The Dark Knight The Man Who Laughs: The Joker Thread 2.0

[The Joker]

I think the entire interrogation scene was a glimpse into the Joker's past. The entire time he's explaining his views on the world to Batman, I sensed Joker actually talking about why he's the way he is. When he says "their morals, their code....it's a bad joke". It's said with such disdain that I can't help but feel he's experienced first-hand the atrocities of society and that was a major catalyst in creating him.

It makes his grand scheme even more significant. Breaking down Dent was a great ploy, as was the 2 barges. But when the latter failed to succeed, the look on his face speaks volumes. Instead of the cliched "nooooo!!" reaction the villain gives when his plans are foiled, Joker is dead-silent. It's one of the few times Joker has a quiet moment, and you can see how much it's affected him. Up to that point, Gotham had been his playground and everything was going to plan. He was sure that the ferries would blow up and when it doesn't, it's bitter disappointment. "You've gotta do ever-y-thing yourself" sounds like how a child would react when things don't go their way. Joker's response is to just blow it up anyway out of spite.

I also think Joker saw something in Dent that would make him a perfect candidate for his theory of "one bad day". It's clear that Joker hates rules, society, and order. Everything Harvey is the embodiment of. So if he could "break" Dent, then that wouldn't make Joker alone. Imo, Joker is seeking validation of his own psyche. When he first meets Batman in the room, it's almost a plea of sorts:

"don't talk like one of them, you're not!"

Then:

"to them you're just a freak....like meee."

A recognition of their shared status in society, and maybe a verbal of way of sticking out your hand for a peaceful shake? Perhaps.

I could go on and on, but I'm sure someone gets the point.

Magnificently said

 

[Shane Diesel]

Then you're in favor of a pretty shallow character. You don't just "go crazy" out of the blue. That doesn't happen. You don't have to explain how, since it's not too important, but you have to at least recognize that Joker was pushed to madness.

Actually I'm in favor of an absolute character. Not one who is pushed from good to evil, but was evil since his inception. There's no excuses for their abhorrent behavior. You can't explain or excuse any of it. That's a much more frightening character than someone who has a vendetta against humanity b/c of some traumatic event.

 

[Crook]

Also forgot to add one last point. Has there been much talk about Joker's laughing moment before he gives his final speech? The part where he gets thrown off the building by Bats?

I've kinda gained a new perspective on why Joker always laughs as he's about to die. Whether it be in the comics, animation, or in the movies. Maybe it's just me, but anyone else think whether subconsciously or not, Joker doesn't intend on keeping himself alive? But rather causing as much damage as he can while being alive?

I know most people think Joker just laughs because he's insane, but when Batman saves him, there's a very short moment where he's still laughing and goes "huh?" when he realizes he's stopped falling. It looked like he was perturbed from enjoying his last fulfilling moment alive. IIRC, people took the "Ooh, you couldn't let me go...could ya?!" line as a disappointment that Batman refused to break his rule. However part of me thinks in addition to that, he was also sad that he couldn't be "let go" from this life. This ties into the idea of Joker seeking companions who are the same like him. If he can't find them, then what's the point of living? Suicide is probably shameful in Joker's head, but he'll gladly let someone do it for him.

I don't know. Just ranting.

 

[Crook]

Actually I'm in favor of an absolute character. Not one who is pushed from good to evil, but was evil since his inception. There's no excuses for their abhorrent behavior. You can't explain or excuse any of it. That's a much more frightening character than someone who has a vendetta against humanity b/c of some traumatic event.

Is it really that more frightening? And how would you be able to judge such things in context?

When he blows up an entire hospital and revels in it's destruction, are you gonna be thinking about what led to such an evil person? If so, would you be more scared solely from the notion that he was "born" this way? Maybe it's just me, but umm....he just blew up a damn hospital and is SMILING. Origins be damned, that's one f'd up individual whichever way you look at it. None is more frightening than the other when you arrive at the same precise location.

My interest isn't in what's scarier, because Joker is inherently fulfilling that in practically every interpretation. If you write the Joker that is true to his character, the violent behavior, the aggressive tone, and pure madness will manifest itself. I'm interested in depth and character exploration. An individual that "just is" lacks growth and is simply not a character that can be written into multiple stories. The very fact that many writers have explored Joker's psyche, in various ways, and to this day has retained the title of greatest comic book villain ever....that to me just proves how Joker is far from being an absolute.

There is no doubt there are underlying roots to Joker's insanity, albeit not clearly defined. That's the beauty of keeping some facets a mystery, because there are all these beautiful theories people can come up with that are valid. I wouldn't have it any other way. I'd definitely take it over the hackneyed explanation of "oh he's just born evil and that's all there is to it". Boring.

 

[Shane Diesel]

Is it really that more frightening? And how would you be able to judge such things in context?

When he blows up an entire hospital and revels in it's destruction, are you gonna be thinking about what led to such an evil person? If so, would you be more scared solely from the notion that he was "born" this way? Maybe it's just me, but umm....he just blew up a damn hospital and is SMILING. Origins be damned, that's one f'd up individual whichever way you look at it. None is more frightening than the other when you arrive at the same precise location.

My interest isn't in what's scarier, because Joker is inherently fulfilling that in practically every interpretation. If you write the Joker that is true to his character, the violent behavior, the aggressive tone, and pure madness will manifest itself. I'm interested in depth and character exploration. An individual that "just is" lacks growth and is simply not a character that can be written into multiple stories. The very fact that many writers have explored Joker's psyche, in various ways, and to this day has retained the title of greatest comic book villain ever....that to me just proves how Joker is far from being an absolute.

There is no doubt there are underlying roots to Joker's insanity, albeit not clearly defined. That's the beauty of keeping some facets a mystery, because there are all these beautiful theories people can come up with that are valid. I wouldn't have it any other way. I'd definitely take it over the hackneyed explanation of "oh he's just born evil and that's all there is to it". Boring.

Its my preference. I don't understand why that bothers you so much.

 

[Crook]

It doesn't.

I was explaining my views on why I despise a one-note interpretation of the character and why I don't think it exists for Joker. You are free to like whatever you want, in however way you want. Notice how I never said you couldn't or shouldn't like it.

 

[Shane Diesel]

It doesn't.

I was explaining my views on why I despise a one-note interpretation of the character. You are free to like whatever you want. Notice how I never said you couldn't or shouldn't like it.

Well ok then. The little sneaky jabs of "you're in favor of a shallow character" and "boring" made it seem otherwise. It looked like your panties we're getting all twisted for no reason. Glad we cleared things up.

 

[Matrixo]

Also forgot to add one last point. Has there been much talk about Joker's laughing moment before he gives his final speech? The part where he gets thrown off the building by Bats?

I've kinda gained a new perspective on why Joker always laughs as he's about to die. Whether it be in the comics, animation, or in the movies. Maybe it's just me, but anyone else think whether subconsciously or not, Joker doesn't intend on keeping himself alive? But rather causing as much damage as he can while being alive?

I know most people think Joker just laughs because he's insane, but when Batman saves him, there's a very short moment where he's still laughing and goes "huh?" when he realizes he's stopped falling. It looked like he was perturbed from enjoying his last fulfilling moment alive. IIRC, people took the "Ooh, you couldn't let me go...could ya?!" line as a disappointment that Batman refused to break his rule. However part of me thinks in addition to that, he was also sad that he couldn't be "let go" from this life. This ties into the idea of Joker seeking companions who are the same like him. If he can't find them, then what's the point of living? Suicide is probably shameful in Joker's head, but he'll gladly let someone do it for him.

I don't know. Just ranting.

I think your right, he laughs at death. But it's not like he wants to die, he just expects it.

The Joker is probably the only person I can imagine laughing while burning in hell.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

i like to think that it was SERIES of unfortunate events that made he the way he is. it makes me think what could of happened to this person to make him despise normal life and what it means to be human. i think that he sees the whole of humanity as a joke, and that he is the one who will break it down. its like he is the primal instincts of mankind personified, thats why i think there was a underlying theme of dogs throughout the whole film. dogs have no sense of order,no morality just pure primal instinct and i think thats how the jokers mind works.

 

[jackjack924]

i like to think that it was SERIES of unfortunate events that made he the way he is. it makes me think what could of happened to this person to make him despise normal life and what it means to be human. i think that he sees the whole of humanity as a joke, and that he is the one who will break it down. its like he is the primal instincts of mankind personified, thats why i think there was a underlying theme of dogs throughout the whole film. dogs have no sense of order,no morality just pure primal instinct and i think thats how the jokers mind works.

Well that depends. The use of dogs is extreamly interesting to me. First, you had the Joker, who was described as "a mad dog." This particular dog has no morals and just causes distruction and it is very possible that this dog is also extreamly sick. It is impossible to tame this dog so the only option is to shoot it. If you don't, it will keep killing, attacking, etc until it is eventually put down. Unfortunatly, the only one who can put this dog down does not use guns and does not kill. So it will keep destroying.

There are also the Chechen's (sp?) dogs. These dogs seem to be very loyal to their master. But then at the end of the film we see that the Joker has complete control of these dogs despite spending almost no time with them. We can also asume that the dogs did indeed eat or at least kill their former master. This could somewhat represent part of the moral philosophy of the Joker.

"Then we'll see how loyal a hungry dog really is."
"When the chips are down, these 'civilized' people, they'll eat eachother."

Basically it doesn't matter how well trained you are or who you are loyal too. In the end, all you really are is just a hungry beast that will do anything to survive. No morals, no code. Just pure, killer, anarcic instinct.

whether or not the Joker is correct is up for debate...

 

[Keyser Soze]

It doesn't.

I was explaining my views on why I despise a one-note interpretation of the character and why I don't think it exists for Joker. You are free to like whatever you want, in however way you want. Notice how I never said you couldn't or shouldn't like it.

I can see both sides of the argument. On one hand, you did an excellent job speculating on The Joker's motivation in that post at the end of last page. I could definitely see a theory like this holding water, that The Joker has been left hurt and bitter by events in his life, and now wants the rest of the world to be as miserable, nihilistic and "broken" as he is deep inside. A lot of people are raving about the pencil trick scene, or Joker Nurse, but for me - more and more in every repeat viewing - the one moment that truly solidifies Ledger as the ultimate Joker thus far is the one you single out, the look on his face when he realises the people on the ferry aren't playing along with his game. That expression could very well be the core of the character.

However, I can also see the appeal of the other school of thought. Jonathan Nolan has said he liked the idea that The Joker just...apparated out of thin air, moments before that first shot of his back, standing on the street corner, from the prologue. The idea that The Joker is essentially the Devil, an absolute force of pure evil.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Well that depends. The use of dogs is extreamly interesting to me. First, you had the Joker, who was described as "a mad dog." This particular dog has no morals and just causes distruction and it is very possible that this dog is also extreamly sick. It is impossible to tame this dog so the only option is to shoot it. If you don't, it will keep killing, attacking, etc until it is eventually put down. Unfortunatly, the only one who can put this dog down does not use guns and does not kill. So it will keep destroying.

There are also the Chechen's (sp?) dogs. These dogs seem to be very loyal to their master. But then at the end of the film we see that the Joker has complete control of these dogs despite spending almost no time with them. We can also asume that the dogs did indeed eat or at least kill their former master. This could somewhat represent part of the moral philosophy of the Joker.

"Then we'll see how loyal a hungry dog really is."
"When the chips are down, these 'civilized' people, they'll eat eachother."

Basically it doesn't matter how well trained you are or who you are loyal too. In the end, all you really are is just a hungry beast that will do anything to survive. No morals, no code. Just pure, killer, anarcic instinct.

whether or not the Joker is correct is up for debate...

thats what i was getting at, i feel this joker is all of mankinds animalistic, primal instincts personified. if everyone is honest, deep down inside us we would probly love to do what the joker does (obviously not killing) but i mean just his pure determination and philosophy on life could be seen as the clear, crystaline truth of our nature. basically he is all of us stripped down to the bare bones of our subconciousnous.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

I was thinking that Joker really reminded me of Omar from the TV series The Wire. In the interrogation scene the joker says he doesn't want to go back to ripping off "mob dealers" alluding that he may have been a "stick up guy" before his ascention to the top of the underworld. Both Joker and Omar are very charasmatic characters who obviously are also very meticulous with their planning. I've seen quotes from people involved in TDK that The Wire was also a influence on the film, maybe Omar is a character the Nolans looked at when writing the Joker?

 

[Keyser Soze]

I was thinking that Joker really reminded me of Omar from the TV series The Wire. In the interrogation scene the joker says he doesn't want to go back to ripping off "mob dealers" alluding that he may have been a "stick up guy" before his ascention to the top of the underworld. Both Joker and Omar are very charasmatic characters who obviously are also very meticulous with their planning. I've seen quotes from people involved in TDK that The Wire was also a influence on the film, maybe Omar is a character the Nolans looked at when writing the Joker?

I would definitely venture to say that I see shades of The Wire's Baltimore in Nolan's Gotham.

Even going back to the virals, the narrative behind the race for District Attorney reminded me a lot of the race for Mayor over Season 3/4 of "The Wire". The scheming incumbent who resorts to smear tactics (Royce/Garcetti), the charismatic young candidate who starts as an outsider before picking up huge public support for his hard stance against crime (Carcetti/Dent), and the third wheel who doesn't stand a chance of winning, even though they arguably care more about the city than either of their more ambitious opponents (Gray/Worthington).

 

[Ace of Knaves]

thats what i was getting at, i feel this joker is all of mankinds animalistic, primal instincts personified. if everyone is honest, deep down inside us we would probly love to do what the joker does (obviously not killing) but i mean just his pure determination and philosophy on life could be seen as the clear, crystaline truth of our nature. basically he is all of us stripped down to the bare bones of our subconciousnous.

sorry to bump this but i want to see what people think about what i said

 

[The Shape]

The Joker was simply giggling as he was falling to his death because he thought Batman had finally broken his rule.

In The Dark Knight, the Joker was all about showing the world that everyone was as crazy and evil as he was. That's why he holds Batman to a different standard, because Batman never falters. The Joker was able to take Harvey and bring him down to the Joker's level, as he states in the movie, and he is also able to make the citizens of Gotham attempt to kill Reese. He fails, however, to push Batman to breaking his one rule, which is why he sees Batman as his only true foe. "I think you and I are destined to do this forever." This means he feels that niether one of them will falters, and their game will go on forever, as it has in the comics. Great stuff and I'm so glad to finally see this epic confrontation in the Batman film.

 

[regwec]

I think this Joker is also an individual that just likes to let sensory stimulation rush through him without really worrying about it. He probably found falling off a skyscraper to be as exciting and fascinating as torturing Bryan to death, firing rockets at an armoured car, and being beaten half to death by Batman.

 

[The Sage]

Then you're in favor of a pretty shallow character. You don't just "go crazy" out of the blue. That doesn't happen. You don't have to explain how, since it's not too important, but you have to at least recognize that Joker was pushed to madness.


I think the entire interrogation scene was a glimpse into the Joker's past. The entire time he's explaining his views on the world to Batman, I sensed Joker actually talking about why he's the way he is. When he says "their morals, their code....it's a bad joke". It's said with such disdain that I can't help but feel he's experienced first-hand the atrocities of society and that was a major catalyst in creating him.

It makes his grand scheme even more significant. Breaking down Dent was a great ploy, as was the 2 barges. But when the latter failed to succeed, the look on his face speaks volumes. Instead of the cliched "nooooo!!" reaction the villain gives when his plans are foiled, Joker is dead-silent. It's one of the few times Joker has a quiet moment, and you can see how much it's affected him. Up to that point, Gotham had been his playground and everything was going to plan. He was sure that the ferries would blow up and when it doesn't, it's bitter disappointment. "You've gotta do ever-y-thing yourself" sounds like how a child would react when things don't go their way. Joker's response is to just blow it up anyway out of spite.

I also think Joker saw something in Dent that would make him a perfect candidate for his theory of "one bad day". It's clear that Joker hates rules, society, and order. Everything Harvey is the embodiment of. So if he could "break" Dent, then that wouldn't make Joker alone. Imo, Joker is seeking validation of his own psyche. When he first meets Batman in the room, it's almost a plea of sorts:

"don't talk like one of them, you're not!"

Then:

"to them you're just a freak....like meee."

A recognition of their shared status in society, and maybe a verbal of way of sticking out your hand for a peaceful shake? Perhaps.

I could go on and on, but I'm sure someone gets the point.

That was fantastic. I agree.

Also forgot to add one last point. Has there been much talk about Joker's laughing moment before he gives his final speech? The part where he gets thrown off the building by Bats?

I've kinda gained a new perspective on why Joker always laughs as he's about to die. Whether it be in the comics, animation, or in the movies. Maybe it's just me, but anyone else think whether subconsciously or not, Joker doesn't intend on keeping himself alive? But rather causing as much damage as he can while being alive?

I know most people think Joker just laughs because he's insane, but when Batman saves him, there's a very short moment where he's still laughing and goes "huh?" when he realizes he's stopped falling. It looked like he was perturbed from enjoying his last fulfilling moment alive. IIRC, people took the "Ooh, you couldn't let me go...could ya?!" line as a disappointment that Batman refused to break his rule. However part of me thinks in addition to that, he was also sad that he couldn't be "let go" from this life. This ties into the idea of Joker seeking companions who are the same like him. If he can't find them, then what's the point of living? Suicide is probably shameful in Joker's head, but he'll gladly let someone do it for him.

I don't know. Just ranting.

Keep on ranting. It's good stuff.

 

[Banquet]

I think this Joker is also an individual that just likes to let sensory stimulation rush through him without really worrying about it. He probably found falling off a skyscraper to be as exciting and fascinating as torturing Bryan to death, firing rockets at an armoured car, and being beaten half to death by Batman.

I have to agree with you the most on this topic. While the other reasons, such as Batman breaking his rule, Joker wanting to die, etc. are plausible reasons from a perspective that builds on past events, the Joker really doesn't seem to care when he's "in the moment." He laughs because he just loves the extremes, no other real reason for that particular moment. I don't think he even thought about it at all until after he was stopped and hoisted back up.

It struck me that in an interview with Goyer, he said the Joker was surprisingly easy to write for because he represents an absolute. Everyone can know who he is because he's a character who is represented in every human mythology. Does anyone have thoughts on this?

 

[Spade]

It's part of what makes him appealing. He's like a walking case of Ebola- death-dealing, indiscriminate, capable of corruption...the Joker's the manure that hits the fan when things go wrong. He has no supernatural powers, but his actions are so inhumane that nothing he does is ordinary. Ledger's take adds to this, making him look more like Death than a clown and reminding us of the sort of fear we used to have of horned devils and the like.

To me, that's what makes him such a special character to the comic book world. If comics are our myth, then the Joker is the Loki or Lucifer of our age.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

i think the joker is basically all of mankinds primal, anamalistic instincts personified. hes us but stripped down to the bare desires of our subconcious, he is what we would be with no sense of morality, loyalty or order. to be honest some of the things he said in the interrogation really rang true, like about the whole of humanitys sense of order is just a joke and that it isn't our true selves.

 

[ronny]

It struck me that in an interview with Goyer, he said the Joker was surprisingly easy to write for because he represents an absolute. Everyone can know who he is because he's a character who is represented in every human mythology. Does anyone have thoughts on this?

I agree wholeheartedly with this. Comic books are a modern mythology. Beings and scenarios that, whilst fantastic, hold a very real insight into our ambitions and fears.
And a great fear is of the man who is without moral constraint. Loki, the trickster who becomes more malevolent until he attacks the other Gods. Set, the god of chaos who chops up a rival and feeds him to crocodiles along the Nile.
The Joker from the comics and the film is very much in the mould. When we're gone I daresay that future generations will equate The Joker to other characters from older cultures.

 

[The Caped Knight]

http://www.gameinformer.com/News/Story/200808/N08.0812.1226.23309.htm

Game Informer subscribers are in for a real treat this month. We’re proud to bring you the world-exclusive first look at Batman: Arkham Asylum from Rocksteady Studios and Eidos. This completely original title explores Gotham City’s darkest location, the infamous Arkham Asylum. But as a routine prison transfer goes wrong, The Joker sets his demented plan into action and Batman comes face to face with an army of his worst enemies. In a dark and gritty setting reminiscent of Bioshock (with a story co-written by Paul Dini), Arkham Asylum is setting the stage for a true-to-character Batman game.

 

[Two_Face]

Will this be a game for systems like the PS3 & Xbox 360?

 

[Ace of Knaves]

yea it will probly be on all formats. if its anything like BIOSHOCK then i am deffs getting this game, bioshock is my favourite game ever, then add batman to the mix and we are talking insanely awesome stuff.