The Avengers The Official 'Hulk in Avengers' thread. - Part 7

[The Morningstar]

You say without PIS the comic book universe would be boring. How and Why?

There is literally an infinite universe as their canvass, with an infinite number of possible stories to tell

They don't need to write stupid stories and comic book fans don't need to accept stupid stories just because they exist

If there was no PIS, you know those awesome Hulk vs Thor fights? Thor would just dump Hulk into a different time stream or dimension after one panel.

Death of Superman? Superman would speed blitz Doomsday into paste before he even realised he was being attacked.

Frank Miller's Dark Knight Returns? Superman would turn Bruce Wayne into mulch before he could process a thought, super armour, kryptonite... whatever. Bruce Wayne dies in every conceivable fight he and Supes would have.

Sometimes it annoys me, because PIS is used to keep a more popular character on top. I've had recent debates with people who think Thor could defeat Silver Surfer or Gladiator. Well, with PIS off, if Surfer and Gladiator were as popular as Thor, it wouldn't work that way. But hey, you gotta take the rough with the smooth.

PIS isn't limited to comics, it's in all forms of media. You know when the hero in an action film doesn't get shot? Or gets shot but still keeps going? That's PIS.

It basically requires the reader/viewer to suspend their disbelief for the sake of the story. Like i said, if there was no PIS then most stories in films, comics, books would just be boring and over and done with in more straight forward, less interesting fashion.

Have a look on TVtropes for some insight into how fictional stories work, you can't use real world logic with them.

 

[Vulklin]

If there was no PIS, you know those awesome Hulk vs Thor fights? Thor would just dump Hulk into a different time stream or dimension after one panel.

Death of Superman? Superman would speed blitz Doomsday into paste before he even realised he was being attacked.

Frank Miller's Dark Knight Returns? Superman would turn Bruce Wayne into mulch before he could process a thought, super armour, kryptonite... whatever. Bruce Wayne dies in every conceivable fight he and Supes would have.

Sometimes it annoys me, because PIS is used to keep a more popular character on top. I've had recent debates with people who think Thor could defeat Silver Surfer or Gladiator. Well, with PIS off, if Surfer and Gladiator were as popular as Thor, it wouldn't work that way. But hey, you gotta take the rough with the smooth.

PIS isn't limited to comics, it's in all forms of media. You know when the hero in an action film doesn't get shot? Or gets shot but still keeps going? That's PIS.

It basically requires the reader/viewer to suspend their disbelief for the sake of the story. Like i said, if there was no PIS then most stories in films, comics, books would just be boring and over and done with in more straight forward, less interesting fashion.

Have a look on TVtropes for some insight into how fictional stories work, you can't use real world logic with them.

It depends on how powerful Thor and Hulk were and what place each of them were in the hierarchy.

If they were at the same level, then the fights would not be over in a split second and not be boring

If Thor was 1 tier above Hulk, or Hulk 1 tier above Thor, then whichever was highest tier would win most fights, but the difference between them would not be huge, so still it would be interesting, especially as there is an infinite number of other character to throw into the mix

If Thor was 10 tiers above Hulk, or Hulk 10 tiers above Thor, then yes, everytime they had a fight it would be over in seconds and completely dull I agree


The most important thing though would be that, once they have decided which tier Hulk is at and which tier Thor is at, they stick to that hierarchy and it is never retconned or changed and so the entire hierarchy has a level of structure to it

 

[The Morningstar]

It wouldn't matter what tier they are. Hulk could be billions of times stronger than Thor. Thor still has Mjolnir which allows him to dimension/time dump people. No PIS, Thor would send Hulk somewhere else before Hulk could do anything about it. But that would be boring and thusly, there wouldn't be hotly contested debates between fans, which would lead to a lack of interest, which would lead to less $$$.

 

[Gamma Burst]

Many of the things you mentioned here don't work that way, Morningstar.

First: if Thor's only way to 'win' against the Hulk was to BFR him, then he wouldn't be much of a warrior. Worse, it would be implied he can fight the Hulk pound for pound. Also, Thor can't transport him through time. Mjolnir can't do this anymore. No Hulk to mention it would be necessary for the Hulk to just stand there and let Thor transport him elsewhere.

Second: Supes can't speeblitz doomsday, because DD also have superspeed.

Third: Thor has bested SS several times. I love how you choose SS high showings, but forget he was originally a character who was knocked out by spider-man, and who couldn't match the Thing's brute strength. A character like that has no business fighting Thor (who was created to be Marvel's most powerful hero).

 

[The Morningstar]

Silver Surfer being knocked out by Spider-Man or Thing is laughable. That is just the perfect example of PIS. This is a guy who blows planets up with a flick of his wrist and can turn on a dime whilst travelling thousands of times faster than light.

There is plenty of characters more powerful than Thor, going by actual feats and not heresay.

 

[Gamma Burst]

Silver Surfer being knocked out by Spider-Man or Thing is laughable. This is a guy who blows planets up with a flick of his wrist and can turn on a dime whilst travelling thousands of times faster than light.

There is plenty of characters more powerful than Thor, going by actual feats and not heresay.

Look, you clearly haven't read many comics. Silver Surfer has been knocked by spider-man and couldn't match Thing's strength the original stories written by Stan Lee himself, the same guy who created Thor to be more powerful.
Also, the same ''guy'' has written Hulk and Thor as equals. I can provide evidence, with issue's numbers and scans, if necessary. Hardly 'hearsay'', as you said. Funny, how you don't counter my arguments.

 

[Vulklin]

This is my point exactly.

You are both debating over who can do this, who has that power, who would win, that cannot do that anymore because it has been retconned etc

This is what I dislike about it all, people have these endless debates over on another forum (x vs x WHO WINS?)
and at times it is like watching Rain Man talking to himself in the mirror day after day

The reason is because there is no established hierarchy and no continuity of any kind in comic book universe

I am just saying that me personally would prefer to have a hierarchy and consistency, that is why i would be the Beyonder and reboot EVERYTHING

 

[The Morningstar]

I've read plenty of comics. And Spider-Man or Thing defeating Silver Surfer comes down to PIS. It's as simple as that. Surfer has more showings that put him waaaaaaaay above those characters.

And look at it like this, why the hell would a being of Galactus' magnitude have Surfer as his no1 Herald if he could be knocked out by a couple of street levellers like Spidey and Ben Grimm? I don't care if Stan Lee originally wrote them that way. The characters have long since evolved and been characterised better when not under his pen. He gets credit for creating these characters, not being the best writer.

Surfer has countless feats of blowing planets up, speed blitzing at FTL, having telepathy that rivals Professor X etc. Provide examples of Thor doing stuff like that and i'll concede.

 

[Gamma Burst]

I've read plenty of comics. And Spider-Man or Thing defeating Silver Surfer comes down to PIS. It's as simple as that. Surfer has more showings that put him waaaaaaaay above those characters.

And look at it like this, why the hell would a being of Galactus' magnitude have Surfer as his no1 Herald if he could be knocked out by a couple of street levellers like Spidey and Ben Grimm?

Surfer has countless feats of blowing planets up, speed blitzing at FTL. Provide examples of Thor doing stuff like that and i'll concede.

You're not adressing anything I've posted so far. The creator of these characters wrote these stories, so basically you're saying Stan Lee''s stories are PIS. Th'ts laughable at best. Everything that doesnt match your views on the characters is PIS. So, that's no point in arguing.

 

[Roose Bolton]

Basically Silver Surfer when written accurate with his powers is on the level of Doctor Manhattan isn't he? It's been years since I've read anything with ol' Noran Raad.

 

[BigThor]

Why would Thor blow up a planet? Last time I checked he was a "good guy", I'm pretty sure it's common knowledge that he has the ability to blow up planets.

He dragged the Midgard Serpent itself which weighs more than Earth, not to mention damaging Celestials which puts him on planet buster level.

 

[The Morningstar]

You're not adressing anything I've posted so far. The creator of these characters wrote these stories, so basically you're saying Stan Lee''s stories are PIS. Th'ts laughable at best. Everything that doesnt match your views on the characters is PIS. So, that's no point in arguing.

I have addressed the issue with Stan Lee. He created them... so what? That was 60 years ago. The characters have evolved and been characterised much better than what he did. Stan Lee had a great imagination, he co created these characters and deserves a lot of credit. But he is certainly not the best writer of those characters. That notion is laughable.

I mean seriously, Spider-Man knocking out the Silver ****ing Surfer? Are you kidding me? Just stop and think about how stupid that is.

Characters go through changes, some for the worst, some for the better. Surfer being changed from someone who can be knocked out by Spidey to a cosmic heavy weight who destroys planets and travels FTL is a much better potrayal, no doubt about it.

 

[The Morningstar]

Basically Silver Surfer when written accurate with his powers is on the level of Doctor Manhattan isn't he? It's been years since I've read anything with ol' Noran Raad.

Pretty much. He can manipulate molecules/energy on that level. Has Prof X level telepathy. Can go intangible. Can open black holes at will. Can survive super novas. He's a cosmic heavy weight and i don't care if Stan Lee wrote it, Surfer being knocked out by Spider-Man is beyond stupid.

Why would Thor blow up a planet? Last time I checked he was a "good guy", I'm pretty sure it's common knowledge that he has the ability to blow up planets.

He dragged the Midgard Serpent which weighs more than earth itself, not to mention damaging Celestials which puts him on planet buster level.

True, the Celestial head cracking feat puts him at planet busting levels i'd imagine. He and Surfer are even in strength i'd say. But Surfer is much faster and his powers are a little more varied.

 

[Gamma Burst]

A better portrayal, I don't know. The character can't even sustain an ongoing.

 

[Gamma Burst]

Pretty much. He can manipulate molecules/energy on that level. Has Prof X level telepathy. Can go intangible. Can open black holes at will. Can survive super novas. He's a cosmic heavy weight and i don't care if Stan Lee wrote it, Surfer being knocked out by Spider-Man is beyond stupid.



True, the Celestial head cracking feat puts him at planet busting levels i'd imagine. He and Surfer are even in strength i'd say. But Surfer is much faster and his powers are a little more varied.

Nah, surfer even admited Mjolnir alone was more powerful than himslf.
But that might be PIS, according to your views.

 

[The Morningstar]

A better portrayal, I don't know. The character can't even sustain an ongoing.

Barely anyone outside of the A-listers can these days. I think Deadpool is pretty much the only character outside your big names who has supported a long running solo book in recent years.

Surfer had a good run back in the day though. And a cool tv series.

 

[Brian Braddock]

Morningstar has a point, in that the characters have evolved past the parameters set by Lee just as, say,Superman has evovled past the parameters set by Seigel and Shuster. I dont see anyone having a problem with the fact that Superman flies as opposed to leaping etc.

Many writers have written stories for those characters over the years - just because 'the creator' didnt write them doesnt make them [and any increased or new abililites given to those characters in them] null and void.

 

[BigThor]

True, the Celestial head cracking feat puts him at planet busting levels i'd imagine. He and Surfer are even in strength i'd say. But Surfer is much faster and his powers are a little more varied.

I agree that Surfer is much faster, but Thor has him beat in the strength department and Thor's powers are probably just as varied.

Morningstar has a point, in that the characters have evolved past the parameters set by Lee just as, say,Superman has evovled past the parameters set by Seigel and Shuster. I dont see anyone having a problem with the fact that Superman flies as opposed to leaping etc.

Many writers have written stories for those characters over the years - just because 'the creator' didnt write them doesnt make them [and any increased or new abililites given to those characters in them] null and void.

True

 

[The Morningstar]

Nah, surfer even admited Mjolnir alone was more powerful than himslf.
But that might be PIS, according to your views.

The power in Mjolnir is probably more powerful than the power cosmic Surfer has. But still, Surfer is faster than Thor and has telepathy.

 

[Vulklin]

A read a story once where Odin met some Celestials, unleashed all his powers on ONE of them and the Celestial did not even flinch

In another story, Thor took on a Celestial and faired much better?

But Odin is more powerful than Thor, MUCH more powerful at that, people tell me?

This is the inconsistency where none of it makes sense whatsoever, I have no idea where I am or what day of the week it is

 

[BigThor]

A read a story once where Odin met some Celestials, unleashed all his powers on ONE of them and the Celestial did not even flinch

In another story, Thor took on a Celestial and faired much better?

But Odin is more powerful than Thor, MUCH more powerful at that, people tell me?

This is the inconsistency where none of it makes sense whatsoever, I have no idea where I am or what day of the week it is

Actually he harmed one of those Celestials pretty badly they just regenerated and he was facing all of them at once so that's not really fair.

 

[The Morningstar]

A read a story once where Odin met some Celestials, unleashed all his powers on ONE of them and the Celestial did not even flinch

In another story, Thor took on a Celestial and faired much better?

But Odin is more powerful than Thor, MUCH more powerful at that, people tell me?

This is the inconsistency where none of it makes sense whatsoever, I have no idea where I am or what day of the week it is

Well IIRC the time Thor cracked a Celestials head open he was a bit amped up.

That's the thing with long term continuity comics, they will always be some inconsistencies. You just gotta go with the flow, as long as it isn't too stupid. Like the idea of Spider-Man knocking out the Silver Surfer or Squirrell Girl defeating Thanos

 

[The Morningstar]

Morningstar has a point, in that the characters have evolved past the parameters set by Lee just as, say,Superman has evovled past the parameters set by Seigel and Shuster. I dont see anyone having a problem with the fact that Superman flies as opposed to leaping etc.

Many writers have written stories for those characters over the years - just because 'the creator' didnt write them doesnt make them [and any increased or new abililites given to those characters in them] null and void.

Great point with Superman. The characters have evolved since their beginnings, if they hadn't, comics would be a lot more boring imo.

Whilst there should be a sense of continuity, writers shouldn't have their imaginations and ideas blocked just because of some story 60 years ago. That would just make everything so stagnant.

And honestly, if you think about it, a being like Silver Surfer, a Herald to a being such as Galactus, not being stronger than Spider-Man or Ben Grimm? It's just really, really dumb.

 

[Gamma Burst]

Man, this thread really went off the tracks.

 

[BigThor]

Well IIRC the time Thor cracked a Celestials head open he was a bit amped up.

That's the thing with long term continuity comics, they will always be some inconsistencies. You just gotta go with the flow, as long as it isn't too stupid. Like the idea of Spider-Man knocking out the Silver Surfer or Squirrell Girl defeating Thanos

Plus Thor's damaged a Celestial on two different occasions, so that pretty much means it's within his power.

Oh and I agree that Black Panther or Spidey KO'ing Surfer & Fire Lord is beyond stupid.