Tacit Ronin
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And because my real father is a f****** tiger.
The Official "I Loved Raimi's Spider-Man' Thread - Part 1 of 99 Luft - - - Part 12
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The Joker
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Yeah, the three movies never lost sight of Uncle Ben's influence on Peter. He was always a relevant element in each one. Even if 3's story regarding Sandman killing him wasn't very good.
ItchyWebShooter
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ItchyWebShooter
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I can just hear Elfman's score swelling right there. These movies were SO GOOD!!!
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For anyone interested, I posted a review of the Editor's Cut! Here is my review (it has spoilers)
For many years, an alternate cut of Spider-Man 3 has been talked about, mostly by fans. Sony released an extended cut of Spider-Man 2, titled Spider-Man 2.1, and with all the deleted footage known to exist for Spider-Man 3, an extended Spider-Man 3.1 seemed to be something logical to do. Spider-Man 3 upon its release was divisive, and still is to this day. Just the mere mention of Spider-Man 3 amongst comic book fans instantly can start a conversation, and its bad reputation even brought about criticism of the previously praised and beloved Spider-Man and Spider-Man 2. Fans of the Raimi series have often wondered if that extra footage we know to exist could maybe make some sense out of certain shortcomings of the film, and maybe start changing the film's reputation. But with each passing year and the cancellation of Raimi's Spider-Man 4, it seemed like Spider-Man 3.1 was not going to materialize and we would all be left to wonder. But, the 10 year anniversary of the infamous film has made that dream a reality!
Well, sort of. We still do not have a Spider-Man 3.1 extended cut like we had all speculated, but an alternate cut is finally available online and in the new limited edition Blu Ray set of the Raimi Spider-Man films. The alternate cut, officially titled Spider-Man 3: Editor's Cut, was done by the film's original editor Bob Marawski. While a fair amount of deleted material from Spider-Man 3 is included in this new cut of the film, the new cut also cuts out several scenes from the original cut, restores Christoper Young's original score, and actually clocks in 2 minutes shorter than the theatrical cut. Interviews about the new cut show that Maraksi felt that the film played better shorter as opposed to longer, which is fair considering the film was already almost 2 hours and 2 minutes upon release.
All that backstory out of the way, let's focus on what is different about this cut. The film is mostly the same from opening and up until Peter attempts to kill Sandman. The only notable difference in that segment of the film is you can notice is Young's score in a few scenes, which can be noticed when Harry is shown at the play, with Peter and MJ in the park, and in a few other spots. Honestly, the restored music in these sections doesn't make a noticeable difference. The differences become far more stark after that. When MJ goes to meet Harry, a shot of Peter staring at the box housing his new costume just before the much maligned Twist dance in the kitchen, but while minor, that edit does highlight the distance that has come between Peter and MJ in the film and just where literally they're in two different mind sets in the relationship. Though small addition, I do like it.
One major difference is how the film plays out once MJ breaks up with Peter through the infamous montage. In the theatrical, Peter then talks to Harry at the diner, they fights, then he ruins Brock and then silly montage! In this one, It is flipped. Peter goes back to the apartment, stares at the black suit, then he ruins Brock. After ruining Brock, Peter talks to Harry, and we see an alternate talk between Peter and Harry prior to the fight. In the original version, Peter still believes MJ and Harry are an item, where as in this one Peter has figured out Harry was acting and probably put her up to it. Right after Peter attempts to kill Harry, the very next cut is silly montage and Peter strutting. This edit gave me whiplash. We go right from serious moment of Peter possibly killing his best friend to dancing in the street whackiness. It is a tone juggle that does not work. I like the added shot of Peter looking at the symbiote, as it adds to the Peter is a junkie angle, and the new footage of the wonderful black suit Spidey is nice, but the events play out slightly more logically in this particular section in the theatrical.
The next portion of the film also plays out quite different, also. The new version cuts out the Aunt May talk about forgiveness with Peter and replaces it with the scene where Penny is in the park, and Sandman comes to see her as a sand castle. This substitution makes a significant difference and I think for the better. Aunt May earlier in the film gave a speech about forgiveness, and though Peter was not at his low point like he is after the jazz club scene, it hits a lot of the same points she does in the speech later. I also favor this because films often have a tendency to over explain and force characters to say their feelings because they are not sure the audience will get it through the story and visuals. Peter's inward reflection on the monster he became and how he needs to forgive himself did not need Aunt May giving that speech to show us he is starting that inward reflection. Him cleansing himself in the shower just after getting rid of the symbiote symbolically sends the same message so much more simply than Aunt May explaining to us every little piece of the film's theme. Also, one of the biggest problems the theatrical cut had was Sandman after a few scenes just seemed to lack motivation. Why does he go from bad guy needing money to wanting to kill Spider-Man outside the fact Spider-Man attacked him? Why would this guy who has shown to be gentle willingly assault cops who had nothing to do with that sequence? This scene gives him much needed character motivation not just to show he loves his daughter, but it also explains this. At the end of this scene, he proclaims Spider-Man won't stop him again. This shows an element of desperation that was not as well conveyed, and it also explains that Sandman was actively looking for Spider-Man after thought, which makes when he finds Venom later seem way less forced. Granted, how Venom knew about his daughter is still not explained in either cut, but it makes that team-up scene between the two go from utter crap to making some sense. I love Aunt May and the forgiveness speech itself is good, but the sandcastle scene offered way more.
Probably the biggest improvement of the film however comes just before the climax, and that comes in the scene with Peter and Harry. Peter and Harry's conversation itself is the same, but after Peter leaves, we are no longer subjected to CSI: Butler! No longer do we need to here about how Bernard learned how to tell if a wound was self-inflicted from his days in BUTLER school! No longer is it revealed that anytime in those years when he saw Harry driving himself insane with the Spider-Man obsession that he could have done something to help his mental health, but instead allowed Harry to descend into madness! Instead, Harry looks down at the counter and see a nearby photograph of himself with Peter and MJ, a photograph fractured like their friendship. The symbolic imagery here is wonderful, it says a lot without saying a word, and it allows the inevitable decision Harry makes to help Peter be HIS choice! See, when your Butler tells you your dad was a murderous psychopath and Peter did nothing wrong, you no longer need to find it in your heart to forgive your friend. Harry coming to help because Peter did nothing wrong to Norman is not a message of FORGIVENESS. Now, Harry realizing Peter is his best friend and needs his help, even if he doesn't deserve it, shows Peter FORGIVES him, making that scene when he dies have so much more punch and much more genuine. Bernard basically ruined Harry's entire arc in the film, and the biggest thing this cut gets right is righting that wrong.
While clearly Spider-Man 3 has problems, I always felt the good elements of the film outweighed the bad. For me, it was never a bad movie. It was always just a good movie that was inferior to much better movies in the same franchise and had some fatal flaws. Does the Editor's Cut fix the movie? Certain elements of it, yes it does. While it fixes the fatal flaw of the crappy Butler, certain elements of the movie that divides the fans will always be present. Sandman will have always killed Uncle Ben, Topher Grace will always be Venom, etc. This cut also has elements not as strong as the theatrical one, such as that odd placement of the montage people already hated, but even with that being out of left field and weird, the additions made to Sandman and Harry make it a superior film overall and I think it is worth checking out. It is probably not the Spider-Man 3.1 people wanted, but I am glad this version exists.
Well, sort of. We still do not have a Spider-Man 3.1 extended cut like we had all speculated, but an alternate cut is finally available online and in the new limited edition Blu Ray set of the Raimi Spider-Man films. The alternate cut, officially titled Spider-Man 3: Editor's Cut, was done by the film's original editor Bob Marawski. While a fair amount of deleted material from Spider-Man 3 is included in this new cut of the film, the new cut also cuts out several scenes from the original cut, restores Christoper Young's original score, and actually clocks in 2 minutes shorter than the theatrical cut. Interviews about the new cut show that Maraksi felt that the film played better shorter as opposed to longer, which is fair considering the film was already almost 2 hours and 2 minutes upon release.
All that backstory out of the way, let's focus on what is different about this cut. The film is mostly the same from opening and up until Peter attempts to kill Sandman. The only notable difference in that segment of the film is you can notice is Young's score in a few scenes, which can be noticed when Harry is shown at the play, with Peter and MJ in the park, and in a few other spots. Honestly, the restored music in these sections doesn't make a noticeable difference. The differences become far more stark after that. When MJ goes to meet Harry, a shot of Peter staring at the box housing his new costume just before the much maligned Twist dance in the kitchen, but while minor, that edit does highlight the distance that has come between Peter and MJ in the film and just where literally they're in two different mind sets in the relationship. Though small addition, I do like it.
One major difference is how the film plays out once MJ breaks up with Peter through the infamous montage. In the theatrical, Peter then talks to Harry at the diner, they fights, then he ruins Brock and then silly montage! In this one, It is flipped. Peter goes back to the apartment, stares at the black suit, then he ruins Brock. After ruining Brock, Peter talks to Harry, and we see an alternate talk between Peter and Harry prior to the fight. In the original version, Peter still believes MJ and Harry are an item, where as in this one Peter has figured out Harry was acting and probably put her up to it. Right after Peter attempts to kill Harry, the very next cut is silly montage and Peter strutting. This edit gave me whiplash. We go right from serious moment of Peter possibly killing his best friend to dancing in the street whackiness. It is a tone juggle that does not work. I like the added shot of Peter looking at the symbiote, as it adds to the Peter is a junkie angle, and the new footage of the wonderful black suit Spidey is nice, but the events play out slightly more logically in this particular section in the theatrical.
The next portion of the film also plays out quite different, also. The new version cuts out the Aunt May talk about forgiveness with Peter and replaces it with the scene where Penny is in the park, and Sandman comes to see her as a sand castle. This substitution makes a significant difference and I think for the better. Aunt May earlier in the film gave a speech about forgiveness, and though Peter was not at his low point like he is after the jazz club scene, it hits a lot of the same points she does in the speech later. I also favor this because films often have a tendency to over explain and force characters to say their feelings because they are not sure the audience will get it through the story and visuals. Peter's inward reflection on the monster he became and how he needs to forgive himself did not need Aunt May giving that speech to show us he is starting that inward reflection. Him cleansing himself in the shower just after getting rid of the symbiote symbolically sends the same message so much more simply than Aunt May explaining to us every little piece of the film's theme. Also, one of the biggest problems the theatrical cut had was Sandman after a few scenes just seemed to lack motivation. Why does he go from bad guy needing money to wanting to kill Spider-Man outside the fact Spider-Man attacked him? Why would this guy who has shown to be gentle willingly assault cops who had nothing to do with that sequence? This scene gives him much needed character motivation not just to show he loves his daughter, but it also explains this. At the end of this scene, he proclaims Spider-Man won't stop him again. This shows an element of desperation that was not as well conveyed, and it also explains that Sandman was actively looking for Spider-Man after thought, which makes when he finds Venom later seem way less forced. Granted, how Venom knew about his daughter is still not explained in either cut, but it makes that team-up scene between the two go from utter crap to making some sense. I love Aunt May and the forgiveness speech itself is good, but the sandcastle scene offered way more.
Probably the biggest improvement of the film however comes just before the climax, and that comes in the scene with Peter and Harry. Peter and Harry's conversation itself is the same, but after Peter leaves, we are no longer subjected to CSI: Butler! No longer do we need to here about how Bernard learned how to tell if a wound was self-inflicted from his days in BUTLER school! No longer is it revealed that anytime in those years when he saw Harry driving himself insane with the Spider-Man obsession that he could have done something to help his mental health, but instead allowed Harry to descend into madness! Instead, Harry looks down at the counter and see a nearby photograph of himself with Peter and MJ, a photograph fractured like their friendship. The symbolic imagery here is wonderful, it says a lot without saying a word, and it allows the inevitable decision Harry makes to help Peter be HIS choice! See, when your Butler tells you your dad was a murderous psychopath and Peter did nothing wrong, you no longer need to find it in your heart to forgive your friend. Harry coming to help because Peter did nothing wrong to Norman is not a message of FORGIVENESS. Now, Harry realizing Peter is his best friend and needs his help, even if he doesn't deserve it, shows Peter FORGIVES him, making that scene when he dies have so much more punch and much more genuine. Bernard basically ruined Harry's entire arc in the film, and the biggest thing this cut gets right is righting that wrong.
While clearly Spider-Man 3 has problems, I always felt the good elements of the film outweighed the bad. For me, it was never a bad movie. It was always just a good movie that was inferior to much better movies in the same franchise and had some fatal flaws. Does the Editor's Cut fix the movie? Certain elements of it, yes it does. While it fixes the fatal flaw of the crappy Butler, certain elements of the movie that divides the fans will always be present. Sandman will have always killed Uncle Ben, Topher Grace will always be Venom, etc. This cut also has elements not as strong as the theatrical one, such as that odd placement of the montage people already hated, but even with that being out of left field and weird, the additions made to Sandman and Harry make it a superior film overall and I think it is worth checking out. It is probably not the Spider-Man 3.1 people wanted, but I am glad this version exists.
NotNickFury
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Actually considering buckling down and getting Spider-Man 3 at some point. Of the Raimi films, it's the one on DVD that I've never owned not due to some hatred, just never got around to it. And I think it could be worth a rewatch because there's a lot in it that I do like, whether it's Sandman reforming, Peter in the black suit for the first time mirroring his origin, Jameson, Aunt May's talks with Peter. The movie is flawed, but I still find a lot of good in it as well.
But above all else, before we got the Nolan films and MCU, Spider-Man 3 tonally felt the most consistent, I feel, with the previous two films, compared to other thirds in superhero films like Superman III, X-Men: the Last Stand, Blade Trinity, and, to an extent, Batman Forever (and what came next). But largely in part because Raimi directed all three films, Spider-Man 3 feels more in line with the first two movies, which you didn't see a lot with thirds in superhero franchises.
But above all else, before we got the Nolan films and MCU, Spider-Man 3 tonally felt the most consistent, I feel, with the previous two films, compared to other thirds in superhero films like Superman III, X-Men: the Last Stand, Blade Trinity, and, to an extent, Batman Forever (and what came next). But largely in part because Raimi directed all three films, Spider-Man 3 feels more in line with the first two movies, which you didn't see a lot with thirds in superhero franchises.
ItchyWebShooter
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100% agreed. Spider-Man 3 is definitely worth several rewatches (at least once yearly for me). I love the whole trilogy and while it's certainly my least favorite and the least well-made, it's still got the heart and soul of what made the first film (and the whole series) great.
Pfeiffer-Pfan
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Nolan's trilogy takes the ''most consistent'' title for me. However, its very close.
NotNickFury
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Just bought 3. Bit oddly placed because I own 1 and 2 on standard DVD, and now 3 on Blu-Ray, but no way in the world am I shelling out the cash for the Blu-Ray trilogy boxset when I already own two of the three films. Will have to watch these back to back at some point.
DawnWarrior
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^I was actually in your exact situation but got the Blu-Ray trilogy anyway. I might have got it used or something, it's been a while.
henzINNIT
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I got the new boxset, which despite being like a quintuple dip, I'm happy to have. With a near comprehensive collection of extras, 2.1 and the Editor's cut, along with some nice artwork, it's definitely the definitive collection for now.
NotNickFury
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Yeah, I may buckle at some point. There were maybe four or so copies of the trilogy and it'd be nice to have as an item and would take up less space than the three movies individually. Plus, I can't imagine off the top of my head what Spider-Man 1 and 2 look like in higher definition. Perhaps I'll pick up the trilogy later this year. Maybe it'll be at a lower price on Black Friday- same way I picked up Civil War, Apocalypse, and Deadpool all at once at a lower rate- and I can pick it up that way.
AVEITWITHJAMON
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Been planning a Raimi trilogy re-watch for some time, but with Homecoming out this week, I started tonight with his first.
Man, I had forgotten how much I loved this movie, the heart, the drama, the emotion, the score, the actors, the characterisation, it is all so on point in this movie. Uncle Ben's death is still moving as hell, and there are other powerful moments throughout leading to Peter rejecting MJ in order to protect and then THAT final swing.
Spidey 2 is next, and I loved that even more. These movies are still so damn good. And for me they mix humour, drama and emotion so much better than the likes of the MCU and DCEU movies.
Man, I had forgotten how much I loved this movie, the heart, the drama, the emotion, the score, the actors, the characterisation, it is all so on point in this movie. Uncle Ben's death is still moving as hell, and there are other powerful moments throughout leading to Peter rejecting MJ in order to protect and then THAT final swing.
Spidey 2 is next, and I loved that even more. These movies are still so damn good. And for me they mix humour, drama and emotion so much better than the likes of the MCU and DCEU movies.
henzINNIT
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There's something about the tone that really appeals to me. It feels like a comic book world more than most. A lot of the cheese that people complain about are my favourite parts. Everything is so... sincerely heightened.
A popular choice (for good reason), but I found the changes to Gotham and Rachel jarring and didn't really like TDKR. Raimi all day for me.
ItchyWebShooter
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100% agree. It feels like all the best elements of Lee/Ditko/Romita/Stern/JRJR jumped off the pages into a moving picture.
AVEITWITHJAMON
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Oh man, I agree so much with the tone. Even little things like when Goblin attacks the Unity Day Festival, and a woman from the crowd points and says "its Spiderman!" Whilst having a big cheesy smile on her face, are just great.
All of the Uncle Ben stuff is handled so perfectly as well. Even watching it 15 years later I am almost in tears at some parts. They are movies just made with care and affection which sines through whilst watching them. Especially the first 2.
All of the Uncle Ben stuff is handled so perfectly as well. Even watching it 15 years later I am almost in tears at some parts. They are movies just made with care and affection which sines through whilst watching them. Especially the first 2.
Elevator Man
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I think that young woman was the daughter of the late producer Laura Ziskin.
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I rewatched all the Spider-Man films this week. Spider-Man 2 is still a masterpiece and top 5 CBM. Spider-Man has some dated elements and never gives us that defining Spidey vs Goblin fight, but the origin is overall so well done. Spider-Man 3 is deeply flawed, but has so much good in it! TASM has a few scenes that make me forget overall film itself is not good, and TASM2 is an absolute disaster.
Now we shall see how Homecoming stacks up tonight.
Now we shall see how Homecoming stacks up tonight.
Bruce Malone
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If the series went on longer do you think there'd have been more dramatic alterations to the costume?
There were always minor adjustments but the movable eyes on the Holland suit, do you think something like that could have been incorporated?
There were always minor adjustments but the movable eyes on the Holland suit, do you think something like that could have been incorporated?
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