The Dark Knight Rises The TDKR General Discussion & Speculation Thread - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 31

[zmystico]

Interesting....batman doesn't have his trademark claws that are normally attached to his arms.

Remember when Fox was showing him the pieces in TDK, that he said the claws can be fired...and he shot them at The Joker when he said something like "I know how you got these scars"? He probably has used them earlier in that scene.

 

[DaRkVeNgeanCe]

Whoa those pics are awesome especially the one with bats with his new toy, cant wait to see what this device does.

 

[mackblack01]

Remember when Fox was showing him the pieces in TDK, that he said the claws can be fired...and he shot them at The Joker when he said something like "I know how you got these scars"? He probably has used them earlier in that scene.

That's precisely why I think TDKR will begin exactly where TDK left us.

 

[The_Raganork]

That's precisely why I think TDKR will begin exactly where TDK left us.

Maybe but not in the scene that picture takes place because when you watch the sizzle reel you can see the gun/device is attached to the Batpod, at the end of TDK its not there.

 

[zmystico]

That's precisely why I think TDKR will begin exactly where TDK left us.

Yeah I find it odd for him to have that gun either laying around at the Bat-bunker or it magically being attached to the Batpod...I think it's something he's gotten later on and just happens to use his Bat-claws again.

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

Bane attacks the stock market and causes major damage to Gotham.

Seemingly these events (and probably some others) cause a terrible turn down in Gotham's Economy.

But you should expect there to be some very, very close similarities between events in the film and events in real life. Particularly OWS

I really hope it's not as blatant as the last film. That whole scene came off as clunky, and I felt like it was a cop-out "destroying it" (who knows? maybe it makes a complete comeback). I just felt like, despite Fox's reservations, that this is exactly the kind of thing Batman does.

"This...is...wrong" (yeah, thanks, no sh** Sherlock)
"Oh, don't worry, we just need it for like five minutes"

I think Nolan should've done something, like maybe near the end, to imply Batman just let Lucius Fox think he had destroyed it, but Bruce has a fully operational one in his proto-cave or something.

 

[The_Raganork]

I really hope it's not as blatant as the last film. That whole scene came off as clunky, and I felt like it was a cop-out "destroying it" (who knows? maybe it makes a complete comeback). I just felt like, despite Fox's reservations, that this is exactly the kind of thing Batman does.

you've got to divorce "Batman" and Batman.

Nolanverse Batman does not have the same issues as Comic Book Batman; he has moral objections to things that maybe comic Batman does not.

The sonar thing is something Batman would do but, not this Batman. Within the Context of the film and the character that has been given to us in two films his action are on par with what has been written for him previously. he serves no other characterization other than what has been given to us in BB and TDK. comics, TV shows, graphic novels are all nice inspirations but ultimately the only thing that matter is what Nolan sees the character as.

Expect it to be blatant.

when I was on set the scene they were shooting looked remarkably like OWS which was only 4 blocks away

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

you've got to divorce "Batman" and Batman.

Nolanverse Batman does not have the same issues as Comic Book Batman; he has moral objections to things that maybe comic Batman does not.

The sonar thing is something Batman would do but, not this Batman.

Yet he totally did. Like I watched it, and it's only when Freeman recoils and gives the speech about quiting when we find out about it being "null key ecrypted". So the whole thing really ends up being Deus Ex Machina. Just a machine they needed for five minutes that, as you say here, really wasn't "in character" for Nolan's Batman. If he had these immense moral reservations, they sure didn't stop him from building it without permission, so it's really not that out there to think that'd he'd continue using it without telling anyone either.

It's almost as though watching the scene, if Fox had said "Holy Patriot Act Batman! What a neat-o idea, we'll totally catch the Joker now" then Batman wouldn't have destroyed it. In fact before Fox says anything Batman seemed quite proud of his work. Fox might act as some moral compass in the scene, but it's all too convenient that Batman all of the sudden agrees with him when he clearly didn't while making it.

 

[The_Raganork]

Yet he totally did. Like I watched it, and it's only when Freeman recoils and gives the speech about quiting when we find out about it being "null key ecrypted". So the whole thing really ends up being Deus Ex Machina. Just a machine they needed for five minutes that, as you say here, really wasn't "in character" for Nolan's Batman. If he had these immense moral reservations, they sure didn't stop him from building it without permission, so it's really not that out there to think that'd he'd continue using it without telling anyone either.

He's a flawed character, obviously he felt reservations about doing it which is why the destruction code was Fox's name. He didn't make a self destruct button after Fox got angry but before. He felt it was necessary (and it probably was) but not exactly the greatest thing in the world.

It's almost as though watching the scene, if Fox had said "Holy Patriot Act Batman! What a neat-o idea, we'll totally catch the Joker now" then Batman wouldn't have destroyed it. In fact before Fox says anything Batman seemed quite proud of his work.

I'm not saying you're wrong (yet) but could you provide me an example in which Batman seems proud the machine?

I can recall him justifying it to Fox but that only seems like an audible conversation he probably had with himself at some point.

He also seems quite reluctant to talk about it at other times.

Then he doesn't use it the moment Joker escapes, he waits, almost as if waiting for some other choice but, again, some examples of him being proud of it would be nice.

 

[バット人]

I'm not saying you're wrong (yet) but could you provide me an example in which Batman seems proud the machine?

"Beautiful, isn't it?" That's such a bad ass line. I love the way Bale delivers it. One of the best "confident Batman" moments. He seemed proud to me.

 

[JL Unlimited]

I posted this in the prologue thread, but everyone there is still arguing about fact vs. opinion when it comes to film. So I'm posting this here, hope no one minds...

Did anyone else feel like the prologue edit must have been rushed? I mean, there were some weird mistakes in there that I doubt Smith or Nolan would have normally done.

My biggest complaint would be the shot they added after Bane says "Crashing this plane". The first one where the men are rappelling down is fine, but the second shot of the plane's exterior (wing mounted) was really out-of-place and overly long. Besides, does that mean Bane stood there staring at the CIA Agent for the whole time in between "Crashing this plane... with no survivors"?

Another issue I feel should be addressed is the strange double explosion when Bane's men blow out the back of the smaller plane. They should start with the interior shot and cut to the exterior, imo. Not replay it.

And lastly, when Bane says "With no survivors", they cut to a shot of the CIA agent's men being shot from the side. However, when they cut to the exterior of the plane, Bane's men are just landing on the side and getting ready to shoot.

Any thoughts?

Have you seen the prologue in theaters yet? The second shot of the plane's exterior (wing mounted) that you are referring to is cut off. I think we have the same bootleg. I think the shot shows Bane's men landing on the tail, on the top of the frame, which is cut off. That would also clear up your last issue.

 

[The_Raganork]

"Beautiful, isn't it?" That's such a bad ass line. I love the way Bale delivers it. One of the best "confident Batman" moments. He seemed proud to me.

haha, I somewhat hate that line, not because supposed implications but because of the silliness of it.


This doesn't seem convincing enough to say he's proud to be using it. I mean the visual of it is beautiful and at the very end of the day the fact still remains that he gives Fox the code to destroy it. I always felt like the Sonar device was treated like a necessary evil. Obviously Batman "likes" it more than Fox does but neither of these degrees seem to be endorsing it to the point where I actually believed one of them wanted to keep it for an indefinite amount of time.

Couple this with "Sometimes people need to have their faith rewarded" and the shot of Fox leaving the destructing scene and I'm not really confident that this was Batman's new favorite toy.

I do agree that he wanted to use it and felt it was useful but only in the sense that he felt he exhausted all his options when it came to the Joker and had to resort to a necessary evil.

 

[TinkerTailor]

"Beautiful, isn't it?" That's such a bad ass line. I love the way Bale delivers it. One of the best "confident Batman" moments. He seemed proud to me.

I remember being in the theatre thinking "Holy hell he's lost it!" when he delivered that line. Bale really sold it. It was the moment where he really did burn the forest down, and yet by the end of the film he'd brought himself back from the edge of that by saving The Joker, destroying the machine and taking the fall for Dent.

 

[バット人]

^ Yep. @Rag So Batman is contradictory in what he says and in his actions, it's not like this hasn't happened before (comics and film). Batman also has his one rule that he sticks by for the most part but lets not forget Dent being as dead as a doornail at the bottom of the hole with his neck twisted.

 

[The_Raganork]

I really hope it's not as blatant as the last film. That whole scene came off as clunky, and I felt like it was a cop-out "destroying it" (who knows? maybe it makes a complete comeback). I just felt like, despite Fox's reservations, that this is exactly the kind of thing Batman does.

"This...is...wrong" (yeah, thanks, no sh** Sherlock)
"Oh, don't worry, we just need it for like five minutes"

I think Nolan should've done something, like maybe near the end, to imply Batman just let Lucius Fox think he had destroyed it, but Bruce has a fully operational one in his proto-cave or something.

you've got to divorce "Batman" and Batman.

Nolanverse Batman does not have the same issues as Comic Book Batman; he has moral objections to things that maybe comic Batman does not.

The sonar thing is something Batman would do but, not this Batman. Within the Context of the film and the character that has been given to us in two films his action are on par with what has been written for him previously. he serves no other characterization other than what has been given to us in BB and TDK. comics, TV shows, graphic novels are all nice inspirations but ultimately the only thing that matter is what Nolan sees the character as.

Expect it to be blatant.

when I was on set the scene they were shooting looked remarkably like OWS which was only 4 blocks away

^ Yep. @Rag So Batman is contradictory in what he says and in his actions, it's not like this hasn't happened before (comics and film). Batman also has his one rule that he sticks by for the most part but lets not forget Dent being as dead as a doornail at the bottom of the hole with his neck twisted.

Somehow this has been twisted. In the above quoted text Optimus Prime says that the Sonar thing is EXACTLY what Batman does and what's in character is for Batman to have kept the Sonar Machine hidden somewhere without Fox's Knowledge.

I then said; that while I can see Comic book Batman doing this, I don't think that's in tune with Nolan's Batman and advised that we find the differences between the two Batman's. The use of the Sonar Machine is not the source of contention but rather the disposal.

I didn't say Batman is not contradictory in some incarnations, all I said was that Optimus Saying he didn't like the result of the Sonar machine because it's not something Batman would do is a bit erroneous because we're not dealing with all incarnations of Batman but rather a very specific one and his actions are in tune with the character we've known up until that point.

 

[バット人]

You're forgetting the part about Batman liking or feeling proud of the machine. I offered his "beautiful, isn't it" line and you simply laughed it off and refuted it. Despite how you or Optimus feels Batman's actions are contradictory in nature. Nothing is twisted here, I simply pointed out a quote where Batman expressed a positive feeling about the machine and how he can be contradictory at times. There's really nothing more to it than that and it's certainly not twisted.

 

[The_Raganork]

You're forgetting the part about Batman liking or feeling proud of the machine. I offered his "beautiful isn't it" line and you simply laughed it off and refuted it. Despite how you or Optimus feels Batman's actions are contradictory in nature. Nothing is twisted here, I simply pointed out a quote where Batman expressed a positive feeling about the machine and how he can be contradictory at times. There's really nothing more to it than that and it's certainly not twisted.

I didn't laugh it off or refute it. In fact I acknowledged it's probably what you say it is.

But we're talking about his ultimate feelings for the Sonar device.

I've conceded the point to a degree: He felt proud that he had a tool to find Joker BUT ultimately never intended to keep it because of the moral ramifications of using the machine.

Sure that's contradictory and that's fine but that's not what Optimus and I were discussing.

Optimus felt: Batman should have kept the machine because that's what Batman would do.

Raganork felt: Batman did the right thing in terms of who his character was at that point in the film.

Destroying it was ultimately what he always intended to do but that's only after he needed to use it.

So....to be more clear because If I don't say things blatant it seems like I'm still disagreeing.

I'm taking part of Optimus' point and saying he's right. Batman would use the machine, both Polyverse Batman and Nolanverse batman

but then also suggesting that it's destruction is not out of character for Nolanverse Batman and probably out of character for some polyverse Batmen.

 

[craigdbfan]

"This conversation again, great"

 

[Sharkboy]

First time I watched TDK, i was totally convinced that Bruce had another sonar machine in the works down in the "still in construction bat-cave" and he just let Lucius destroy the first one in order to keep him around. I totally got the vibe that Batman had finally gone in that deep end that the death of rachel had tipped his hand into using this unethical big brother machine, and he had already made the decision consciously to keep using it.

Now I'm not so sure....

 

[bgates87]

Anyone else do this pretty much every day?

Go to the Hype, scroll down to the Batman forums.
See less than 200 viewing the TDKR Forum.
*shrug* "Must not be anything going on today."
Close tab.

 

[JDonaldD]

Hi, new here. Just jumping in on the sonar bit. I think the contradictory aspects Batman shows shouldn't be seen as a flaw in the writing but a conflict that Batman is facing. His struggle for control is intensified by the Joker's actions, pushing the boundaries of what is acceptable. His "beautiful isn't?" line illustrates his love of control and his desire to have complete control hinting at some of the comic counterparts more totalitarian aspects. I think it'd be interesting to see if Bane is an extension of those traits seeing as he seems to have taken control of Gotham even more so than Batman by TDKR.

 

[バット人]

Man oh man, just like the other night with the whole "Nolanite" issue reading your posts and trying to understand how you ultimately feel is like this back and forth enigma. In the end, Batman expresses both the liberal decision that you feel the character did as well as the conservative view that Optimus observed. Who's to say Batman had the self destruct system implemented because "it was right" or "wrong" to have the machine in the first place? There's the possibility that decision could have also been made if the device got into the wrong hands, one of the reasons Batman chose Fox to handle it. I like the fact that Batman is morally ambiguous in a few scenes/ This character obviously had this sonar concept in the works before the threat of the Joker. Optimus brings up a good point as to why Batman would just carelessly "throw it away" after all the time and money that must have been put into it by the R&D team, BEHIND Fox's back. You never know, maybe Batman did destroy it because Fox was offended, not because he always intended to do it after finding the Joker. What if the Joker or someone similar to the Joker was out there again? Wouldn't it be a waste to destroy the sonar machine only to build it again? I also love the cold answer of "type in your name". I remember my first viewing that I thought that it basically meant, "after you're done here, sure, get the hell out of here and resign". Later on of course, when you see the machine on the fritz, you understand the implications of that line. Would have been nice to see an even more distant and cold Batman (especially after what happened with Rachel). Not to get into a political debate, but I personally feel Fox was overreacting but that's a completely different topic altogether and not one I'd like to get into.

 

[Sharkboy]

Hi, new here. Just jumping in on the sonar bit. I think the contradictory aspects Batman shows shouldn't be seen as a flaw in the writing but a conflict that Batman is facing. His struggle for control is intensified by the Joker's actions, pushing the boundaries of what is acceptable. His "beautiful isn't?" line illustrates his love of control and his desire to have complete control hinting at some of the comic counterparts more totalitarian aspects. I think it'd be interesting to see if Bane is an extension of those traits seeing as he seems to have taken control of Gotham even more so than Batman by TDKR.

First post on the hype and you nailed it. Welcome.

 

[Optimus_Prime_]

I'm not saying you're wrong (yet) but could you provide me an example in which Batman seems proud the machine?

Like he said: "Beautiful, isn't it?". Also, like the other poster says, it's delivered so confidently like "I don't give a sh** what you think, this f***ing thing is my masterpiece".

Even if he acts contradictory, it didn't take much for him to backpeddle such an emphatic statement.

"Beautiful, isn't it?"
"...blah blah, I'm quiting"
"Oh, well, ya'know, I don't like it that much, eh, just destroy it when your done"

There was no deliberation about the positive and negatives, no arm twisting, Batman just completely backpeddled. I mean you could've had a scenario where Batman creates (hypothetically let's say it's towards the beginning of the film for sake of argument) the machine, Lucius quits, he realizes "I can't do this without him" and then reconsiders his positon. Then there is some actual catharsis, and some actual deliberation. Instead, as I say, it just ends up being the "God Machine" (almost literally). I kind of liked the machine, very interesting as far as comic book machines go, but I'd rather it have been fleshed out more rather than just crammed into the end.

 

[JDonaldD]

Like he said: "Beautiful, isn't it?". Also, like the other poster says, it's delivered so confidently like "I don't give a sh** what you think, this f***ing thing is my masterpiece".

Even if he acts contradictory, it didn't take much for him to backpeddle such an emphatic statement.

"Beautiful, isn't it?"
"...blah blah, I'm quiting"
"Oh, well, ya'know, I don't like it that much, eh, just destroy it when your done"

There was no deliberation about the positive and negatives, no arm twisting, Batman just completely backpeddled. I mean you could've had a scenario where Batman creates (hypothetically let's say it's towards the beginning of the film for sake of argument) the machine, Lucius quits, he realizes "I can't do this without him" and then reconsiders his positon. Then there is some actual catharsis, and some actual deliberation. Instead, as I say, it just ends up being the "God Machine" (almost literally). I kind of liked the machine, very interesting as far as comic book machines go, but I'd rather it have been fleshed out more rather than just crammed into the end.

Well, he apparently built it with the intention of destroying it at some point. There doesn't really seem much time to deliberate and in the context of the movie, we're meant to see Batman bending his rules to the point of breaking and the sonar machine represents that.