The Dark Knight The Man Who Laughs: The Joker Thread 2.0

I think you are right about him having some feelings and suppressing them. That was how I interpreted it in the meeting with the crime bosses when Gambol called him crazy and he said "No, I'm not." It was like, on some level, that hit a nerve and irritated him. Maybe it was just that they weren't being respectful of him, but whatever the reason there has to be some feeling underneath it to make him react that way.

The Joker as portrayed in the comics is kind of asexual, right? I don't think him and Harley are portrayed as having a fantastic sex life. But what's weird is that - at least the Joker in the "Dark Knight" - is portrayed as a pretty straight-up psychopath, and one of the traits of a psychopath is deviant sexual behavior or an extreme sexual appetite. (Someone posted the description of a psychopath in one of the Harvey Dent threads). So I don't know. There was something very sexually charged about him, yet the movie didn't really explore it. I can't see him as the kind of guy that would have a long-term relationship, that's for sure! And if he is interested in sex, it would be in a very sadistic way. Then again, maybe he's just too busy for it. Maybe he gets more satisfaction from blowing things up. :cwink:

Definitely.
 
Just finished reading Grant Morrison's prose, "The Clown at Midnight" from Batman # 663. Can definitely see how it influenced Ledger.

Joker from TDK: "You won't kill me because of some misplaced sense of self-righteousness. And I won't kill you because … you're just too much fun! I think you and I are destined to do this forever."

Joker from Clown at Midnight: "You can't kill me without becoming like me. I can't kill you without losing the only human being who can keep up with me. Isn't it IRONIC?"
 
Hm, is there a chance that it's mere coincidence the two are similar? I don't really remember many people raving about that particular piece. So it seems unlikely Ledger would have read/been given a random comic.
 
Hm, is there a chance that it's mere coincidence the two are similar? I don't really remember many people raving about that particular piece. So it seems unlikely Ledger would have read/been given a random comic.

Ledger read the story. It's where his list of things the Joker would find funny came from.
 
Did anyone get the feeling, that when after the Joker escapes from Jail he seems completely different. He seems like a different personality. Everytime I watch it, after he escapes from jail, we see him at the warehouse with the pile of money, and he seems like he switched into a different mode; a different person.
 
Ledger read the story. It's where his list of things the Joker would find funny came from.
Considering Joker's notoriety though, can't anyone knowledgeable on the character make a similar list?
 
Yeah, I read that. If it was exact though, then why would Ledger need to "make" one of his own? If he had his own copy already? I just think it's coincidence. :o
 
wow thanks for the link The sage.

Hey just a side note--are there any comics/novels that are batman/joker related that you would recommend. Ive been out of the loop for a while and havent read them like i used to.

Thanks again! :)
 
I remember months ago that there was a podcast featuring Ledger, in which he talked about The Joker and the Imaginarium of Doctor Parnassus. I remember listening to it, but would love to find it again. Does anyone know what im talking about, and if you do do you know where I could find it?
 
Interesting in the script, The Joker says:

"Like my mother used to tell me, if your'e good at something never do it for free"

Glad they removed the mother bit TBH....
 
Interesting in the script, The Joker says:

"Like my mother used to tell me, if your'e good at something never do it for free"

Glad they removed the mother bit TBH....


thats quite interesting, maybe his mother was a prostitute or something? it could explain his hate for his father if maybe he was a vicious pimp or summin, like maybe the joker was born into this world of sin and horror, with his mum as a brass and his dad as the evil pimp who used to beat his girls?
 
it's a good idea to avoid the Joker mentioning his mother in his opening scene at all, for any reason. people would thought oh another Norman Bates
 
Yeah, I read that. If it was exact though, then why would Ledger need to "make" one of his own? If he had his own copy already? I just think it's coincidence. :o

Obviously the Joker Diary was a collection of different inspirations and notes regarding The Joker. The list of things The Joker would find funny was only one entry in the diary. And it almost certainly was taken from "The Clown at Midnight".
 
Hm, is there a chance that it's mere coincidence the two are similar? I don't really remember many people raving about that particular piece. So it seems unlikely Ledger would have read/been given a random comic.

They SHOULD be raving about it. A lot of people rejected it at the time because it was prose, and because of the rather crappy art - particularly on the "cut-smile" Joker. But it is actually a fantastic read if you give it a chance, with one of the most terrifying portrayals of The Joker ever.
 
Another thing that occurred to me - maaaaaan, third post in a row, lame....

I think that, perhaps, The Joker gives us the most concrete clue to his past...not when talking to Gambol or Rachel, but in his conversation with Batman:

"What would I do without you, go back to ripping off mob dealers?"

Does anyone on here watch "The Wire"? This comment made me think that, before Batman, perhaps The Joker lived a life somewhat like Omar from "The Wire". A nomadic existence, robbing drug dealers then vanishing like a ghost in the night.
 
yea i completly agree, i even opened a thread comparing omar little and the joker but it got shut down for some reason.
 
They SHOULD be raving about it. A lot of people rejected it at the time because it was prose, and because of the rather crappy art - particularly on the "cut-smile" Joker. But it is actually a fantastic read if you give it a chance, with one of the most terrifying portrayals of The Joker ever.

not many people here were raving about it :o. but I'm sure more than a few people on the production would have been impressed. especially since it has some cool bits about Batman and Jokers relationship and the Joker's more similar to TDK than most portrayals


"What would I do without you, go back to ripping off mob dealers?"

Does anyone on here watch "The Wire"? This comment made me think that, before Batman, perhaps The Joker lived a life somewhat like Omar from "The Wire". A nomadic existence, robbing drug dealers then vanishing like a ghost in the night.

Agreed I've raised this a few times. He actually says "go back to ripping off mob dealers? No, no.......NO". Like he's recollecting something particularly amusing or significant on the last beat. I suspect this had to be deliberate on the part of Ledger. he's letting the inner Joker shine through again. From robbing mobsters to robbing their banks, with some very mysterious scars on your face, "what doesn't kill me".... I don't think this is a stretch at all. He gives away the secret with that final 'No'
 
thats quite interesting, maybe his mother was a prostitute or something? it could explain his hate for his father if maybe he was a vicious pimp or summin, like maybe the joker was born into this world of sin and horror, with his mum as a brass and his dad as the evil pimp who used to beat his girls?

See I'm glad they left that out. Everyone assumes that a person is psychotic b/c of a bad family relationship, traumatic events as a child, etc. But I like to think this Joker is in the mold of Leopold and Loeb. He had a great childhood, wasn't poor, etc. but just went crazy one day for no real reason. I know the comic book Joker had an origin tied into a traumatic event but its more engaging for me to believe this Joker is just crazy for no real reason.
 
I'm still not convinced of the "crazy" aspect of the Joker. The "super-sanity" bit sounds more likely.
 
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everyone should just buy the Batman & Son trade and ****
 
See I'm glad they left that out. Everyone assumes that a person is psychotic b/c of a bad family relationship, traumatic events as a child, etc. But I like to think this Joker is in the mold of Leopold and Loeb. He had a great childhood, wasn't poor, etc. but just went crazy one day for no real reason. I know the comic book Joker had an origin tied into a traumatic event but its more engaging for me to believe this Joker is just crazy for no real reason.
Then you're in favor of a pretty shallow character. You don't just "go crazy" out of the blue. That doesn't happen. You don't have to explain how, since it's not too important, but you have to at least recognize that Joker was pushed to madness.

Agreed I've raised this a few times. He actually says "go back to ripping off mob dealers? No, no.......NO". Like he's recollecting something particularly amusing or significant on the last beat. I suspect this had to be deliberate on the part of Ledger. he's letting the inner Joker shine through again. From robbing mobsters to robbing their banks, with some very mysterious scars on your face, "what doesn't kill me".... I don't think this is a stretch at all. He gives away the secret with that final 'No'
I think the entire interrogation scene was a glimpse into the Joker's past. The entire time he's explaining his views on the world to Batman, I sensed Joker actually talking about why he's the way he is. When he says "their morals, their code....it's a bad joke". It's said with such disdain that I can't help but feel he's experienced first-hand the atrocities of society and that was a major catalyst in creating him.

It makes his grand scheme even more significant. Breaking down Dent was a great ploy, as was the 2 barges. But when the latter failed to succeed, the look on his face speaks volumes. Instead of the cliched "nooooo!!" reaction the villain gives when his plans are foiled, Joker is dead-silent. It's one of the few times Joker has a quiet moment, and you can see how much it's affected him. Up to that point, Gotham had been his playground and everything was going to plan. He was sure that the ferries would blow up and when it doesn't, it's bitter disappointment. "You've gotta do ever-y-thing yourself" sounds like how a child would react when things don't go their way. Joker's response is to just blow it up anyway out of spite.

I also think Joker saw something in Dent that would make him a perfect candidate for his theory of "one bad day". It's clear that Joker hates rules, society, and order. Everything Harvey is the embodiment of. So if he could "break" Dent, then that wouldn't make Joker alone. Imo, Joker is seeking validation of his own psyche. When he first meets Batman in the room, it's almost a plea of sorts:

"don't talk like one of them, you're not!"

Then:

"to them you're just a freak....like meee."

A recognition of their shared status in society, and maybe a verbal of way of sticking out your hand for a peaceful shake? Perhaps.

I could go on and on, but I'm sure someone gets the point. :o
 
and that's why Batman says "you're alone" and effectively wins the battle. I agree Joker was more concerned about validating himself than trying to prove a point to anyone. If he could he'd re-figure the world into one where he isn't a freak, and that's why he attaches to Batman so much, not only another freak but focal point to concentrate his bitterness on. He's not that happy or cocky at all, he's desperate and ashamed. If he wasn't ashamed he wouldn't try so hard to 'redeem himself'
 

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