The Official Batman Returns Thread - Part 2

[shauner111]

Yeah, if we're talking about the costume, i understand people saying Michelle was better. The ears, the cowl, the whip, and the over-sexual acting...it's all there. But some other character is underneath. A Tim Burton fantasy.

Hathaway's was giving you the classic brunette but with the hair down and the ears. There was also a bit of a twist on the modern goggles.

My personal definitive Catwoman suit is a lot like Michelle's but with the goggles over the cowl. With a Selina who has short dark hair underneath. Whip and all. But with Anne's characterization of the character.

The character means more to me than the visual though, and so i side with Hathaway who didnt overdo it with the licking herself, etc. Which i think was rubbish. Since Anne was actually playing Selina Kyle and not some other woman, ill always take her side.

 

[regwec]

I am certainly not not just talking about "visual". I am talking about the performances of the actresses, and their interpretation of the character. In that regard, I found Pfieffer's characterisation much closer to my perceptions of Catwoman than I did Hathaway's.

This is, of course, to ignore the script. There is little dispute that "Selina" in TDKR does things that are more in common with the comics. But, in my view, and it is just my view, Hathaway's performance was so dull and underpowered that the character was almost wasted.

To avoid confusion I will use an analogy: imagine there are two films featuring actors playing Sir Winston Churchill. One is a fairly worthy biopic set during the WWII years, and features Sir Winston attending historically accurate cabinet meetings etc. But he is played by Keanu Reeves, who looks all wrong, whose accent is all over the place, and who phones in the performance. The other is a bizarre "what if" action movie that shows us an alternative history where Sir Winston, as well as being Prime Minister, was a James Bond style superspy. For all that, the part is played by Timothy Spall, who captures the appearance, voice and mannerisms of the great man perfectly.

On that basis, I would say that Winston II "feels" more like the real deal, even if the script is mad.

Anyway, just a view. Lobster is clearly correct to say that so much is subjective.

 

[shauner111]

LOL but to compare Anne Hathaway as an actress as well as her performance to Keanu Reeves..that's not cool haha. The majority of people who walked out of Rises were saying Anne was one of the highlights. I thought she was very charismatic but more subtle than Michelle's performance for a reason.

Are you saying she phoned in her performance? That's ridiculous. Voice and mannerisms perfectly? How does one know what Catwomans voice and mannerisms are like?? We dont. Just like Batmans voice and the variations. You either like it or you dont, but his voice should be lowered. But between Keatons whisper and Bales growl, none are "wrong".

 

[regwec]

Yes, but I am talking about my perceptions of the character. We all "know" something about the way we personally imagine these characters to be. And, for me, Michelle's steaming-hot sensuality comes much closer than Hathaway's comparatively tepid performance.

But, each to their own. Neither were definitive to me (though I love Pfieffer's Catwoman as a pop culture icon of her own), and I look forward to seeing a new interpretation soon.

 

[Pfeiffer-Pfan]

There was a lot of talk about how Hathaway used Hedy Lamarr as inspiration for the role, and the truth is I really did get some of that 1940s femme fatale vibe in the performance. She did something very subtle in her voice, it was a very breathy tone and not how she usually talks. It felt timeless to me, she actually disappeared and made me forget that it was Anne Hathaway.

Now this, I definitely have to disagree with. There was nothing special or ''breathy'' about Anne's voice...

In fact, her voice sounded very similar, minus the accent, to the voice she used for her character in Brokeback Mountain.

If anything, Michelle's voice was more distinctly different as Catwoman than Anne's ever was. THIS is how you do sexy and breathy... Compare Michelle's regular voice to her Catwoman:

[YT]OFd9nLGlXMY[/YT]

@1:00

[YT]y2T7R8WXz0A[/YT]

Sorry, but that element of praise for Anne never made sense to me. All she did was lower her voice. For me, There was nothing unique about it.

 

[shauner111]

It was a bit breathy, both of them lowered their voice. Both were sexy. I just personally felt that Anne's was sexier because she didnt over-act like Michelle did in some scenes. Acting like a horny tramp doesnt always equal sexy.

 

[BatLobster]

Sorry PP, but I can only continue the circle of disagreement we've worked ourselves into.

The quality in Anne's voice that I'm referring to came through moreso in some scenes than others. One example I'd point to is her line to Blake, "Don't tell me...still in love?" in reference to the Senator. To me that doesn't sound anything like Anne Hathaway. She sounds very old-time Hollywood there. It's moments like that where I really hear the Hedy Lamarr influence. It's peppered in, but it doesn't dominate the entire performance. And I love that some of her most "Catwoman-esque" moments in the film were outside the costume. The lack of separation there is what I really gravitated to. In fact that whole scene with Blake is pretty much brilliant, possibly my favorite Selina scene in the film. And it's all the subtle, little things. The way she's trying to be her defiant, sassy self, but you can tell that she's not completely buying it herself anymore ("A girl's gotta eat..."). Putting up her defenses while her vulnerability is starting to crack through. I'm sorry, but nobody can convince me that it wasn't a layered performance. It wasn't as loud as Pfieffer's, but there was substance there.

It's one thing to not particularly care for her/Nolan's stripped-down interpretation, but I get the impression that some people feel like she was a plank of cardboard in the movie and that really makes no sense to me. Want to see a flat, wooden performance? Try Natalie Portman in Thor: The Dark World.

 

[shauner111]

Being loud and more sexual doesn't automatically equal a better performance. That's all that Michelle had going for her. It was her being horny and giving a very loud performance like Jack's Joker. Everything else falls flat when it comes to substance.

Ill take substance over style. Just like ill take Ledger over Nicholson for Joker. Both are loud performances, but one is just a clown, the other adds more substance to that "clown" and gets the actual character right.

 

[BatLobster]

I might also add that I think Anne had a very difficult line to walk. She had to be theatrical without seeming overly hammy and corny. She had to deliver a slew of one-liners and be the more "fun" part of the movie without crossing into the wrong side of camp. And she had to do all of that while defining who this character is on a deeper level in a non-origin film, with limited screen time. It's easy to forget how many fans actually didn't even want Catwoman in any Nolan film, because they feared that line would be crossed. So for a lot of those same people to then turn around and praise her performance FOR being fun and bringing levity to the film, I think that was a major accomplishment.

 

[regwec]

Shauner, you are being a bit obtuse in refusing to accept there is any subjectivity at work here; what's more, throwing around terms like "horny tramp" is not particularly edifying.

Like what you like; I think any substance in TDKR's Selina was in the writing, and I preferred Pfieffer's more hot-blooded performance.

 

[shauner111]

I know but it's how i see her. I see a loud, sexual character that is very fun. But i dont see the character of Selina within a 20 mile radius. I dont see anything other than a loud performance either. Not liking Anne's performance in comparison, is perfectly reasonable. But to compare her to Keanu Reeves or to say that she "phoned it in" is ridiculous to me. What is not subjective however, is who is playing Selina Kyle and who is playing a different character who just happens to be named Selina Kyle.

We like what we like, that's fine. I like Pfeiffers take and i dont at the same time.

Ill also add that on a personal level, nowadays i get extremely irritated with Michelle's "Catwoman voice". There is a distinction between her Selina voice and persona. I find her voice/mannerisms to be overdone. I cant pinpoint what it is, but i just find her voice annoying during her Catwoman scenes. As Selina it's fine.

 

[shauner111]

I might also add that I think Anne had a very difficult line to walk. She had to be theatrical without seeming overly hammy and corny. She had to deliver a slew of one-liners and be the more "fun" part of the movie without crossing into the wrong side of camp. And she had to do all of that while defining who this character is on a deeper level in a non-origin film, with limited screen time. It's easy to forget how many fans actually didn't even want Catwoman in any Nolan film, because they feared that line would be crossed. So for a lot of those same people to then turn around and praise her performance FOR being fun and bringing levity to the film, I think that was a major accomplishment.

 

[Pfeiffer-Pfan]

It was a bit breathy, both of them lowered their voice. Both were sexy. I just personally felt that Anne's was sexier because she didnt over-act like Michelle did in some scenes. Acting like a horny tramp doesnt always equal sexy.

Hmmm... show me a scene where Michelle over-acted?

If anything, she was much more subtle than Anne ever was. Anne came across as whiny in a number of scenes and layered on her supposed ''sensuality'' too thick. She wanted to be sexy but never quite reached it.

Every movement Anne gave, I could almost see the thoughts in her head saying, ''Ok, be slow and breathy here. You're a Femme Fatale. It's going to be so cool''.

Like I said, the performance was was just too forced on Anne's part in the final analysis. She was playing Nolan's ''Catwoman'' and opposed to being Nolan's ''Catwoman''.

 

[regwec]

But to compare her to Keanu Reeves or to say that she "phoned it in" is ridiculous to me.

Those were comments made in a loose analogy, and not directly descriptive. I'm sure Hathaway did her best: it just left me unmoved.

 

[shauner111]

Hmmm... show me a scene where Michelle over-acted?

If anything, she was much more subtle than Anne ever was. Anne came across as whiny in a number of scenes and layered on her supposed ''sensuality'' too thick. She wanted to be sexy but I never quite reached it.

Every movement Anne gave, I could almost see the thoughts in her head saying, ''Ok, be slow and breathy here. You're a Femme Fatale. It's going to be so cool''.

Like I said, the performance was was just too forced on Anne's part in the final analysis. She was playing Nolan's ''Catwoman'' and opposed to being Nolan's ''Catwoman''.

Most of her scenes, mainly the way she speaks.

She was the opposite of subtle. I never saw Anne as whiny. Only in her intro as the maid, but that's her trying to throw off Bruce until she reveals her true self. Her voice lowers and she admits that she stole the pearls. It's like going from normal Hathaway that the audience expects right into Selina.

We'll have to agree to disagree on that because i just dont see it.

 

[shauner111]

Those were comments made in a loose analogy, and not directly descriptive. I'm sure Hathaway did her best: it just left me unmoved.

Fair enough.

 

[BatLobster]

Being that I wasn't privy to Anne's inner thought process during her takes, I must concede.

 

[Pfeiffer-Pfan]

Being that I wasn't privy to Anne's inner thought process during her takes, I must concede.

It's a gift, I must admit.

Look, I like Anne, I always have. I don't even think she was miscast as Selina, but (IMO) she and Nolan made some serious mis-calculations along the way.

I was never looking for a whip or a bunch of cats or any of that... I just wanted to see a toothier and more powerful Selina up on the screen. Sadly, the Bros. Nolan gave thier ''character'' no bite and nothing for Anne to really chew on.

I did enjoy the ballroom scene and certain moments but thats about it. Perhaps with a different director, Anne could have been phenomenal. Who knows?

So for me, Michelle is still the best on-screen Catwoman followed very closely by Julie Newmar.

 

[SHADOWBAT69]

Pfeiffer played a true Catwoman. Hathaway played a thief.

 

[relentless1]

i think batman killing in this and batman 1989 was perfect because it encapsulated the dark nature of the character pre robin in the comics, i dare say that tim burton himself was gearing up to have batman realize the error of his ways into the third movie. this can be seen in the climax for batman returns when batman stops catwoman from killing max shreck. they even touch on this same subject in batman forever and even though they don't capitalize on it the theme is there through returns and forever and its catwoman and robin that are the ciphers for his transformation from a killer in batman 1989 to being a hero at the end of batman forever.

 

[shauner111]

Pfeiffer played a true Catwoman. Hathaway played a thief.

.....And Catwoman is a thief, that's the main aspect of her character.....so i guess Hathaway played a true Catwoman.

 

[shauner111]

i think batman killing in this and batman 1989 was perfect because it encapsulated the dark nature of the character pre robin in the comics, i dare say that tim burton himself was gearing up to have batman realize the error of his ways into the third movie. this can be seen in the climax for batman returns when batman stops catwoman from killing max shreck. they even touch on this same subject in batman forever and even though they don't capitalize on it the theme is there through returns and forever and its catwoman and robin that are the ciphers for his transformation from a killer in batman 1989 to being a hero at the end of batman forever.

I dont like Batman killing but for Burton's it works because i feel it was as if he snapped. Burton changed the origin to Joker killing his folks, so now as an adult, already Batman, he's finds out the truth and something goes off in his head. That's how i see it. He then goes on a pursuit to kill Joker. He kills people around him until he gets to the Joker, who he murders in order to save his own skin and Vale's. Throughout Returns he's just that same Batman, who is barely heroic even though he'll save people in need. He'll save the innocent, so that part of him is still there. But he'll kill anyone who gets in his way with pleasure.

My batman doesn't do this. But i admit, it works well for those movies. I dont want to see it repeated though. Returns shows that version in all its glory.

 

[Marx]

I still prefer Pfeiffer's Catwoman. Anne just didn't do it for me. She did well for what she was given but that's about it.

 

[Macphisto]

Pfeiffer gave one of the great female performances of the '90s - up there with Emmanuelle Beart (Un Couer en Hiver), Juliette Binoche (Blue) and Emily Watson (Breaking the Waves). So damaged and fragile, yet charismatic, playful and kind of heroic in her own twisted way. There was so much going on, so many layers to her performance. But most of all, she was fun to watch. She was extraordinary. And the chemistry between Pfeiffer and Keaton was just electric. The exchange of haunted glances…it’s like they’re from the silent era.

What a strange film Returns really is. It‘s dark and mean-spirited, yet at the same time ridiculously campy and operatic. And it’s filled with real depth of character that goes way beyond the loud costumes. It’s certainly one of a kind.

 

[BatLobster]

It's a gift, I must admit.

Look, I like Anne, I always have. I don't even think she was miscast as Selina, but (IMO) she and Nolan made some serious mis-calculations along the way.

I was never looking for a whip or a bunch of cats or any of that... I just wanted to see a toothier and more powerful Selina up on the screen. Sadly, the Bros. Nolan gave thier ''character'' no bite and nothing for Anne to really chew on.

I did enjoy the ballroom scene and certain moments but thats about it. Perhaps with a different director, Anne could have been phenomenal. Who knows?

So for me, Michelle is still the best on-screen Catwoman followed very closely by Julie Newmar.

Hey, I respect your opinion of course. It's not like I think it's outrageous for anyone to prefer Pfeiffer. She was brilliant, you'll get no debate from me. It's a purrfectly reasonable opinion to have.

I think at the end of the day, Pfeiffer's version was a bad girl who was shaking off the remnants of her good self and Anne's version was more of a good girl who was shaking off the remnants of her inner bad self. The thief with a heart of gold as it were. And I thought Anne played that to purrfection.