The Dark Knight The Rachel Dawes thread

[JStorm]

If I can go issue upon issue, in the comics, without Bruce having a love interest, let alone a love-triangle, I think I can stomach one movie without anything of the sort.

That's just... Me!

 

[Mr. Socko]

Haha, what a stupid line

Can you believe this man use to write good stuff?

Now he's a joke. The "Goddamn Batman" line is not funny in any way, shape, or form Frank.

 

[Echo7Solo]

ok I'm watching Batman Begins, again. I know. Anyhow Katie's acting is making me long to see Maggie more and more. In the scenes where she is trying to come across as "tough" she is just........ well, can I say acting like a female dog? As for looks they are both attractive and kind of look alike. Katie does have the better body (thank God Katie's nipples were the only ones poking out in BB and there wasn't any on the batsuit) But overall I'd say this was inspired re-casting. Man I wish Maggie had been in Batman Begins.

 

[Nirvana]

Can you believe this man use to write good stuff?

Now he's a joke. The "Goddamn Batman" line is not funny in any way, shape, or form Frank.

Whole-heartly agreed.

 

[thejestergod6]

^ you guys are fuggin nuts its the god damn miller he is still badass....

 

[ArmsHeldOut]

^ you guys are fuggin nuts its the god damn miller he is still badass....

Badass? Nah. He's just bad.

 

[Transcended]

I guess I don't so much take it as a "love angle" but more of a "life that should have been"

Exactly. Which is why I'm grateful the Rachel character wasn't discarded when the second film came around. Thematically, she actually serves a purpose.

 

[sglass03]

I think Rachel's character is supposed to be very complicated, at least in relation to Bruce. Nolan, for one, said that he thought the story needed someone who knew Bruce from childhood, who knew the same tragedy he did (i.e., seeing him deal with his parents' death), who went through his ups and downs. Batman doesn't have that type of "friend" in the comics - unless you want to count the "Hush" storyline - and I suppose Rachel is kind of like the audience - we see what he goes through, and we also see both sides of his life (as the playboy, and as Batman.)

What makes the character more complex it is that she's a woman - so love comes in, no matter what. This is movie, and a comic book one at that - Bruce needs a love interest. With Rachel, Nolan is able to avoid having a "chick of the month" Bond babe thrown in for the hell of it just to have a sex angle.

I think Nolan had the whole "potential romance" at the end of Begins because not only does it keep Rachel relevant (besides Harvey Dent coming into the picture), but it also nixes the pressure to hire arm candy to be the new "Batman love interest" these films used to have. Even though Rachel isn't comics canon like a lot of the other characters, it allows the film to have a serious female role and a love interest at the same time. I couldn't say that for Schumacher's Batman (or a lot of other action films.)

I agree that the "love" angle seemed a little wooden at the end of "Begins," but I think we all saw it coming. It's reasonable to believe Rachel could fall in love with Bruce, even though they're "just" friends. He's single, good-looking, rich, and has a respectable quest for justice going on - stranger things have happened. What we really don't know is what Bruce feels for Rachel - is it just friendship, or more? We know he cares about her, but beyond that...? This is something "TDK" can deal with - if Dent is truly courting/dating Rachel, perhaps Bruce feels jealous, and it complicates things even more.

 

[sglass03]

Exactly. Which is why I'm grateful the Rachel character wasn't discarded when the second film came around. Thematically, she actually serves a purpose.

I agree. Not only does she have a part to play with Harvey (she could be the film equivalent of Gilda from "TLH," after all), but she also creates a love triangle between Bruce, herself, and Dent. Let's be honest here - Dent and Bruce/Batman have a complicated relationship. They're friends, associates, rivals, distrustful of each other all at once, and eventually enemies (though Bats is insistent on bringing Harvey "back.") Rachel kind of serves a purpose as one of the wedges between them.

 

[TheDarkVictory]

^ you guys are fuggin nuts its the god damn miller he is still badass....

frank miller is a sad and pathetic little weasely man. dude writes like two good things and gets beej for the rest of his life.

 

[Gianakin_]

Can you believe this man use to write good stuff?

Now he's a joke. The "Goddamn Batman" line is not funny in any way, shape, or form Frank.

Yep.

 

[Heretic]

I am in the process of ridding myself of my entire Frank Miller collection because of this...I used to like the Sin City and Martha Washington minies but I cant read them anymore. I now see him as a complete hack who got lucky.

 

[Gianakin_]

He's definately not a hack, in my book. He's a sold-out genius, the way I see it.

 

[Heretic]

He's definately not a hack, in my book. He's a sold-out genius, the way I see it.

Sold out to what? I think his work turned to crap long before the Sin City movie came out, which would have been his "sell out" moment if he had one.

He did a good thing with Elektra, and I suppose Sin City (though, as I said, I dont even see those in a positive light any longer) and most of the rest is pure garbage.

 

[Gianakin_]

I wasn't referring to his movies as the point in time when he was sold out. I agree that he turned to crap before that.
However, to call him a hack means, imo, that he never did anything good. Something that I, and you apparently, don't think.

 

[The Guard]

I think Rachel's character is supposed to be very complicated, at least in relation to Bruce. Nolan, for one, said that he thought the story needed someone who knew Bruce from childhood, who knew the same tragedy he did (i.e., seeing him deal with his parents' death), who went through his ups and downs. Batman doesn't have that type of "friend" in the comics - unless you want to count the "Hush" storyline -

Mallory Moxon was portrayed as such during Ed Brubaker's "Zeiss" storylines.

What makes the character more complex it is that she's a woman - so love comes in, no matter what.

I don't think that's really all that complex. What gives her any complexity is her interplay with Batman, but she never even questions him, so all that complexity is lost.

This is movie, and a comic book one at that - Bruce needs a love interest. With Rachel, Nolan is able to avoid having a "chick of the month" Bond babe thrown in for the hell of it just to have a sex angle.

I suppose. But "chick of the month" is an aspect from the comics. Bruce never has long relationships, because it's difficult to maintain any kind of emotional stability as Batman.

I'd argue that recasting Maggie as Rachel will only further make this feel like "another new love interest".

I think Nolan had the whole "potential romance" at the end of Begins because not only does it keep Rachel relevant (besides Harvey Dent coming into the picture), but it also nixes the pressure to hire arm candy to be the new "Batman love interest" these films used to have.

The love interest in BATMAN was Vicki Vale, and she served the story. Ditto Selina Kyle in BATMAN RETURNS. Ditto Chase Meridian in BATMAN FOREVER. None of them were useless. The only real pointless love interest in the franchise was Julie Madison, and she was played more toward Bruce's playboy side, and less like an actual love interest.

Even though Rachel isn't comics canon like a lot of the other characters, it allows the film to have a serious female role and a love interest at the same time. I couldn't say that for Schumacher's Batman (or a lot of other action films.)

Vicki wasn't serious? Selina wasn't serious? Chase wasn't at least a little serious?

I agree that the "love" angle seemed a little wooden at the end of "Begins," but I think we all saw it coming. It's reasonable to believe Rachel could fall in love with Bruce, even though they're "just" friends. He's single, good-looking, rich, and has a respectable quest for justice going on - stranger things have happened. What we really don't know is what Bruce feels for Rachel - is it just friendship, or more? We know he cares about her, but beyond that...? This is something "TDK" can deal with - if Dent is truly courting/dating Rachel, perhaps Bruce feels jealous, and it complicates things even more.

The question is...at this point, why should we care? He made it clear that he doesn't think he can have a relationship with her, and frankly, Bale and Holmes had no absolutely no chemistry together, so anything between Bruce and Rachel in THE DARK KNIGHT is going to feel like it's coming out of the blue.

I don't mind the "friendship" angle, but the romantic aspects of it are just forced. I would have much preferred for someone from the comics to be the three movie long "love interest", not someone they made up from scratch. That would have seemed like the smart choice, at least.

Selina Kyle, perhaps. Make them childhood friends, and add yet another element of tragedy to things.

 

[Heretic]

I wasn't referring to his movies as the point in time when he was sold out. I agree that he turned to crap before that.
However, to call him a hack means, imo, that he never did anything good. Something that I, and you apparently, don't think.

I think he got lucky. I used to freakin worship at his throne...until right around maybe Lance Blastoff, which coincided with less than stellar Martha and Sin City books (memory fades, but Im thinking that). Even the worst comic writers could occasionally stumble onto a good few issues.

 

[Gianakin_]

I don't mind the "friendship" angle, but the romantic aspects of it are just forced.

Maybe he'll play up that angle in TDK and bring back the love angle in BB3, along with a choice he must face between her and Selina?
Rachel appeals to Bruce, but Catwoman to Batman. And if they play the duality angle in BB3, those 2 along with Two-Face would flesh it out quite nicely.
But in order to do that, the love angle in TDK would have to be between her and Dent. So, she and Bruce are friends now, with an underlying romance throughout the film.

 

[Gianakin_]

I think he got lucky. I used to freakin worship at his throne...until right around maybe Lance Blastoff, which coincided with less than stellar Martha and Sin City books (memory fades, but Im thinking that). Even the worst comic writers could occasionally stumble onto a good few issues.

I don't know about that. Some successes are sheer coincidence, sure, but I honestly can't agree or disagree with you about Miller.

 

[ArmsHeldOut]

I am in the process of ridding myself of my entire Frank Miller collection because of this...I used to like the Sin City and Martha Washington minies but I cant read them anymore. I now see him as a complete hack who got lucky.

Even in some of his better works there were signs of things to come from Miller. The way he portrayed Superman and Catwoman, the former as a blundering idiot, the latter a prostitute turned madam.
As those 'minor' details were overlooked by many, Miller likely felt he was given a green light of sorts to go ahead and trash more characters, and trash them he did and continues to do. DC is lucky that that Jim Lee is on All-Star. Lucky as all get out!

 

[Gianakin_]

I loved the way he portrayed Supes, as the government's lackey.

 

[ArmsHeldOut]

I loved the way he portrayed Supes, as the government's lackey.

The idea was good, but the execution was not so great. If it tells you anything, I'm not a real Supes fan and even I didn't know what to make of the character coming off like a complete whimp. At least give him some balls.

 

[Gianakin_]

Maybe it's because I'm not a real Supes fan either. I just loved that he was the wimp and Batman beat the living daylights out him and all but called him his biatch.

 

[Mr.E.Nygma]

Maybe it's because I'm not a real Supes fan either. I just loved that he was the wimp and Batman beat the living daylights out him and all but called him his biatch.

Bravo!

 

[FinchersGhost]

For Batman Returns, it's plausible that Bruce and Vicki's split was mutual and that there was still some respect there.

This is Kim Bassinger we're talking about...