there is no joker lol. This whole arguement its pointless. There is no joker there is not batman so it isnt real.

its based on things that COULD happen or things that are SIMILAR. There are crazies in the world. There are heroes in the world. We can RELATE to the movie.
This we all grasp.
This we all agree upon.
I feel like this is just an arguement stating the obvious.


jesus christ.


GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!
ima sick my babies on you allllllll!!!!!

true that, this is ******ed. everyone is intitled to they're own opinion.

 

[Joker]

He has used the "heightened reality" term a lot more though. There's no way to make Batman realistic without him not being Batman anymore, because the concept in and of itself is about as out there as you can get.

Also, that quote wasnt talking about the tone of the film, or the plot, but Batmans motivation. I can make people look like they're saying something else by just taking certain parts of it too.

 

[ArmsHeldOut]

Again, you fail to find som crazy guy with the motives and the aproach of the Joker. Because there is none. But then again you say that the persons motives does not matter, but for me it is what seperates Joker from the crazy people grounded in reality (that and how he goes about). This is not about kill rate or who is crazier. It's about the kind of crazyness The Joker has and how he acts (and how that magically goes along with his surrounding and making it possible for him to scheme like he does). It differs him vastly from Unibomber, Zodiac killer and others. Even the crazy murdering bastards here in scandinavia (child killers, serial killers and so on who americans know nothing about). That's not grounded in any kind of realism. And that makes the character so much better

But if motives does not come into account for you then I doubt we can come to any agreement, other to agree to disagree.

You basically only find something realistic or hyper-real, if it already happened in real life. That is where we differ. You don't entertain the possibility of something that could happen - at least on some level.

A lot of people don't think certain events can happen.. UNTIL THEY ACTUALLY DO. You're no different.

 

[Joker]

"Nolan said. "We were actually able to figure out more organically what it should be and the things we wanted to get, because we were looking for the textures of today's world. Exaggerated in some ways. A heightened reality, yes. But fundamentally grounded in today's world.""

 

[ArmsHeldOut]

He has used the "heightened reality" term a lot more though. There's no way to make Batman realistic without him not being Batman anymore, because the concept in and of itself is about as out there as you can get.

Also, that quote wasnt talking about the tone of the film, or the plot, but Batmans motivation. I can make people look like they're saying something else by just taking certain parts of it too.

Well, you and I both know the film isn't meant to be entirely realistic - only to a point. That's what is meant by hyper-realism. Dotten doesn't get that though.

 

[Dotten]

I entertain the idea of what can happen in my univese (outside my window). The Joker, in any capacity, could not happen. To quote Alfred:

Nevah!

 

[ArmsHeldOut]

But those killers did not have a gang of people working for them. It's not Bin Laden. I will admit that the crazy people from Arkham is a very good move by Nolan to "sell it". But still, this was a man who did not do things on his own. He had his face all over the news and worked closely with others to get his plan in motion. It's absurd and unrealistic that he even gets close to pulling it of.

What makes him the most perfect villain of all superherouniverse is that there is no comparison. He gives a ****, he is a manipulator much more then even lex Luthor. He is a genious, but combined with no morals that is the most dangerous thing of all. It's an insult to the character to compare him to unibomber and so on. They were nothing in comparison.

Dotten, Nolan mixes some realistic elements with some far fetched ideas. The result: Batman Begins and The Dark Knight

 

[Heretic]

I will be honest in saying that when a crazy person ills a bunch of people, I do not care why he did it. He's crazy...he did crazy things...and has a crazy, imagined reason for doing it. If some dude hacks up half a neighborhood, and then reveals that he did it to make a statement that Raisin Bran is better than Frosted Flakes, does it help in any way??? No, it doesnt.

So, what you are wanting is some crazy guy whos off the wall reasoning for doing crazy stuff is that he's an "agent of chaos" who wants to disrupt order???

People are crazy...they are able to function in society without being caught and are able to fund their activities and even have hundreds of devoted stooges. It happens. History is littered with them. Almost none of them had the same motive...which makes it no surprise when some new crazy pops up with an all new motive and method...being unique is kind of the point of being crazy.

 

[Superhobo]

I entertain the idea of what can happen in my univese (outside my window). The Joker, in any capacity, could not happen. To quote Alfred:

Nevah!

Son of Sam, The Zodiac Killer, etc., etc.

 

[Mrs.J]

true that, this is ******ed. everyone is intitled to they're own opinion.

alllllllllllll right then if you say so.
I wont sick my babies out on them this time

 

[Dotten]

Dotten, Nolan mixes some realistic elements with some far fetched ideas. The result: Batman Begins and The Dark Knight

And so did Singer, Donner, Favreau etc (I almost mention Story, but that would be stretching it to much ...)

I'm not disagreing with you, your actually making my point. Although it felt like Noland did not bother trying to disguise it, like he did in Batman Begins.

But there are clearly those who still is caught in the illusion. I kinda envy them.

 

[Majic Walrus]

This might be my favorite thread ever.

 

[Dotten]

Son of Sam, The Zodiac Killer, etc., etc.

Operating in hiding, no big scheme, no followers. That comparison is an insult to The Joker. Here in Norway we had to teenagers raping and killing two 8 year old girls. But that is not the same as The Joker. Far from it.

A Bin Laden without the fanaticism could be a comparison, but then again he had his goal. And he was a control-freak with a fantasy-book.

Analyze The Joker. He is something else.

 

[Joker]

alllllllllllll right then if you say so.
I wont sick my babies out on them this time

Am I the only one who thinks that there should have only been 2 dogs, and that the Joker should have renamed them Bud & Lou?

 

[Dotten]

This might be my favorite thread ever.

My question is: Should I place guards outside my house at night?

Have not seen this crazy response since the time we agreed to let the users of the forum I work as community manager for post the Muhammed-caricatures. I'm still waiting for some crazy fundamentalist showing up at my doorstep to decapitate me.

Internet - serious business. ^^

 

[Mrs.J]

Am I the only one who thinks that there should have only been 2 dogs, and that the Joker should have renamed them Bud & Lou?

I thought this too!!!!! That woulda been awesome
I doubt they will ever have harley in the movies

 

[Majic Walrus]

My question is: Should I place guards outside my house at night?

Have not seen this crazy response since the time we agreed to let the users of the forum I work as community manager for post the Muhammed-caricatures. I'm still waiting for some crazy fundamentalist showing up at my doorstep to decapitate me.

Internet - serious business. ^^

Nah don't worry, in real life there aren't any wicked evil people.

 

[ArmsHeldOut]

And so did Singer, Donner, Favreau etc (I almost mention Story, but that would be stretching it to much ...)

I'm not disagreing with you, your actually making my point. Although it felt like Noland did not bother trying to disguise it, like he did in Batman Begins.

But there are clearly those who still is caught in the illusion. I kinda envy them.

I actually found Batman Begins a lot more far fetched than Dark Knight. Bruce's journey around the world, for example. Even in the comics, he had his money to back him, but in Begins he abandons his wealth to live as a true vagrant and experience what that feels like. The last scene, as well.

Joker is pretty realistic to me, based on the reasons I mention above. I do agree, however, that he would be hard pressed to find a group of criminals who follows him and entertains his actions. Still, I don't think it's entirely impossible, whereas you do.

I do agree that all of the directors you mention above combine realistic and non realistic elements in their films, but Nolan leans toward the former a lot more than they ever did. He tries to give reasons for the unexplainable.

Batman and Joker are out there, but Superman is way out there!