The Official Batman (1989) Thread - Part 5

[The Shape]

I just watched this, for about the billionth time. I frickin love Jack's Joker. He is a selfish, venal, exhibitionist, murderous sexual predator. But he is human- a horrible, corrupted human. Unlike Ledger's omniscient painted daemon, Jack's Joker is the worst of 80s masculinity, unleashed by a lurid chemical infusion. It's so, so fitting.

You articulated this perfectly. Well said. Now I have the itch to re-watch it.

 

[Keehar]

I agree with most of that to some degree. I didn't really mind he was a bit dumpy. It's not like he was carrying junk in the trunk. It's no secret fans hated the killing the parents angle. That was contrived and unnecessary, and spoils their relationship for me. In fact I'd call it one of the worst ideas ever done for a CBM. Even script writer Sam Hamm disowns it. The Prince stuff was forced in by WB as a marketing ploy. Burton didn't even want it in there. Things like this are why Burton made it a condition that he had more creative control for the sequel.

The flesh make up thing was strange. The only time I've seen Joker do that is when he's disguising himself, which he clearly was not trying to do in the movie as everyone knew he was Joker. I mean he even announces himself as Joker on TV when he delivers that message about dumping 20 mil on the crowd at midnight. I did hate that he kept covering up his clown visage like that because his Joker look was great. The Vicki Vale stalking thing was just bad, and a waste of time that could have been spent on more interesting things.

The Batman feud, have to agree there, too. Only one proper scene with Batman and Joker face to face in the movie, that's the end, and it's basically Batman wailing on him for killing his parents. That was a big disappointment for me, and doesn't encapsulate the Batman/Joker relationship for me at all.

Not to go off topic, but him and the Joker from The Batman cartoon are the only two I can't stomach visually.

Didn't know that stuff about Hamm, and Burton with the Prince songs though. Respect to them for that.

 

[Mandon Knight]

Speaking of the toys does anyone remember Batmania of 1989? I was 8 years old at the time, I live in Ireland, and I wasn't a Batman fan yet (Returns made me a fan in '92), so I don't remember anything of it.

Was it centered in America or was it a worldwide thing?

Here in the UK it was mania, queues round the blocks, we hadn't seen anything like it since the original Star Wars films frankly...

 

[Greens]

I mean he even announces himself as Joker on TV when he delivers that message about dumping 20 mil on the crowd at midnight.

I think the flesh make-up made the most sense in that scene. He put on a "respectable, trustworthy" guy persona by making himself look like a soap opera character. Reading a book, normal clothing.

He probably could have appeared in his full get-up, because the Gothamites were pretty damn stupid in the movie.

 

[Travesty]

The whole point was to gain Gotham's trust, by fooling them into thinking he wasn't a freak clown.

-"I have taken off my makeup...lets see if you can take off yours"

 

[The Joker]

Here in the UK it was mania, queues round the blocks, we hadn't seen anything like it since the original Star Wars films frankly...

Thanks. That is rather cool.

I think the flesh make-up made the most sense in that scene. He put on a "respectable, trustworthy" guy persona by making himself look like a soap opera character. Reading a book, normal clothing

After he just tried to kill them all by poisoning their products, putting on some make up and normal clothes is supposed to make him trustworthy.

LOL.

I mean he shows up to the parade in full Joker get up so it makes it even more pointless that he did that.

He probably could have appeared in his full get-up, because the Gothamites were pretty damn stupid in the movie.

Isn't that the truth.

 

[Rodrigo90]

Gothamites weren't stupid, just desperate.
"I'm desperate to get home." Gets attacked.
"I'm desperate to look good." Get poisoned.
"I need money for drugs." Get poisoned, again

 

[regwec]

As in every Batman movie yet, they were just a reactive chorus to the destructive rivalry between the principle characters.

 

[Keehar]

Gothamites weren't stupid, just desperate.
"I'm desperate to get home." Gets attacked.
"I'm desperate to look good." Get poisoned.
"I need money for drugs." Get poisoned, again

Nope they were stupid. There's nothing desperate about using regular products like deodorants and stuff. It's dumb to say the whole city was junkies. They were just saps who believed the guy that tried to kill them all. Man they almost deserved to die for being that dumb. The tourist guy at the start was just a dumbass who thought he knew where he was going. His kid was more clued in than he was haha.

As in every Batman movie yet, they were just a reactive chorus to the destructive rivalry between the principle characters.

Except it was done in a dumb way in this one.

 

[regwec]

Uh huh...

 

[Rodrigo90]

Well, every citizen of Gotham has to be susceptible to the chaos that surrounds them. Anybody and everybody can be a victim to crime. It's just in B89's case that Gotham's citizens were greedy shmucks, as pointed out by Knox, who were also very much indeed idiots for attending a parade, held by a homicidal clown, who just last week poured arsenic into their bottles of Calvin Klein smellies.

 

[Lead Cenobite]

Where were these rules about what the Joker would and wouldn't do decided? Like that stuff about him being sexless and disinterested in women? I mean, was this something that was definitively decided in the early days of the Joker's existence or was it just something a writer from the 70s or 80s came up with after looking back over the character's history and interpreting him?

 

[regwec]

He's become gayer over time, if that's what you're driving at. His obsession with Batman, once a conventional antagonism towards a heroic nemesis, has lately been developed into an unrequited sexual love.

 

[Rodrigo90]

I was fine with him having a crush on Vicki. Yes, it was just shoehorned into his character in order to have Batman rescue the damsel in distress, with the irony being that it was his alter-ego's lover. I don't mind that at all. Was it contrived? Of course. But it made the film more fun. Without it, which would've been just as fine with a different writing direction, because as we all obviously know, you don't need a love interest in the middle of the dynamic between a hero and a villain. But without it, the style of the film, and it's something I love, would've been less, if you know what I mean? Burton was inspired by many old horror movies, and in most of those movies, a villain takes the hero's love up to the highest tower of his dark castle, where she must be rescued from his evil clutches. It's something I never really thought of before, but I guess it's noticeable when in comparison.

And as for the Joker being asexual so love and sex doesn't matter to him...That was more or less true, until Harley showed up in the 90's. But there was a never rule installed within the character to suggest he couldn't be attracted to women. It's just something we never saw.

 

[Rodrigo90]

He's become gayer over time, if that's what you're driving at. His obsession with Batman, once a conventional antagonism towards a heroic nemesis, has lately been developed into an unrequited sexual love.

It just proves the old saying,
"There's a thin line between love and hate."

 

[The Joker]

Nope they were stupid. There's nothing desperate about using regular products like deodorants and stuff. It's dumb to say the whole city was junkies. They were just saps who believed the guy that tried to kill them all. Man they almost deserved to die for being that dumb. The tourist guy at the start was just a dumbass who thought he knew where he was going. His kid was more clued in than he was haha.

Exactly.

Where were these rules about what the Joker would and wouldn't do decided? Like that stuff about him being sexless and disinterested in women? I mean, was this something that was definitively decided in the early days of the Joker's existence or was it just something a writer from the 70s or 80s came up with after looking back over the character's history and interpreting him?

It's something that has always been a staple of the character. Joker is virtually asexual. He certainly doesn't take random fancies to women he sees in photos, and then begin a bunny boiler like obsession over them. Joker doesn't care about things like that. He's got no time for women or romance.

It added nothing to the proceedings of the movie, other than give Batman someone to have to rescue twice.

With Harley Quinn, it's not a sexual thing. She was a means to an end. Joker mentally messed with her mind when she was his shrink and used her to help him escape from Arkham. And now she's a doormat hench woman for him. As Batman so truthfully told her "He had you pegged for hired help the minute you walked into Arkham".

 

[Rodrigo90]

Jack's Joker was unique to comicbook Joker. His extreme narcissism and keen artistic eye lead him to chase after Vicki. He did try to spray her face with acid. Noticing her beauty, and then attempting to morph it into his own creative fantasy. I suspect that was a driving force, ontop of Jack's sexual drive.

 

[Keehar]

Comic book Joker likes to go around re-arranging pretty girl's faces?

 

[Rodrigo90]

Comic book Joker likes to go around re-arranging pretty girl's faces?

But for what reasons?
In B89, it has to do with his disturbed fantasies of art. That's not the case in the comics.

 

[The Joker]

Comic book Joker likes to go around re-arranging pretty girl's faces?

No. In fact that whole thing with Alicia's scarred face and the mask is a Black Mask rip off. He had a girlfriend named Circe who's face he scarred up, and then she went around wearing a mask;

 

[Rodrigo90]

Oh, that's what he meant
And yeah, that's the point. In the comics, he'll arrange your face in the image of his own, like he does in B89, but not to do with warped love of art.

 

[Decepticonus]

Are the Gothamites stupid, yeah probably but I'm not surprised. Remember in TDKR he goes on the Letterman show essentially and people are there to see him. Does he kill them? Well of course and I have no doubt behind the scenes though it's not written that the episode of the late show had GREAT ratings and other late hosts were like "What he got The Joker?! Damn it, how do we top that?!"

Forgive me if I drive a little off topic but this is to better state my point. Take Che' Guevara for example. This is a man, a Marxist revolutionary on the side of Fidel Castro, a enemy of the United States. Che' made it clear in speeches he wanted to nuke America. He wanted to kill people and he was even behind a plot to bomb New York Times Square, Macy's the whole she-bang on Black Friday (the day after Thanksgiving) in 1964 I do believe. Luckily, the FBI was on top of it and stopped it but it's fully documented. Nonetheless, to this day people go nuts for him. He come back to life and walk down Main Street and plenty would run out to see him, greet him, get an autograph and shake his hand.

So are Gothamites stupid? Well, no people in general, the public is very stupid. They like the killer or the useless Kardashian more than a guy who may have opened a home for the poor or a woman who saved a 5 year child from drowning in the river. The former two drive crowds not the latter.

 

[Travesty]

Gothamites have been shown to be stupid in every single medium. They have to be, in order to have crazy villains run loose, while they rely on a Bat-Man to help round them up.

It's pretty much a given.

 

[Rodrigo90]

Stupid and weak. If they weren't, Batman would be out of a job

 

[The Joker]

Are the Gothamites stupid, yeah probably but I'm not surprised. Remember in TDKR he goes on the Letterman show essentially and people are there to see him. Does he kill them? Well of course and I have no doubt behind the scenes though it's not written that the episode of the late show had GREAT ratings and other late hosts were like "What he got The Joker?! Damn it, how do we top that?!"

That was very different. He was in custody, with a legion of Cops guarding the building. He appeared to be a neutered threat. The news also stated there had been public outrage that the Joker was billed to appear on the show.

Unlike in Batman '89 where he was free, with an army of henchman, and literally just days ago tried to kill the whole city.

Forgive me if I drive a little off topic but this is to better state my point. Take Che' Guevara for example. This is a man, a Marxist revolutionary on the side of Fidel Castro, a enemy of the United States. Che' made it clear in speeches he wanted to nuke America. He wanted to kill people and he was even behind a plot to bomb New York Times Square, Macy's the whole she-bang on Black Friday (the day after Thanksgiving) in 1964 I do believe. Luckily, the FBI was on top of it and stopped it but it's fully documented. Nonetheless, to this day people go nuts for him. He come back to life and walk down Main Street and plenty would run out to see him, greet him, get an autograph and shake his hand.

Forgive me but on what basis are you assuming that if he was alive today, the people of America (whom he allegedly wanted to kill) would go nuts for him and run and greet him and shake his hand?

Not to mention Che's history continues to be rewritten and re-imagined. There was no such issue with the Joker.