The Dark Knight Rises The TDKR Batsuit Discussion Thread VI

[the dmg]

Bats are the color black the last time I checked, have any of you ever seen a blue and grey bat before?

What? http://tolweb.org/Chiroptera

Bats usually have black or brown fur, although the fur can also be gray, white, red, or orange.

 

[mcallima]

Is it?

The thing that first got me hooked on Batman was a blue clad Batman doll, I grew up with the 'New Look" Batman, and I am not enamored with Nolan's interpretation. Nonetheless I have no hesitation in saying that black not blue is the definitive partner to gray. And I say that regardless of the fact that Batman has often been portrayed in bluest of blues. But the blue is never really meant to be blue—blue is symbolic of black.

http://www.grouchoreviews.com/content/interviews/70/4.jpg

This is not symbolic of black, as black IS on the panel. It's blue. You're quite right that blue was used as a substitute for black in the beginning, but it grew beyond that.

 

[DaveMoral]

The blue was an unfortunate side effect of firstly having to give highlights to black with blue(it's in hair too) and the gradual softening of Batman's image into the 50s and 60s. Unfortunately that blue hung with the character until fairly recently, where's it's either been toned down to a more blue-grey or now they seem to be preferring grey as a means of highlighting black.

Spider-Man was originally, I believe, intended to be sporting a red and black suit and the X-Men's original uniforms were intended to be yellow and black.

 

[Infinity9999x]

The blue was an unfortunate side effect of firstly having to give highlights to black with blue(it's in hair too) and the gradual softening of Batman's image into the 50s and 60s. Unfortunately that blue hung with the character until fairly recently, where's it's either been toned down to a more blue-grey or now they seem to be preferring grey as a means of highlighting black.

Spider-Man was originally, I believe, intended to be sporting a red and black suit and the X-Men's original uniforms were intended to be yellow and black.

I don't know if the original Spidey suit was supposed to be red/black. But I do know the symbiote suit was supposed to be. They had to change it to white because of coloring technology limitations at the time. The red bled into the black leaving a very clear splotchy look to any of the areas they colored red on the black suit.

 

[BatScot]

http://www.grouchoreviews.com/content/interviews/70/4.jpg

This is not symbolic of black, as black IS on the panel. It's blue. You're quite right that blue was used as a substitute for black in the beginning, but it grew beyond that.

IT'S BLACK

Batman in the Forties (2004) ~ intro Bill Schell
Batman’s debut in Detective #27 has the estimable value of revealing Bat-Man exactly as envisioned by Bob Kane and Bill Finger. So the result is… undiluted by editorial interference or the suggestion of others. This is Batman straight from the heads of his creators.

Les Daniel ~ Batman: The Complete History (1999)
Kane’s simple mask was transformed into a black cowl… Finger suggested that Batman’s costume be changed from red to gray. The cowl and cloak remained black, but since comics conventions demand that black objects be highlighted in blue, Batman’s uniform in effect became blue and gray.

Bob Kane ~ Batman & Me (1989)
At this point, the Bat-Man wore a red union suit; the wings, trunks, and mask were black… Bill said the costume was too bright: “Color it dark gray to make it look more ominous.”

Batman: The Ultimate Guide to the Dark Knight (2005) ~ Scott Beatty
BATMAN’S LOOK: To strike terror, he would become as the bat, sketching out a symbolic costume which would have him clad from head to toe in stealthy black and gray… [the] basic design [of the costume] has remained virtually unchanged.

Bob Ringwood ~ Reinventing the Batsuit for the Modern Era
“I had decided from the beginning that this ‘Batman’ was not going to be in blue knickers,” said costume designer Bob Ringwood. “I hated those. Bats are black, of course – not blue – and black is much more sinister and sexy. After talking to Batman creator Bob Kane, we found out that he had always thought of ‘Batman’ as being in black, but that it was very difficult to draw a black-on-black drawing for the comic strip. So he had drawn it in blue so that he could use different tones of the color for effect. In [Kane’s] mind, the blue was just a symbolic version of black. Our black costume was really nearer the original concept.”

Blue is symbolic of Black.

 

[BatScot]

Bats are the color black the last time I checked, have any of you ever seen a blue and grey bat before?

True Black is actually a rare color for bats; shades of gray are far more prevalent. People mistake bats for being black because bats are thought of as a nocturnal creatures, seen in the night, when its dark, and something grayish or brownish or redish will look black in the dark. This correlation to bats, this blending into the dark is why gray is a perfectly feasible color for Batman.

 

[Dr. Jackstraw]

There are no differences. Look again.

You're right!

I'M BLIND!

 

[DaRkVeNgeanCe]

True Black is actually a rare color for bats; shades of gray are far more prevalent. People mistake bats for being black because bats are thought of as a nocturnal creatures, seen in the night, when its dark, and something grayish or brownish or redish will look black in the dark. This correlation to bats, this blending into the dark is why gray is a perfectly feasible color for Batman.

You are correct most of the bats I've seen are a brownish/gray/reddish color but they do "appear" to be black. In most artwork in history all bats are drawn and colored to be black creatures but none are trully a full black color, the closest thing to a full black would be their wings.

 

[mcallima]

Spoiler

IT'S BLACK

Batman in the Forties (2004) ~ intro Bill Schell
Batman’s debut in Detective #27 has the estimable value of revealing Bat-Man exactly as envisioned by Bob Kane and Bill Finger. So the result is… undiluted by editorial interference or the suggestion of others. This is Batman straight from the heads of his creators.

Les Daniel ~ Batman: The Complete History (1999)
Kane’s simple mask was transformed into a black cowl… Finger suggested that Batman’s costume be changed from red to gray. The cowl and cloak remained black, but since comics conventions demand that black objects be highlighted in blue, Batman’s uniform in effect became blue and gray.

Bob Kane ~ Batman & Me (1989)
At this point, the Bat-Man wore a red union suit; the wings, trunks, and mask were black… Bill said the costume was too bright: “Color it dark gray to make it look more ominous.”

Batman: The Ultimate Guide to the Dark Knight (2005) ~ Scott Beatty
BATMAN’S LOOK: To strike terror, he would become as the bat, sketching out a symbolic costume which would have him clad from head to toe in stealthy black and gray… [the] basic design [of the costume] has remained virtually unchanged.

Bob Ringwood ~ Reinventing the Batsuit for the Modern Era
“I had decided from the beginning that this ‘Batman’ was not going to be in blue knickers,” said costume designer Bob Ringwood. “I hated those. Bats are black, of course – not blue – and black is much more sinister and sexy. After talking to Batman creator Bob Kane, we found out that he had always thought of ‘Batman’ as being in black, but that it was very difficult to draw a black-on-black drawing for the comic strip. So he had drawn it in blue so that he could use different tones of the color for effect. In [Kane’s] mind, the blue was just a symbolic version of black. Our black costume was really nearer the original concept.”

Blue is symbolic of Black.

I never denied it was Kane and Finger's intent to have a black/grey suit. The fact remains, however, that LONG after printing technology caught up to their intent, the cape and cowl was still blue. Subsequent artists intended for a blue/grey suit, until the 80's and 90's ushered in a return to black/grey.

 

[BatScot]

I never denied it was Kane and Finger's intent to have a black/grey suit. The fact remains, however, that LONG after printing technology caught up to their intent, the cape and cowl was still blue. Subsequent artists intended for a blue/grey suit, until the 80's and 90's ushered in a return to black/grey.

The fact IS both the creators of Batman and those authorized by DC to tell the definitive history say its black... even when its blue.

 

[mcallima]

The fact IS both the creators of Batman and those authorized by DC to tell the definitive history say its black... even when its blue.

Both irrelevant to a fan's subjective appreciation of the blue and grey costume.

 

[Troy_Parker]

When people want a blue suit... do they mean something like this?

If so...

l0l0l0l0l0l0l0l0l0l0l0l0l0l0l0l0l0l0l0l0l0l0l.

 

[BatScot]

Both irrelevant to a fan's subjective appreciation of the blue and grey costume.

Objectively... its black.

 

[Infinity9999x]

I have no problem with people who like the blue look. I just personally am not a fan of it. I think to do it in live action you would have to have a very stylized world that Batman would be in, with a very unique visual look. It could certainly be done.

I'm just not really interested in seeing that look brought to live action. But it's all personal preference.

 

[mcallima]

Objectively... its black.

Sorry to tell you, but fiction has no objective rules. If DC decides tomorrow to make Bruce wear pink, that pink isn't black. Furthermore, in the absence of printing obstructions, no one can OBJECTIVELY place black next to blue and say that they're both black. Objectiveness is founded in empirical fact. If you place black next to blue and say that they're both black, that's a subjective assessment. DC isn't Ingsoc, they can't say 2 + 2 = 5.

You contend that a blue/grey suit is ridiculous because real bats aren't blue. I would counter that real billionaires don't dress up as bats and fight crime. The entire concept of Batman doesn't really hold up to logic, so it shouldn't be applied selectively.

 

[regwec]

When people want a blue suit... do they mean something like this?

If so...

l0l0l0l0l0l0l0l0l0l0l0l0l0l0l0l0l0l0l0l0l0l0l.

No, that is a toy.

 

[BatScot]

Sorry to tell you, but fiction has no objective rules. If DC decides tomorrow...

The only thing that matters is what DC has already decided and they tell us its black.

You contend that a blue/grey suit is ridiculous because real bats aren't blue.

Many are of the opinion that a blue/grey suit is ridiculous and real bats are in fact not blue, but I never said either of those things. What I did was quote with reference what DC has to say about blue and quite definitively that is blue is meant to be black.

 

[DaRkVeNgeanCe]

I don't see us getting a blue and grey suit anytime soon in a bat-film or probably ever.

 

[Mister Meddle]

Maybe a black and a darkish gray suit but definitely not blue.

 

[Troy_Parker]

No, that is a toy.

I was talking about the colour my friend.

A 2D drawing is no indication of how good something will look in real life. Hell, a toy may be a better indication than a panel from a comic.

 

[Travesty]

I don't see us getting a blue and grey suit anytime soon in a bat-film or probably ever.

I think it could work, as long as it had a similar style to something like Sky Captain.

 

[Infinity9999x]

I think it could work, as long as it had a similar style to something like Sky Captain.

Agreed. Or, if not necessarily something like Sky Captain, something with a very specific visual style. Like one of Synder's films. Something that incorporates the more fantastical elements of Batman.

Again, I still would rather not see it, simply because I'm a fan of darker colors, especially for Batman. But it could definitley be done.

 

[DaRkVeNgeanCe]

I think it could work, as long as it had a similar style to something like Sky Captain.

Agreed, I never said that it absolutely would not work on film, I just feel that I don't see it ever happening, if Schumacher didn't do it I don't know who would.

We are at the point where Batman is known as a dark, brutal mysterious character and I doubt even with the reboots post Nolan that we'll ever get a purely colored straight up blue/grey costume.

 

[DaveMoral]

I think it could work, as long as it had a similar style to something like Sky Captain.

I'd still want black and grey for that. And I want it produced by Bruce Timm as a live action version of B:TAS!

 

[BatScot]

I think it could work, as long as it had a similar style to something like Sky Captain.

It's not a matter of whether it could work. Anything can be made to work. Adam West's Batman worked within the context intended and if Snyder took TDKR and put it onscreen panel for panel that would work to and it would be awesome, blue and all. But if one were charged with compiling the definitive Batman and came to the choice of choosing either the black look or the blue look we all know its going to be black.