The Positive Thread

[roach]

I haven't been to this forum in ages but I still see no reason why tihs is going to be bad. You have Matthew Vaughn who knocked it out of the park with First Class as producer, Josh Trank who knocked it out with Chronicle and now Simon Kinberg who just delivered a SUPERB script for Days of Future Past.

Not to mention four extremely talented lead actors and some great supporting ones as well. I'm eagerly awaiting for information on this one...

My patience with the fan base as a whole is wearing very thin. We don't learn from our lessons. The Quicksilver thing should have taught people to take a wait and see attitude.

 

[Hurm...]

I agree with SuperT. In terms of a film, this movie sounds ****ing awesome to me. I don't give a fart if it's ridiculously comic accurate or not. It has a great team and cast behind it. Bring on the FF.

 

[DrCosmic]

I forgot about Quicksilver! OMG, we hated that didn't we?

 

[Eddie]

I forgot about Quicksilver! OMG, we hated that didn't we?

Some of us did. Even those who didn't have to admit it was kind of garbage of Fox to throw him in last minute (he was a replacement for Juggernaut, who was not only in the original script, but also already cast with an actor in training four weeks prior to the change.

 

[Ragnaroknroll]

I have a positive thought: Maybe all the hate will put pressure on Fox to actually deliver a great comic book film not named X-Men. Then you can thank the haters.

I have other retorts to the points raised but I'm staying positive here.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

I have a positive thought: Maybe all the hate will put pressure on Fox to actually deliver a great comic book film not named X-Men. Then you can thank the haters.

I have other retorts to the points raised but I'm staying positive here.

There was a brief moment when Trank made a comment (while denying the accuracy of that TERRIBLE synopsis) along the lines of "Everybody will see in June 2015".

I liked that attitude, and I'd like to imagine Trank is working his butt of right now to back that up.

Unfortunately, it seems his handlers won't let him communicate any more.

So Kinberg, who has all the enthusiasm and artistic vision of a dead mollusk, has been doing all the talking about this film.

From what Kinberg says, this film sounds pretty bland, but is that because it really is bland or because Kinberg is just a lousy communicator? I'd like to believe the latter, but I'd feel a lot better if we could hear from Trank and hear some good things from Trank.

Every film I've ever looked forward to for the past 10 years or so has had a director who has been an enthusiastic advocate for the film before, during and after filming. By this time in the filming of the first FF film, Tim Story had told us many things that sounded pretty good.

It's possible that Trank has a great vision that we just haven't heard, and I have no choice but to hang on to that hope. But with nothing from Trank and comments from others that make this sound like a boring film that's not worthy of the name Fantastic Four, there's no rational reason for high expectations. . . just blind faith with nothing backing it up.

 

[DrCosmic]

^It's much more rational to go by Kinberg's track record as a scriptwriter than Kinberg's track record as a promoter when it comes to rationally drawing conclusions off of the quality of the film. It is more rational to conclude that Trank focusing on the film creates a better film, rather than spending time promoting. There's nothing irrational about going off the track record of anyone/everyone involved and noting that they have a tendency to make awesome stuff. To say that going off the track record of people involved is irrational, is itself irrational.

Also, there's nothing, absolutely nothing to indicate that this film will be boring. Though there is information saying quite the opposite (there's things you've never seen in a superhero film before). To believe it will be boring, blindly, and then call someone who goes by given information to be someone going no blind faith is incredibly backwards.

Some of us did. Even those who didn't have to admit it was kind of garbage of Fox to throw him in last minute (he was a replacement for Juggernaut, who was not only in the original script, but also already cast with an actor in training four weeks prior to the change.

It may have been opportunistic on their part. At the same time though... is there any way in the world Juggernaut could have been interesting. Plus, the idea of Vinnie Jones' character being 60+ is silly. It was a great change.

And fans haaaaated it. Oh, they hated it so much. Now they love it. This is why Fox doesn't care about accuracy, because fans forget as soon as the films come out how utterly inaccurate these things are.

 

[Ragnaroknroll]

Also, there's nothing, absolutely nothing to indicate that this film will be boring. Though there is information saying quite the opposite (there's things you've never seen in a superhero film before).

What sort of things pray tell?

I'd offer rebuttal to your other points but that wouldn't be keeping things positive so I'll stick to a simple query.

 

[DrCosmic]

What sort of things pray tell?

I'd offer rebuttal to your other points but that wouldn't be keeping things positive so I'll stick to a simple query.

I appreciate you keeping it positive, man. But no, they didn't give spoilers, just noted the film wouldn't be boring.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

Also, there's nothing, absolutely nothing to indicate that this film will be boring.

There is a lot I could say about this based on everything we've heard over the past year, but I don't want to get overly negative on this thread and vent about all the disappointing things we've heard, so I'll try to keep focused on a specific point.

Here are two quotes from Kinberg:

"They’re older than high school, but they’re not quite grown into the world. If anything, this is a coming of age story,”


"I think one of the things that's most exciting about it is the potential for the visual scale of the movie, and so it is a larger story than even Days of Future Past,"

The first quote puts me to sleep. Coming of age story? I've never read a great comic book that was a coming of age story and I've never seen a great film that was a coming of age story.

The second quote gets my attention. That's what I want to hear. I want to hear excitement in his words and the idea that we'll see something spectacular like we got in the comics. No Fantastic Four fan ever became a Fantastic Four fan because it was a coming of age story, but many Fantastic Four fans became fans because of the visual scale Kirby created.

Unfortunately, as anyone who has been paying attention knows, the second quote is for Age of Apocalypse, not Fantastic Four. Kinberg has made FAR more glowing, excited comments like that about Apocalypse than he has been able to manage for Fantastic Four. So it's not a matter of Kinberg not being able to get excited and sell a movie that he believes in. I just wish he could show some similar enthusiasm for FF.

But clearly he would rather talk about Fox's 2016 film than their 2015 film.

 

[DrCosmic]

He was in an interview about XMApoc, you can't say he'd rather talk about that than FF, when he was asked to talk about X-Men. Please don't mistake the public's interest in sequels to a movie that just came out with a studio's lack of interest in a mid-budget movie that hasn't started it's promotion cycle yet.

And... I became a Fantastic Four fan because it (UFF specifically) was a coming of age story. If you haven't read a great comic book coming of age story, pick up Invincible, or Scott Pilgrim vs The World, or Ultimate Spider-Man, or, for that matter, Wanted or Kick-Ass or Kingsman. If you haven't seen a great coming of age movie, go see Chronicle, or the Breakfast Club, jeez, Donnie Darko, Slumdog Millionaire (one of my favs), Juno, hell, Man of Steel. That's so amazing to me that you think coming of age stories are boring and that you've never seen (or didn't realize you've seen) a great coming of age movie.

Now is Kinberg telling you want to hear? No, absolutely not. Is he telling you thing that would get you most excited, that is, visual spectacle scale, is big in FF? No. He's not telling you it's small either, but that's all relative anyway. We could argue even that Kinberg himself is more excited about visual spectacle than a good story, that may or may not be true. We could even say the comments are boring... but does that make a coming of age story a boring movie? Not at all. That is not the rational conclusion, not using all the information available and not just quotes to suss out the writer's current excitement, and calling anything but going by what we think Kinberg's excitement level is irrational.

The FF promotion, to the fans, is very much damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't. If Kinberg was excited about this coming of age story and darker than Raimi/Story tone, we'd say he's excited about the wrong thing and that that is proof they're mishandling the property. If they simply state their intention and what is unique and fresh about it, then they're not excited enough so that proves that because they don't promote it with the verve or frequency of a movie for which the world has already seen the villain, his army and his powers.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

And... I became a Fantastic Four fan because it (UFF specifically) was a coming of age story.

Then it looks like you and I (and most FF fans) want two completely different things. They won't please both of us. And if you like what you're seeing, I by default, won't be able to like what I'm seeing.

 

[DrCosmic]

Not necessarily. I enjoy all versions of the FF. Please don't confuse my wider appreciation with a somehow mutually exclusive appreciation. I am able to like things that are very different from what I want and enjoy from the characters ie X-Men movies, Batman movies. Most fans seem able to do this, judging by the reactions to information before and after movies release.

And this particular line of conversation was about whether it will be good or not boring, not whether you'll get what you want. We've established you won't. But that is a separate question about whether it will be boring.

EDIT: This reaction "he didn't say 'it'll be unique' excited enough, so that's how we know the film will be boring" is case in point why Fox shouldn't promote FF, because no matter what they say, fans are putting the worst possible spin on it. It would be so dumb for them to keep feeding that machine, especially to take people who are working to make the film as great as it can be to promote something to people who don't want it (for now).

 

[Eddie]

Not necessarily. I enjoy all versions of the FF. Please don't confuse my wider appreciation with a somehow mutually exclusive appreciation. I am able to like things that are very different from what I want and enjoy from the characters ie X-Men movies, Batman movies. Most fans seem able to do this, judging by the reactions to information before and after movies release.

And this particular line of conversation was about whether it will be good, not whether you'll get what you want. We've established you won't. But that is a separate question about whether it will be good.

We're weeks into filming and we've barely got any info on the film (While some films remain fairly secretive, this is highly unusual for a major comic adaptation these days. Dragonball Evolution, from the same studio, already had a decent amount of casting, set photos, and open calls for extras at this pont in production). The director seems to have had a mini meltdown prior to filming (attacking fans and deleting his Twitter account, plus the heavily publicized rumors of replacement last minute), one of the four main actors has personal issues going on, one of the stars has been busy with another film at least half of the time (the star playing the presumed lead, no less), one of them knew little to nothing about the project right before filming (to the extent that she wasn't sure if costumes would be part of it, unintentionally revealing that costume fittings hadn't taken place), and the one actor that genuinely seems excited has been in at least two other states during filming just hanging out. The only person actively promoting the film has said false information in nearly every one of those interviews (the X-Men television show nonsense is particularly bad as publicly available court documents tell us that Marvel has the television rights). I'm pretty sure you have to live in Colorado or Washington to legally have the means to feel positive about any of that.

 

[DrCosmic]

We have info similar to weeks into filming from other efforts from these filmmakers, all have been high quality. That is more consistent than comparing it to other unrelated Fox films from the old regime.

As someone who considers attacking fans and deleting his account from time to time, that's not a meltdown, that's a natural reaction to some of the *******ry that fans have given this film.

Nitpicking the actors is nice, but that sounds similar to every film ever. I may not feel positive about it, but I don't feel negative about it, since these are common things in films of all qualities. In fact, I can't think of a great film where the writers have been notably knowledgable about publically available court documents, lol. What an odd expectation, the filmmakers' legal knowledge.

In fact, let's stay there for a moment, because that's ridiculous. At what point does an writer's knowledge of legal documents impact your perception of a film's quality? How does that pass as being a reasonable thing to anyone? And then, after critiqueing the actors' downtime and legal knowledge, expect filmmakers to be excited about talking to you?

And this information, that requires digging is just another example of it being pointless to promote and tell you more. They've given you information, you don't care about that, you'd rather dig for "problems," which is fine in and of itself, but then you respond as though your research for negative things is clearly a major factor and the obvious positive elements don't exist.

It does not take drugs to look forward to a Josh Trank/Matthew Vaughn/Mark Millar/Simon Kinberg/Miles Teller/Michael B. Jordan/Kate Mara/Jamie Bell realistic, coming of age film featuring stuff you've never seen in a superhero film. It takes drugs not to. -shrug-

Unless you can acknowledge the IMMENSE amount of talent going into this film, you don't truly belong in the positive thread. -super shrug-

 

[Orba]

Nitpicking the actors is nice, but that sounds similar to ever film ever. I may not feel positive about it, but I don't feel negative about it, since these are common things in films of all qualities. In fact, I can't think of a great film where the actors have been notably knowledgable about publically available court documents, lol. What an odd expectation, the actors' legal knowledge.

In fact, let's stay there for a moment, because that's ridiculous. At what point does an actor's knowledge of legal documents impact your perception of a film's quality. How does that pass as being a reasonable thing to anyone? And then, after critiqueing the actors' downtime and legal knowledge, expect filmmakers to be excited about talking to you?

I'm pretty sure when he was talking about the TV rights thing he was talking about Simon Kinberg, the producer, not one of the actors.

 

[DrCosmic]

Yeah, I caught that, went back and edited. My point is not as hilarious when it's a writer, because that can actually be a problem for a courtroom drama... but the idea that Kinberg didn't know he couldn't make an X-Men TV show colors how an FF film is received is ridiculous. Kinberg, as ignorant as he is about so many things in the world that are not his job, should be utterly 100% vindicated when it comes to writing great comic book movies that stray far from the source material. But alas, his lack of X-Men legal knowledge will somehow hurt FF, even though it didn't hurt X-Men, and if you don't think that way, you're on drugs. Why won't anyone talk to us? -shrug-

 

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

LucasFilm just gave a Star Wars spinoff to Josh Trank!

Let's be clear on one thing. The guy never "attacked" fans. Posting a picture of sleeping dogs is as harmless and inoffensive as posting a "" in response to a tiresome conversation. The sensitivity around that astonishes me.

 

[DrCosmic]

That is interesting. I wouldn't have guessed that. I would have thought the Disney-Fox debate was was too hot for all that, but it looks like Disney doesn't care. Which makes sense, because if they did they would have just bought FF and Spidey back like they did Star Wars. It also suggests that Disney is truly hands off and it's acquired properties work truly independently, even politically independently, which is interesting.

I think Star Wars is going to pull an Avengers as well, have a few different properties 'come together' in a crossover. A couple Jedi, a bounty hunter and his droid, A rogueish scoundrel and his pet Rancor. Rancor smash! Good times.

Regardless, just mark them down as another set of people who have figured out that Trank makes great films without having to have seen 3 in a row first.

 

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

That is interesting. I wouldn't have guessed that. I would have thought the Disney-Fox debate was was too hot for all that, but it looks like Disney doesn't care. Which makes sense, because if they did they would have just bought FF and Spidey back like they did Star Wars. It also suggests that Disney is truly hands off and it's acquired properties work truly independently, even politically independently, which is interesting.

I think Star Wars is going to pull an Avengers as well, have a few different properties 'come together' in a crossover. A couple Jedi, a bounty hunter and his droid, A rogueish scoundrel and his pet Rancor. Rancor smash! Good times.

Regardless, just mark them down as another set of people who have figured out that Trank makes great films without having to have seen 3 in a row first.

The Disney-Fox stuff, like many things, is likely way overblown. The cross-over idea could be interesting. I'm a little apprehensive in general about these spin offs, because the appeal (for me anyway) of Star Wars has been the broader scope.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

Good for him. I always have thought Trank was the best thing about this effort. If he had studio support, a decent budget, a decent cast and a 616 based story, I'd be looking forward to FF.

 

[CyclopsWasRight]

My patience with the fan base as a whole is wearing very thin. We don't learn from our lessons. The Quicksilver thing should have taught people to take a wait and see attitude.

 

[CyclopsWasRight]

Here are two quotes from Kinberg:

"They’re older than high school, but they’re not quite grown into the world. If anything, this is a coming of age story,”

The first quote puts me to sleep. Coming of age story? I've never read a great comic book that was a coming of age story and I've never seen a great film that was a coming of age story.

You didn't think Iron Man was great?

He comes of age from a selfish, arrogant *****e to a guy who realises he can take responsibility and be a force for good.

I see that description of them like most post-College grads trying to find their way in the real world and find their purpose

 

[JP]

Good for him. I always have thought Trank was the best thing about this effort. If he had studio support, a decent budget, a decent cast and a 616 based story, I'd be looking forward to FF.

How does he not have most of those things?

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

You didn't think Iron Man was great?

He comes of age from a selfish, arrogant *****e to a guy who realises he can take responsibility and be a force for good.

I see that description of them like most post-College grads trying to find their way in the real world and find their purpose

There's a big difference between a 'coming of age story' and a film in which the protagonist has a character arc. Most stories have character arcs of some sort. That doesn't make them 'coming of age stories'.

Could Kinberg have butchered his discription? Sure. But I have to go by what he said, not by what he might have meant or what I might have wanted to hear.

I could go through nearly every element of this film and put my most optimistic spin on it and end up with a pretty good film. But that would just be lying to myself, not realistically evaluating the information.