The Official "I Loved Raimi's Spider-Man' Thread - Part 1 of 99 Luft - Part 3

[Anno_Domini]

Wow, that version is fantastic! And the fact that he used the best Spider-Man cartoon ever, TSSM.

I guess I past over this post, but I'll reply to it now...

so throughout the whole after-hype session, no one ever posted this version of the trailer? Besides this and 'How It Should Have Ended', Spider-Man 3 has a warm place in my heart only because of those two, lol.

 

[Spider-Aziz]

No, lol...that was the name of the purple dude....Ivan Ooze...both are named Ivan, so I used that picture to answer your question on which of Raimi's brothers helped him with the script.

But...heck yes! I would love to see Woody and Buzz Lightyear going up against Green 'Beetleborg' Goblin.

Oh, long time since I saw the movie, only remember him as Ooze. Nice one, thanks

Thank you

Why?

He looks like a Pixar toy

 

[Godzilla2014]

Well, I now own Spider-Man 3 on DVD!

 

[Spider-ManHero12]

Well, I now own Spider-Man 3 on DVD!

Good!

 

[Miss Croft]

Well, I now own Spider-Man 3 on DVD!

Congratulations!

Yesterday, I just saw Spider-Man 3 with my sister (she hadn't seen it a long time) again on blu-ray. Well, normally she like it too, but I made the mistake showing her this before http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HoNgMVFQNBI. Well then she laughed too much in the scene on the bridge with MJ and Pete. Am I the only one who think this scene is touching?

 

[Spider-ManHero12]

I thought the scene was VERY touching.

 

[Godzilla2014]

Good!

And now having seen the whole film (from start to finish) for the first time since I saw it in theaters, I have to say that the sting of initial disappointed has indeed faded with time, and I can much more easily see what works, what doesn't work, and how the latter could have worked. While it's still not the best of the trilogy, in fact it isn't as good as either of its predecessors, Spider-Man 3 is not without its redeeming factors.
What Works:

• Most, if not all, of the performances from the cast are good, given the material.
• Great special and visual effects throughout and great action sequences. As I have said before, the initial battle between Harry Osborn and Peter Parker is a breathtaking experience, and it's a shame that the first film's Spider-Man/Green Goblin fight scenes never had this kind of pulse-pounding, frenetic style that Spider-Man lends himself to. The effects for both Sandman and Venom are excellent, and the hard work put into these characters pays off.
• The overall concepts and themes are sound, like the themes of forgiveness vs revenge, and the terrible things people can do to the ones that they love unintentionally.
• Other than the dancing scenes, the symbiote subplot is well executed as it makes Peter more aggressive.
• The reflections of scenes from Spider-Man, like the scene where Peter falls asleep and the symbiote bonds to him, which parallels his original transformation from the first film.
• The scene when MJ is trying to reach out to Peter to stop him from doing something he might regret. I thought that was a good scene, that really takes advantage of having Peter and Mary Jane be together.

What Doesn't Work:

• The narrative is unfocused as the film's three villains fight for main villain status, as well as the multiple subplots that really don't have much to do with each other.
• Some scenes feel far too rushed through, like Harry using the Goblin serum, and Peter's first confrontation with Harry since he discovered Peter's secret identity. Peter and Harry's relationship should be the core of the movie, but it seems to get trampled in a mess of characters, subplots, and contrivances.
• The dancing scenes. These belong in a parody or a blooper reel, not the film.
• Little development for the villains. Sandman's sob story about his sick daughter is undermined because we only see her once, and we never see his progress toward accomplishing this goal. Harry gets amnesia so that the film can reset his character arc while Sandman is the Big Bad. The symbiote is woefully underdeveloped, as is Eddie Brock.
• Repetition of the "Mary Jane is taken hostage" climax. Sam, you have gone to the well once too many.
• Harry Osborn isn't enough of a threat to Peter in the film. He takes Peter on twice, and not only is he defeated, but his life is endangered from the severe ass kicking both times. To add insult to injury, he becomes the New "Goblin", not Green Goblin II, and he looks nothing at all like a goblin in costume, but a crazy snowboarder with a bunch of blades.
• Under the influence of the symbiote, Peter attempts to murder Sandman and Harry, but accidentally hitting Mary Jane is his wake-up call to get rid of the symbiote? Why not have him brutally beat Harry to a pulp, then have a crisis of conscience, take him to the hospital, and then get rid of the symbiote, tying the symbiote story to Harry Osborn's storyline?
• Artificial BS conflicts for Peter and Mary Jane. Why can't these people tell each other basic things like "I was fired from the play" and "Look out, Harry thinks I killed his father, so he may try to use you to attack my heart"?
• Harry's amnesia. I know it was done in the comics with Norman, but it was stupid there, and it was stupid here.
• The symbiote costume should have the symbol from the comics, to make it look not so much like the red-and-blue outfit.

Overall, I think that the worthy followup to Spider-Man 2 is in there, but it's somewhat buried in a bunch of characters, subplots, plot points, contrivances, et cetera. I think it was too ambitious for its own good, and it collapses under the weight of all the things it tries to achieve. Even so, it is not a bad superhero movie, and though it neither broke the "Trilogy curse" nor did it meet my prerelease expectations, it isn't terrible nor is it a train wreck.

 

[Anno_Domini]

Well, I now own Spider-Man 3 on DVD!

I own Spider-Man 3 as well...

t:

Yesterday, I just saw Spider-Man 3 with my sister (she hadn't seen it a long time) again on blu-ray. Well, normally she like it too, but I made the mistake showing her this before http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HoNgMVFQNBI. Well then she laughed too much in the scene on the bridge with MJ and Pete. Am I the only one who think this scene is touching?

I was almost asleep when that scene came on in the theatre and laughed my ass off when he started to cry. The whole plot of Harry's revenge being to break up Peter and MJ was too ignorant and doesn't even compare to what his father did, which was to try and KILL Peter's loved ones. No wonder Norman was always pissed off at Harry even after death, his ideas are that of a fifth grader.

 

[Godzilla2014]

I thought the scene was VERY touching.

I was not a fan of the way that it was set up. Why doesn't Mary Jane simply tell Peter that Harry snuck into her house and threatened to kill him if she didn't break up with him? I mean, I might have bought that if the film had really allowed Harry to come off as a major threat to Peter, but seeing as to how each time they fought, Harry nearly died, it comes off as contrived.

 

[Anno_Domini]

What Works:
[*]Most, if not all, of the performances from the cast are good, given the material.

I will say that this is true. If you take out my problems with Tobey Maguire and Kirsten Dunst, everyone else was on their A game, even with the script's flaws.

[*]Great special and visual effects throughout and great action sequences. As I have said before, the initial battle between Harry Osborn and Peter Parker is a breathtaking experience, and it's a shame that the first film's Spider-Man/Green Goblin fight scenes never had this kind of pulse-pounding, frenetic style that Spider-Man lends himself to. The effects for both Sandman and Venom are excellent, and the hard work put into these characters pays off.

The visual effects are mind-blowing, as show in the birth of Sandman and the birth of Venom. BUT...Sandman sounding like a ******ed T-Rex wasn't necessary and it felt like they were sloppy on figuring out how to pick the right sound for Sandman.

[*]The overall concepts and themes are sound, like the themes of forgiveness vs revenge, and the terrible things people can do to the ones that they love unintentionally.

The themes are perfectly fine and fitting for the third installment, but needed much work in its conclusion, imo.

[*]Other than the dancing scenes, the symbiote subplot is well executed as it makes Peter more aggressive.

Aside from the dancing scenes and the cocky attitude, we only saw how aggressive he could get from only his one battle with Sandman(including smashing Eddie's camera) and pushing Eddie into that picture. Aside from those, we only see pictures of black-suited Spidey doing some damage to some regular thugs, which we should have seen on film instead of seeing two of too many dance scenes.

Plus, I wish we got some reasoning of why the symbiote, in the first place, decided to follow Peter. The symbiote story from the beginning felt very open-ended.

What Doesn't Work:

• The narrative is unfocused as the film's three villains fight for main villain status, as well as the multiple subplots that really don't have much to do with each other.
• Some scenes feel far too rushed through, like Harry using the Goblin serum, and Peter's first confrontation with Harry since he discovered Peter's secret identity. Peter and Harry's relationship should be the core of the movie, but it seems to get trampled in a mess of characters, subplots, and contrivances.
• The dancing scenes. These belong in a parody or a blooper reel, not the film.
• Little development for the villains. Sandman's sob story about his sick daughter is undermined because we only see her once, and we never see his progress toward accomplishing this goal. Harry gets amnesia so that the film can reset his character arc while Sandman is the Big Bad. The symbiote is woefully underdeveloped, as is Eddie Brock.
• Repetition of the "Mary Jane is taken hostage" climax. Sam, you have gone to the well once too many.
• Harry Osborn isn't enough of a threat to Peter in the film. He takes Peter on twice, and not only is he defeated, but his life is endangered from the severe ass kicking both times. To add insult to injury, he becomes the New "Goblin", not Green Goblin II, and he looks nothing at all like a goblin in costume, but a crazy snowboarder with a bunch of blades.
• Under the influence of the symbiote, Peter attempts to murder Sandman and Harry, but accidentally hitting Mary Jane is his wake-up call to get rid of the symbiote? Why not have him brutally beat Harry to a pulp, then have a crisis of conscience, take him to the hospital, and then get rid of the symbiote, tying the symbiote story to Harry Osborn's storyline?
• Artificial BS conflicts for Peter and Mary Jane. Why can't these people tell each other basic things like "I was fired from the play" and "Look out, Harry thinks I killed his father, so he may try to use you to attack my heart"?
• Harry's amnesia. I know it was done in the comics with Norman, but it was stupid there, and it was stupid here.
• The symbiote costume should have the symbol from the comics, to make it look not so much like the red-and-blue outfit.

to all of this

 

[Anno_Domini]

I was not a fan of the way that it was set up. Why doesn't Mary Jane simply tell Peter that Harry snuck into her house and threatened to kill him if she didn't break up with him? I mean, I might have bought that if the film had really allowed Harry to come off as a major threat to Peter, but seeing as to how each time they fought, Harry nearly died, it comes off as contrived.

If MJ told Peter, it would've rushed the story

Plus...if MJ told Peter, what the hell could Harry have done anyways EXCEPT to run and hide? It's not like he was at all a challenge as seen in their first battle.

 

[Godzilla2014]

I own Spider-Man 3 as well...

t:



I was almost asleep when that scene came on in the theatre and laughed my ass off when he started to cry. The whole plot of Harry's revenge being to break up Peter and MJ was too ignorant and doesn't even compare to what his father did, which was to try and KILL Peter's loved ones. No wonder Norman was always pissed off at Harry even after death, his ideas are that of a fifth grader.

I have to agree as well. It would not have worked had Peter simply told Mary Jane that Harry blames him for his father's death. You know, like a reasonable person would.
If Harry wants to attack Peter's heart, then wouldn't extra-greasy cheeseburgers be more effective?

 

[Anno_Domini]

I have to agree as well. It would not have worked had Peter simply told Mary Jane that Harry blames him for his father's death. You know, like a reasonable person would.
If Harry wants to attack Peter's heart, then wouldn't extra-greasy cheeseburgers be more effective?

You'd think after letting MJ in on him being Spider-Man, Peter would come clean on his problems and what not, and if you don't tell eachother what's going on, that's not going to be a relationship that lasts, lol.

Extra-greasy cheeseburgers sound really good right now by the way. I need to drop by at Five Guys sometime tonight.

 

[Miss Croft]

I thought the scene was VERY touching.

Really? Cool.

 

[Godzilla2014]

The visual effects are mind-blowing, as show in the birth of Sandman and the birth of Venom. BUT...Sandman sounding like a ******ed T-Rex wasn't necessary and it felt like they were sloppy on figuring out how to pick the right sound for Sandman.

Agreed.

The themes are perfectly fine and fitting for the third installment, but needed much work in its conclusion, imo.

I agree. I think the overall script could have been great with some more polishing. Decide on a single main villain, drop some subplots, intertwine other subplots, remove and/or rewrite some bad scenes here and there, and I think it could work on the level of its predecessors.

Aside from the dancing scenes and the cocky attitude, we only saw how aggressive he could get from only his one battle with Sandman(including smashing Eddie's camera) and pushing Eddie into that picture. Aside from those, we only see pictures of black-suited Spidey doing some damage to some regular thugs, which we should have seen on film instead of seeing two of too many dance scenes.

Plus, I wish we got some reasoning of why the symbiote, in the first place, decided to follow Peter. The symbiote story from the beginning felt very open-ended.

Don't forget when Peter attempted to murder Harry for stealing MJ from him. Also, the symbiote Spider-Man acts outwardly more aggressive and forceful in his mannerisms and actions in general. It's subtle, but if you know what you're looking for, you'll find it.

That said, I was hoping and expecting to see the symbiote's bond as a metaphor for addiction, such as alcoholism and drug addiction, and the symbiote itself a metaphor for personal demons. When the film uses that (and it does), the symbiote story works, and when it doesn't, (like in the dancing scenes) it fails.

to all of this

Thanks!

If MJ told Peter, it would've rushed the story

Plus...if MJ told Peter, what the hell could Harry have done anyways EXCEPT to run and hide? It's not like he was at all a challenge as seen in their first battle.

Exactly. That was a big problem I have with the film. Harry becoming a Goblin has been set up for two films, and all he does is nearly die as a result of fighting Peter twice?

 

[Miss Croft]

What Doesn't Work:

• Under the influence of the symbiote, Peter attempts to murder Sandman and Harry, but accidentally hitting Mary Jane is his wake-up call to get rid of the symbiote? Why not have him brutally beat Harry to a pulp, then have a crisis of conscience, take him to the hospital, and then get rid of the symbiote, tying the symbiote story to Harry Osborn's storyline?

After S-M2 I had thought the next movie would just be about Harry-Peter. And tying the symbiote story to that would have fit perfectly. Alas.

Nice review, by the way!

I was almost asleep when that scene came on in the theatre and laughed my ass off when he started to cry. The whole plot of Harry's revenge being to break up Peter and MJ was too ignorant and doesn't even compare to what his father did, which was to try and KILL Peter's loved ones. No wonder Norman was always pissed off at Harry even after death, his ideas are that of a fifth grader.

I really can't stand some of this stupid MJ-Peter fake-relation-ship-problems-I-don't-talk-to-you they put in the movie. But I still feel sad, when he cries, in that scene I just feel sorry for him, and I doesn't think of "Raimi designed a bad plot" but of how sad it is.

 

[Godzilla2014]

You'd think after letting MJ in on him being Spider-Man, Peter would come clean on his problems and what not, and if you don't tell eachother what's going on, that's not going to be a relationship that lasts, lol.

Exactly. This is a big problem in the film's romantic conflicts between Peter and Mary Jane. A lot of them result from one of them not telling the other something important, because of plot contrivances. With all of the subplots and characters, did we really need so many romantic conflicts?

Extra-greasy cheeseburgers sound really good right now by the way. I need to drop by at Five Guys sometime tonight.

Maybe I should as well.

 

[Spider-ManHero12]

Really? Cool.

Yeah, it really was just emotional overall.

 

[Godzilla2014]

After S-M2 I had thought the next movie would just be about Harry-Peter. And tying the symbiote story to that would have fit perfectly. Alas.

Nice review, by the way!

Thanks! I was just remembering where I thought the movie would go before I saw it. In the end, what I speculated ended up being better than the actual film.

I really can't stand some of this stupid MJ-Peter fake-relation-ship-problems-I-don't-talk-to-you they put in the movie. But I still feel sad, when he cries, in that scene I just feel sorry for him, and I doesn't think of "Raimi designed a bad plot" but of how sad it is.

I just can't help but think, "Hey, MJ, you do realize that the last time Harry tried to kill Peter, he ended up in the hospital, right?"

 

[Gwendolyn Stacy]

So, out of curiosity, am I the only one here who liked the dancing scenes in Spider-Man 3? I still think it's funny and I have a friend that liked it too.

 

[Anno_Domini]

Don't forget when Peter attempted to murder Harry for stealing MJ from him. Also, the symbiote Spider-Man acts outwardly more aggressive and forceful in his mannerisms and actions in general. It's subtle, but if you know what you're looking for, you'll find it.

Trying to murder Harry is something I didn't bother to mention just because of how it was purposed. It was like Peter was just an ex-boyfriend that was pissed off than anything and the symbiote just pushed more emphasis unto that...that's not how I want the symbiote to come out as. I want the aggression, yes, but in more appropriate scenarios, and also more matured scenarios.

And I didn't really catch on any evolution with his mannerisms because even TSSM did a much better job with those subtle hints, and I wish there were just...more to the symbiote than what we saw.

There's always hope for next time the symbiote ever shows up though...someone may do it right.

That said, I was hoping and expecting to see the symbiote's bond as a metaphor for addiction, such as alcoholism and drug addiction, and the symbiote itself a metaphor for personal demons. When the film uses that (and it does), the symbiote story works, and when it doesn't, (like in the dancing scenes) it fails.

And so many times has Sam Raimi said he wanted the symbiote to be shown as a "drug" or an "addiction problem", but it sure didn't seem like that, imo. Drugs usually and typically make someone angry day by day when they're being used, not make the person more "suave". When does cocaine ever make someone cocky and dance? Lol.

I mean, making the symbiote resemble more like heroin and PCP is something I could get into if Raimi wanted to portray the symbiote like a drug.

Exactly. That was a big problem I have with the film. Harry becoming a Goblin has been set up for two films, and all he does is nearly die as a result of fighting Peter twice?

Yah, Harry's arc really went downhill on the third installment which shouldn't have been the reason. I mean, he was very promising from the last couple of his scenes in Spider-Man 1 and throughout Spider-Man 2.

 

[Anno_Domini]

So, out of curiosity, am I the only one here who liked the dancing scenes in Spider-Man 3? I still think it's funny and I have a friend that liked it too.

Are you the only one? No, I bet a few enjoyed it.

But to me...it was worse than listening to "Friday".

 

[Anno_Domini]

I really can't stand some of this stupid MJ-Peter fake-relation-ship-problems-I-don't-talk-to-you they put in the movie. But I still feel sad, when he cries, in that scene I just feel sorry for him, and I doesn't think of "Raimi designed a bad plot" but of how sad it is.

That's really the only thing I could think about besides laughing. I mean, watching that made me think, "Is THIS the big idea for revenge? Really?". I mean, besides trying to kill Peter in the beginning, his new plan was just to break them up. So, so, so dumb.

Exactly. This is a big problem in the film's romantic conflicts between Peter and Mary Jane. A lot of them result from one of them not telling the other something important, because of plot contrivances. With all of the subplots and characters, did we really need so many romantic conflicts?

The MJ/Harry conflict was just ignorant and someway to have Harry back into the mix because his storyline flatlined as soon as he was given amnesia.

 

[Spider-ManHero12]

Elfman is god.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Ac4xamCIgY

 

[Godzilla2014]

So, out of curiosity, am I the only one here who liked the dancing scenes in Spider-Man 3? I still think it's funny and I have a friend that liked it too.

Possibly. My problem was that it was comic relief where comic relief doesn't belong. I don't want to laugh at Peter under the symbiote's influence, I want to be as scared of him as he is of himself.

Trying to murder Harry is something I didn't bother to mention just because of how it was purposed. It was like Peter was just an ex-boyfriend that was pissed off than anything and the symbiote just pushed more emphasis unto that...that's not how I want the symbiote to come out as. I want the aggression, yes, but in more appropriate scenarios, and also more matured scenarios.

And I didn't really catch on any evolution with his mannerisms because even TSSM did a much better job with those subtle hints, and I wish there were just...more to the symbiote than what we saw.

There's always hope for next time the symbiote ever shows up though...someone may do it right.

The more aggressive mannerisms are present in the way that Peter moves, such more forcefully yanking on his webline as he swings, kicking his legs out straighter, et cetera. It is there if you look at him closely enough.

And so many times has Sam Raimi said he wanted the symbiote to be shown as a "drug" or an "addiction problem", but it sure didn't seem like that, imo. Drugs usually and typically make someone angry day by day when they're being used, not make the person more "suave". When does cocaine ever make someone cocky and dance? Lol.

I mean, making the symbiote resemble more like heroin and PCP is something I could get into if Raimi wanted to portray the symbiote like a drug.

It is in some scenes, like the scene after Mary Jane dumps him and he goes to the trunk he keeps the suit in, it reminds me of a person turning to drugs in response to a bad breakup, et cetera. It even continues when it bonds to Eddie Brock, as he says that he doesn't want to give it up, and he jumps back to the symbiote after Peter pulls him out because he can't live without it. Don't get me wrong, things like the dancing scenes are BS that doesn't belong in the metaphor, but the metaphor is there.
The symbiote also represents the darkness within the human soul, and the temptation to give into it.

Yah, Harry's arc really went downhill on the third installment which shouldn't have been the reason. I mean, he was very promising from the last couple of his scenes in Spider-Man 1 and throughout Spider-Man 2.

Agreed. Harry should have been the film's main villain, with no amnesia BS.

That's really the only thing I could think about besides laughing. I mean, watching that made me think, "Is THIS the big idea for revenge? Really?". I mean, besides trying to kill Peter in the beginning, his new plan was just to break them up. So, so, so dumb.

Agreed. What was he planning to do next?

The MJ/Harry conflict was just ignorant and someway to have Harry back into the mix because his storyline flatlined as soon as he was given amnesia.

They really should have skipped him getting amnesia and have him be the film's main villain, perhaps until symbiote Peter beats the living **** out of him and he is rushed to the hospital.