The Dark Knight The Man Who Laughs: The Joker Thread 2.0

[Dark Globe]

I believe in ghosts. I just don't believe that seeing one should be reason enough to screw over a paying audience like that. Even if he did see his father I can't abide by that level of unprofessionalism.

Are you joking? How would you feel if you saw the ghost of your dead father? You wouldn't just stand there! It's obvious he had an emotional breakdown because of it. He didn't purposely rip any off and your reasons for not trusting him are disgusting.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

i dont see how you couldn't trust DDL just because he once thought he see a ghost and freaked out. that was once in about a million films or plays hes been involved with.

 

[(S)laughter 99]

Now don't get me wrong...I love this film!! The deep philosophical rants really interested me and it was a grade-A film.
However...the Joker seems to contradict himself sometimes:
"I'm not a schemer...I hate schemers!"
Did he not do an awful lot of scheming to set all his dastardly plans in motion? All of the explosive planting..the bank heist..the assassination attempt all took very thoughtful and careful...um..scheming often months in advance. The Joker may actually be the most scheming of all the film's characters.
"I am an agent of chaos..introduce a little anarchy"
The Joker believes so much in blatant chaos and no rules, but follows his careful plan to create said anarchy. Are there rules to making and planting explosives? The Joker essentially followed rules to later break them. But then it comes down to your definition of anarchy. Whether it's complete running around killing, or if it takes time. I'm rambling.
Debate!!
And...here...we...go!!

 

[Crook]

To make it as blunt as possible: he was lying. He said whatever things Harv and Two-Face needed to hear.

 

[tuffenoughtoroc]

I think the whole "schemer" part was a way for the Joker to trick Harvey. I thought the same thing too at first, but he was trying in anyway possible to manipulate and corrupt Harvey.

As far as the "rules". Anarchy doesn't necessarily mean no rules. I think it just meant that the joker had no ethics or morals. When it comes down to it, anarchy is rejecting the concept of rulers and masters (and government). I would go more in depth, but eh...

 

[Shane Diesel]

To make it as blunt as possible: he was lying. He said whatever things Harv and Two-Face needed to hear.

Exactly. Joker had this uncanny ability to instantly psychoanalyze you, asses your weaknesses and then formulate a plan to break down your mind. There's no hypocrisy there b/c he's not consistent since he does whatever it takes to corrupt your mind. It was such an incredibly well written character.

 

[Fanticon]

you started a thread to question the logic of a mass murdering maniac? Theres a laundry list of things that can categorize the areas of clinically declared insanity the joker falls under...so the question is irrelevant.

 

[Punk&ComicBooks]

Yea it was just a nice little manipulation that the joker overwhelmed harvey with...as for the anarchy thing there are a lot of contradictions to the actual people who try to carry it out as an `anarchist`

 

[DawnWarrior]

I think the part when Joker says, "I'm like a dog chasing a van. I wouldn't know what to do if I caught one!" What he's basically saying is that, while other traditional criminals (like the old Gotham Gangsters) commit crimes and plan elaborate heists, they're after something, i.e. money, revenge, whatever. Joker isn't after such things. His "schemes" to sow chaos aren't a means to an end; he's trying to create chaos for its own sake.

 

[Anita18]

At first I thought he was telling the truth to Harvey, and upon more pondering, I've decided that he played him like a fiddle by telling half-truths.

The Joker lies, and he lies to manipulate people. This doesn't make him a hypocrite, just one conniving SOB.

 

[Crook]

His schemes absolutely were a means to an end. Did you miss the entire corruption theme of the movie? That was a wide-scale ploy set up by Joker himself.

As I said before, (mostly) everything he said to Harvey was a ruse. Telling him that he was in Gordon's cell so he shouldn't be blamed for Rachel is crap. He's just saving his own ass and trying to piss Harvey off in other ways by blaming it on others.

 

[Yurka]

Okay, its as easy as this.

- Hes the Joker.
If you dont understand what that means, then its a lost cause.


End.

 

[magus]

Definitely not a hypocrite. Making **** up is just funny to him -- that's the joke.

 

[Jokerluv]

Okay, I'm probably going to be yelled at and laughed at, but I disagree. I believe the only two people he was completely honest with were Harvey and Batman. Everyone is capable of crimes and murder, it's just a matter of the right buttons being pushed, and he did that to Harvey. What he said to Harvey in the hospital about anarchy and the way the police are is true and his last speech to Batman sums everything up.

Does this make him a hypocrite, to an extent, yes, because it takes scheming/a plan to show these people, Gordon, police, mob, etc. that their attempts at controlling their little worlds is pathetic, but in the end he still succeeded.

 

[p4poetic]

Of course he's a hypocrite!! Exactly how he should be.

 

[Schlosser85]

I thought that too, for someone who says he's not a guy with a plan, and he's not a schemer, the movie's plot consists of one diabolical elaborate scheme hatched by The Joker after another.

I think when The Joker tells Batman "you complete me" is probably the most 100% honest he is in the whole movie.

 

[Closerframe]

IMO this is the condition the Joker has

Mythomania is a condition involving compulsive lying by a person with no obvious motivation. The affected person might believe their lies to be truth, and may have to create elaborate myths to reconcile them with other facts.

 

[Sweetchuck]

Just think of the manpower it would take to set up all those drums of Gasoline in the Hospital...Both Harvey And Rachels explosions..both ferries filled with gas barrels. Thats alot. And they had to be set up in secret too and Im also assuming quickly. So that would take alot of scheming

 

[Mangelo]

I agree with everyone on here that the Joker is a liar and master manipulator, but if there was one thing that could be deemed a contradiction in his "plan," it was the fact that at first he challenges Batman to take off his mask and reveal himself, yet by the end of the film, he puts a bounty on Reese for trying to do that very thing - - reveal Batman's identity. Of course, the Joker realizes that Batman is far too worthy an opponent (and far too fun) to give up, but he did change his tune once he got to spar with his arch-rival.

 

[tuffenoughtoroc]

The Joker isn't proud. He would turn a 180 without hesitation if that's how he felt at the moment.

 

[Tree27]

it's very hard to analise a being that dosen't exist, heh. but I'll say this,

I thought it was funny that the Joker was reading off of a script to the passengers on the ships, it shows he dose have a little for-thought "planning-esqu" but not exactly a plan.

that was randome,...but, frankly, he is what he is I guess. You can always trust a lier to lie, it's the truthful ones you gotta look out for.

 

[ChrisBaleBatman]

Joker....is....crazy.

 

[Axtech]

At first I thought he was telling the truth to Harvey, and upon more pondering, I've decided that he played him like a fiddle by telling half-truths.

The Joker lies, and he lies to manipulate people. This doesn't make him a hypocrite, just one conniving SOB.

Agreed, although I think he hit the nail on the head with this little speech (one of my favourites):

"You know what I noticed? Nobody panics as long as everything goes 'according to plan' ... even if the plan is horrifying! If tomorrow I tell the press that like a gangbanger will get shot, or a truckload of soldiers will be blown up, nobody panics, because it's all part of the plan. But when I say that one little old mayor will die, well then everyone loses their minds!

Introduce a little anarchy. Upset the established order, and everything becomes chaos. I'm an agent of chaos. And you know the thing about chaos? It's fair."

That is, I think, really the core of Joker's character, his motives (well, lack-there-of, really). Except, of course, that Joker doesn't care if chaos is fair, and may not even think it's fair at all. I think that bit was all for Harvey. Fairness is the least of Joker's concerns.

 

[Ziggyman]

Don't you know to never believe or trust a Joker!

...I would agree with many others that at first I thought he was telling the truth...But obviously...He did lie in the end...!

 

[AlterEgo]

Sorry, kinda on another topic but something didn't make sense.

When the Joker and talking to Two Face at the hospital he says "Nobody panics when the expected people got killed. Nobody panics when things go according to plan, even if the plans are horrifying. If I tell the press that tomorrow a gangbanger will get shot, or a truckload of soldiers will get blown up, nobody panics. But when I say one little old mayor will die, everyone loses their minds!! " what is the difference between gangbanger/soldiers dying and the mayor dying? How does it introduce anarchy? Or is it that he says tomorrow with the gangbanger/soldiers and doesn't with the mayor?