The Dark Knight Rises The TDKR General Discussion & Speculation Thread - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 31

[Duuude]

Chris wants the audience to catch up and participate rather than push everything at them. He doesn’t dumb things down. You’ve got to pedal faster to keep up.

How can i pedal my ears faster?

 

[kvz5]

I wonder if they're launching the full site tonight, with some new still photos? I can dream, can't I?

From your typing fingers to God's ears.

ETA: Site is back up!

 

[KalMart]

How can i pedal my ears faster?

Practice.

 

[Pagan]

I wonder if they're launching the full site tonight, with some new still photos? I can dream, can't I?

[YT]k6Qd9VR1gD8[/YT]

 

[MagnarTheGreat]

Practice.

....Watching videos of hooded Kenny speaking on South Park.

 

[KRIM]

A much appreciated and Billion$+ punchline, yes. And Batman may sound humorously gravely (of which I agree), but you can still understand what he's saying.

But being hard to understand is half the joke in these parodies.

And that's what people are worrying about with Bane...whether it's technically clear enough, not if he should be speaking in another fashion.

To put it simply, this issue with the sound is too plainly obvious and technical to be an oversight...especially for a filmmaker of his accomplishment. ADR and sound mix probably haven't even started, so much of this scrutiny is likely a bit premature.

The mask probably made it hard to both pick up and perform dialogue clearly because it was muffly and restrictive...so when the edit is done and locked, the ADR will aid in a lot of that. Until then...unless they do temp/scratch ADR's, they'll have to do as best htey can with on-set dialogue which they planned to replace for final anyway.

If TDK's prologue was any indication, this scene has already been worked on and is practically finished. I'm not sure if it was Wally who commented on it back in the day, but nonetheless I'm paraphrasing, "for all intents and purposes, what you saw in the prologue is the final cut for that scene". It shouldn't be a surprise, as Nolan would hardly be foolish enough for his first true preview of the film to be one that isn't highly indicative of what to expect during the theatrical run.

And considering it's all IMAX, we at least know ADR has already been done for the scene as it's a necessity for all footage filmed with the camera. It's a matter of little tweaks at this point.

 

[KalMart]

But being hard to understand is half the joke in these parodies.

Such high concept humor they are, as well. Heaven forbid the next film provides any more fodder for parody...in any area.

If TDK's prologue was any indication, this scene has already been worked on and is practically finished.

When editing locks, that's when a lot of the rest of post, especially sound mix, starts. If editing is finished and picture locked, I'd agree. But it's still only a bit over a month removed from the end of principle...so until then, there's much that's left to do and up in the air. Yes, trailers and such that are handled separately from the main edit have their own mixes for release, but they are usually a much smaller and quicker affair than the real mccoy.

I'm not sure if it was Wally who commented on it back in the day, but nonetheless I'm paraphrasing, "for all intents and purposes, what you saw in the prologue is the final cut for that scene". It shouldn't be a surprise, as Nolan would hardly be foolish enough for his first true preview of the film to be one that isn't highly indicative of what to expect during the theatrical run.

Scenes are one thing...is the entire picture locked? Sound doesn't usually start their work a scene at a time like that. This isn't new. It may be indicative in terms of approach, but still rough in certain areas, which will happen with any film with material released so early. Sometimes it's early and less-polished effects, etc.

And considering it's all IMAX, we at least know ADR has already been done for the scene as it's a necessity for all footage filmed with the camera. It's a matter of little tweaks at this point.

IF the final edit has already been locked and it's in sound mix. And yes, they do record reference audio tracks with IMAX's and it's noisy, but they still use it in edits while selecting takes and cutting...like they do for, say, 35mm ftg. shot with a large wind machine. Some of it can be filtered out, and what you're left with can barely work for some uses...but it's not nearly as clear and controllable as separate DR done later. What makes Bane a more unique case is that headgear...it must have been very restrictive to jaw movement as well as being muffled....so you're starting with location dialogue that's difficult to begin with. It's going to take some more work.

Plus...be it a prologue or trailer, it's still, again, not the same sort of thing put into the sound as a final mix. Chances are, the indecipherable part will be well sorted out by opening....just like effects will be polished and color-timing will be finalized...even though some may feel some scenes need more color, etc. You might still prefer a different shot but you'll definitely see it.

 

[KalMart]

I just watched the prologue....

Honestly, even through the crappy handycam, he wasn't that much harder to decipher than anyone else with all that noise and music. Nothing a good mix session can't cure rather easily, while still maintaining that style of voice. His line in the official trailer is pretty much clear as day. The prologue strikes me as a rougher mix....pretty understandable since it's a whole scene released so early.

On another note....I feel that scene in the plane could stand to be cut down a bit, but maybe that's for later as well.

 

[KRIM]

Such high concept humor they are, as well. Heaven forbid the next film provides any more fodder for parody...in any area.

Parodies are rarely high concept, it is what it is. While ridicule is practically inescapable with popular works, ideally one wouldn't want to paint such easy targets.

When editing locks, that's when a lot of the rest of post, especially sound mix, starts. If editing is finished and picture locked, I'd agree. But it's still only a bit over a month removed from the end of principle...so until then, there's much that's left to do and up in the air. Yes, trailers and such that are handled separately from the main edit have their own mixes for release, but they are usually a much smaller and quicker affair than the real mccoy.

Scenes are one thing...is the entire picture locked? Sound doesn't usually start their work a scene at a time like that. This isn't new. It may be indicative in terms of approach, but still rough in certain areas, which will happen with any film with material released so early. Sometimes it's early and less-polished effects, etc.

Of course I can't comment on the film, but the prologue itself is a different story. Again, [I think it was Wally] who confirmed TDKs prologue was 100% finished by the time it was out for public release. It was a special case of course, as it had to be if it was to be ready for mainstream viewing. At the very least it informs us what to expect this time around. If all aspects of post-production were handled for TDKs prologue, it would stand to reason they likely mirrored the same process for TDKR.

Plus...be it a prologue or trailer, it's still, again, not the same sort of thing put into the sound as a final mix. Chances are, the indecipherable part will be well sorted out by opening....just like effects will be polished and color-timing will be finalized...even though some may feel some scenes need more color, etc. You might still prefer a different shot but you'll definitely see it.

Well certainly now more than ever it's going to be in consideration. By now it has reached Nolan and WB's ears that the issue deserves a second look. I'm just not convinced at the time they were shipping these reels out, they were cognizant of the fact that important technical details would be highly subject to alteration.

 

[Victarion]

His writing does seem like fan fic on paper at times. lol

I still don't buy it though.

This entire trilogy

Spoiler

is a big budget fanfiction!

 

[HighFivingMF]

Every adaptation is fan fiction.

 

[KalMart]

Parodies are rarely high concept, it is what it is. While ridicule is practically inescapable with popular works, ideally one wouldn't want to paint such easy targets.

Hasn't hurt things so far, has it?

Of course I can't comment on the film, but the prologue itself is a different story. Again, [I think it was Wally] who confirmed TDKs prologue was 100% finished by the time it was out for public release. It was a special case of course, as it had to be if it was to be ready for mainstream viewing. At the very least it informs us what to expect this time around. If all aspects of post-production were handled for TDKs prologue, it would stand to reason they likely mirrored the same process for TDKR.

And once again...the prologue can very well be finished as a scene, and signed off as 'that's how it will be'. But it doesn't mean it's gotten the full sound mix treatment. Heck, the current film I'm doing right now, some scenes were 'finished' early seven months ago, and sound mix is just working on the final version as a whole as we speak.

Yes, it's released for mainstream, but it can still get a rough treatment in some areas, as anything would this early on. I still don't see what there is to be concerned about aside from the mix...but for those who may not know as much about that I could possibly see them thinking 'it'll be hard to make out'. The answer is to look (hear) at it as an earlier effect...to be polished for final. It'll probably sound the same, but you'll be able to understand it better.

Well certainly now more than ever it's going to be in consideration. By now it has reached Nolan and WB's ears that the issue deserves a second look. I'm just not convinced at the time they were shipping these reels out, they were cognizant of the fact that important technical details would be highly subject to alteration.

Again. with an actual mix coming up, I'm sure it's something they were going to pay attention to anyway. That plane scene is a hard thing to judge/worry about the whole thing by, anyway. Even listening to that, I'm sure with that approach to the voice (which I actually like quite a bit) will be made to cut through better. It's a big part of what he time and facilities are put into.

It's kinda' like a really distorted rock guitar line that's a bit fuzzy and indistinct at times in an early mix of the song, but for the final, it's the same effects/distortion, but it will cut through better, y'know?

 

[KRIM]

Hasn't hurt things so far, has it?

The property as a whole? No. But it could easily be argued that the performance and character itself is easily a point of contention amongst fans and moviegoers alike.

And once again...the prologue can very well be finished as a scene, and signed off as 'that's how it will be'. But it doesn't mean it's gotten the full sound mix treatment. Heck, the current film I'm doing right now, some scenes were 'finished' early seven months ago, and sound mix is just working on the final version as a whole as we speak.

Yes, it's released for mainstream, but it can still get a rough treatment in some areas, as anything would this early on. I still don't see what there is to be concerned about aside from the mix...but for those who may not know as much about that I could possibly see them thinking 'it'll be hard to make out'. The answer is to look (hear) at it as an earlier effect...to be polished for final. It'll probably sound the same, but you'll be able to understand it better.

I can only relay what Wally spoke on when asked about that specific scene. This far out in post-production, I'm sure every shot is always up in the air until the deadline. He seemed pretty firm that they left everything as is, so that's what I was going off on.

Again. with an actual mix coming up, I'm sure it's something they were going to pay attention to anyway. That plane scene is a hard thing to judge/worry about the whole thing by, anyway. Even listening to that, I'm sure with that approach to the voice (which I actually like quite a bit) will be made to cut through better. It's a big part of what he time and facilities are put into.

It's kinda' like a really distorted rock guitar line that's a bit fuzzy and indistinct at times in an early mix of the song, but for the final, it's the same effects/distortion, but it will cut through better, y'know?

Ignoring the whole plane scenario for a moment, everything I've heard from Bane has been completely legible so I'm sure it's a non-issue in the end. If my experience at Heinz field was anything to go by, it will rest on Nolan's personal tampering. Hardy had little trouble getting his voice or dialog out, and there was no robotic post-processing helping to muddle his performance. To reference Batman in TDK once more, I'm not completely confident in Chris' judgment in that regard. But so much has been surrounding this issue, it would be hard for him to ignore.

 

[KalMart]

The property as a whole? No. But it could easily be argued that the performance and character itself is easily a point of contention amongst fans and moviegoers alike.

And again...so?

They'll survive.

I can only relay what Wally spoke on when asked about that specific scene. This far out in post-production, I'm sure every shot is always up in the air until the deadline. He seemed pretty firm that they left everything as is, so that's what I was going off on.

Again, the DP may not be the only person to get all the news from in this specific case. He could have seen the scene in and of itself, been told that it was signed off on, and that's the end of it. He probably wasn't there as they did a quick temp mix for release and so on. Saying that the scene is 'done' doesn't mean that there isn't more technical work to be done on it or any other scene for post and finishing, and he'll be there for the color-=correct, but probably not for the sound sessions. There's a lot left to do that will substantially affect the viewing/listening experience even outside of the edit and rough sound design. Pfister saying that scene is done doesn't really apply as much to this audio issue it may seem on the surface. The editor and director would be able to inform us better.

And remember, Pfister's also the guy who spoke about shooting the whole film in IMAX, and as it stands it'll end up being a little less than half of the movie. And that IS his department.

Ignoring the whole plane scenario for a moment, everything I've heard from Bane has been completely legible so I'm sure it's a non-issue in the end. If my experience at Heinz field was anything to go by, it will rest on Nolan's personal tampering. Hardy had little trouble getting his voice or dialog out, and there was no robotic post-processing helping to muddle his performance. To reference Batman in TDK once more, I'm not completely confident in Chris' judgment in that regard. But so much has been surrounding this issue, it would be hard for him to ignore.

I get where you're coming from, but I still believe that it's more of a knee-jerk reaction to Bane's voice...understandably without as much knowledge of sound post. As I mentioned earlier with temp VFX, it's similar and can draw similar assumptions from people. It's also one the biggest reasons why I don't like releasing too much material before completion in film, even for the purposes of whetting people's appetites...but sometimes you have to for marketing purposes.

To be honest...there are still things like the suit design or whatever else that some people will never like about the films. If that's the case, they'll never like the voice either...so it sucks to be them, I guess. Personally I think there's a lot of 'coolness' in this Bane's voice approach that discernability via mix will help a lot. Some may still not like it like vanilla lovers don't like chocolate and never will...so what're you gonn'a do, right?

 

[Oruku Saki]

Yeah, I have a really good 5.1 surround but I swear there were sound issues with TDK on dvd. Hopin to score the blu ray soon to compare. There was a lot of muffled dialogue, then the action was just supremely loud in comparison. So much so that I found myself turning my volume up at quieter dialogue heavy scenes and then down again for action pieces. Anyone else notice this issue? If so then it goes to show that there are some sound design issues in all of the Nolan Batman movies.

 

[Oruku Saki]

btw, just went back to Batman Begins to confirm this, and it had a few sound issues but seemed worse in TDK. What's funny is I haven't EVER had any other issues with sound from any of the movies I have watched on my system. Seems to me that Nolan and sound mixers like to keep the voices toned down in these films.

 

[Travesty]

Yeah, I have a really good 5.1 surround but I swear there were sound issues with TDK on dvd. Hopin to score the blu ray soon to compare. There was a lot of muffled dialogue, then the action was just supremely loud in comparison. So much so that I found myself turning my volume up at quieter dialogue heavy scenes and then down again for action pieces. Anyone else notice this issue? If so then it goes to show that there are some sound design issues in all of the Nolan Batman movies.

I have a huge issue with this and my Inception Blu Ray. I don't think I've had this with TDK, though?

 

[Bats]

I realize I may get jumped on here for this, but after watching the 2nd trailer, I was wondering if Bruce uses the cane as a decoy? To throw people off so no one thinks he's Batman? I do think Bane pummels him at one point, but when? Just throwing that out there. Talk amongst yourselves.

 

[Oruku Saki]

yeah, i'm wondering if maybe it's just a Nolan preference to keep the dialogue low key? Not sure, but it sure seems there is alot of low dialogue in some of his films. Wonder why though? With all of the adr they have to do on big budget films why not just up the vocal levels a couple notches and be done with it. I mean, most movies I watch, no matter how much noise is going on in the background (yes even an explosion) the adr levels are high enough so you can still hear the conversation of the characters. not very realistic but at least you can get all of the dialogue

 

[KalMart]

Yeah, I have a really good 5.1 surround but I swear there were sound issues with TDK on dvd. Hopin to score the blu ray soon to compare. There was a lot of muffled dialogue, then the action was just supremely loud in comparison. So much so that I found myself turning my volume up at quieter dialogue heavy scenes and then down again for action pieces. Anyone else notice this issue? If so then it goes to show that there are some sound design issues in all of the Nolan Batman movies.

Really? I never had any problems with TDK's intelligibility on BluRay at all. As I remember, it was rather common for WB DVDs to be a bit weak in the center mix. I'll agree that some of the dynamic range was pretty up there with explosions...and that peak level can sometimes effect dialogue normalization levels on a mix on home systems. It also may depend on what levels you listen at, since mixes are done/mastered for theater reference levels...which is actually pretty darn loud.

There are a lot of settings in modern receivers/preamps that can actually compensate dynamic range for lower listening levels...either through compression or other relative reference settings. Sometimes people mix things 'too good' for their own good, with too much range for consumer systems.

In that respect...I could see Bane's voice being a bit of an issue down the line after theatrical. But to be honest...if we've never had a problem hearing Darth Vader....or that guy in the old diver's suit in Hellboy 2....we shouldn't have a problem with this.

 

[Oruku Saki]

I realize I may get jumped on here for this, but after watching the 2nd trailer, I was wondering if Bruce uses the cane as a decoy? To throw people off so no one thinks he's Batman? I do think Bane pummels him at one point, but when? Just throwing that out there. Talk amongst yourselves.

I agree, this exact thing crossed my mind after I watched it again today. Kind of like Bruce in Beyond. Seems feeble but can do more than he lets on.

 

[Bats]

Late to the game, but I've never had a problem with the audio on any of the films until the prologue. Not unless you count Gordon talking to Dent in his office in the beginning of TDK. That was only on home video though, and only because Gordon talks low & fast. Weird part about the prologue is that I heard Bane better from online bootlegs than what I did in the actual IMAX theater.

 

[Oruku Saki]

I agree i believe that Bane's voice in the final theatrical cut will come through fine. My question is still whether I actually like it or not. I like it in the trailer, but it sounds different there from the prologue. If the prologue is more of what we r getting i just don't know. I do love his line from the prologue about "no one cared who I was before I put on the maaask" on the word 'mask' it sounds like he is out of breath, similar to Vader after throwing the emperor over the railing, with heavy rasping/breathing

 

[KalMart]

I still think he sounds most like Spectre #1 from the old Bond movies...but with a mask....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dW9-llaIS-g
[YT]dW9-llaIS-g[/YT]

 

[enquencle]

Yeah, I have a really good 5.1 surround but I swear there were sound issues with TDK on dvd. Hopin to score the blu ray soon to compare. There was a lot of muffled dialogue, then the action was just supremely loud in comparison. So much so that I found myself turning my volume up at quieter dialogue heavy scenes and then down again for action pieces. Anyone else notice this issue? If so then it goes to show that there are some sound design issues in all of the Nolan Batman movies.

I've had this issues too, with TDK dvd, but not with the BluRay.
The action scenes are way too loud, the firsdt time i watched it i jumped out of my seat with the first tumbler scene.

And I just watched a bootleg of the prologue, and english is not my first language, but i could understand 90% of Banes lines. I really dont think it is that bad. Nothing that can't be worked out in the final mix anyways.