The Dark Knight Rises The TDKR General Discussion & Speculation Thread - Part 43

[The_Raganork]

Consider This:

What if Gotham doesn't need Batman anymore? Would you want him to die then from lack of purpose? or continue to be Batman even though he has no purpose?

 

[Mako]

I thought it was confirmed that Nolan/Thomas were signed on as producers for the reboot?

They are, but not as writers as far as I know.

 

[Greens]

Consider This:

What if Gotham doesn't need Batman anymore? Would you want him to die then from lack of purpose? or continue to be Batman even though he has no purpose?

Or what if it is revealed to the public that Batman is Bruce?

 

[Boom]

Consider This:

What if Gotham doesn't need Batman anymore? Would you want him to die then from lack of purpose? or continue to be Batman even though he has no purpose?

There will always be crime.

 

[Nevincer]

I'd rather him die than retire.

That's how much I hate the idea of him calling it quits.

That was my mindset at first. However, I've warmed up to it after much contemplation. I can see why the rumors are pointing in that direction.

I'll never understand why anyone wants to see that. Especially after TDK's message of him always needing to be Batman.

That's how Batman should be. He's an outlet for Bruce's emotional demons.

The way I see it, as much as it's true to the comics it's also a grim prospect for Bruce to be trapped with these duties for all his life. If you truly empathized with the character, wouldn't you be happy for him to, in spite of all the odds, to find that escape he's searching for? With the idea of it going forward eight years into the future and showing all the toll this has taken on him, I'm starting to find it appropriate that Bruce's faith be rewarded, and that the day comes when Bruce doesn't need Batman like Rachel hoped, but wasn't certain of. I think if the character is really going to 'rise', he needs to be finally set free from these shackles, because these aren't the comics, Bruce is well and truly mortal.

I missed Gill? Damnit!

Not a big deal, he wasn't really answering questions. He probably knows so much now he couldn't even begin to peep about it

 

[gugumugats]

"You either die a hero, or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain."

Bruce retires = downer ending

Bruce dies as Batman = downer ending.

 

[The_Raganork]

There will always be crime.

It's a deeper issue than that. Bruce didn't sign up to be Batman because there was simple crime in Gotham. It was bigger than that.

If Gotham was New York there wouldn't be a Batman. It was about Corruption and an overwhelming corruption.

What if that ends?

What is Batman to you, in these films? A savior? a helper? or a Crutch?

 

[rashad]

Not a big deal, he wasn't really answering questions. He probably knows so much now he couldn't even begin to peep about it

He was answering questions actually.

Originally Posted by gillberg2k1
Yep. Lots of cool stuff. What actually gets used is anybody's guess.

Lots of talk about the direction they want to go with the new trailer. Should be excellent/smoke the Avengers stuff.

 

[Nevincer]

Okay, cool, but what I really meant was he's holding back so Rag wasn't likely to get anything juicy out of him no matter how subtle his question was. Lol.

 

[Travesty]

Consider This:

What if Gotham doesn't need Batman anymore? Would you want him to die then from lack of purpose? or continue to be Batman even though he has no purpose?

Gotham always needs Batman. That's the beauty of it. It's always an endless battle that should never end in a nice, cushy, fairy tale ending. There's always work for him to do.

Or what if it is revealed to the public that Batman is Bruce?

That would be pretty bad, too.

 

[Boom]

It's a deeper issue than that. Bruce didn't sign up to be Batman because there was simple crime in Gotham. It was bigger than that.

If Gotham was New York there wouldn't be a Batman. It was about Corruption and an overwhelming corruption.

What if that ends?

What is Batman to you, in these films? A savior? a helper? or a Crutch?

Bruce Wayne needs Batman. It's the only thing he really knows. It's so deeply embedded in his person that to cast it aside would be killing off a massive part of who he is. I can appreciate that some people like the idea of Bruce getting to a place where he can cast aside this demon and live a normal life, but I prefer the great tragedy of a man who has essentially doomed himself to this existence. So long as people are being killed and orphans are being made, Batman has purpose. It may not be as flashy as "Batman saves the entire city from greed and corruption," but so long as there are lunatics running around, Batman has a reason to exist. That has always been his objective - to prevent the thing that happened to him from happening to anyone else. It's a fight he can never win, but it's one he fights nonetheless.

 

[Nevincer]

Lol, I love how a Batman death/retirement ending is accused of being a 'downer', and yet people persisting that Wayne lives this torturous life forever until his body kicks out is supposedly a happier/triumphant ending in contrast. Yeah, no.

 

[The Joker]

The way I see it, as much as it's true to the comics it's also a grim prospect for Bruce to be trapped with these duties for all his life. If you truly empathized with the character, wouldn't you be happy for him to, in spite of all the odds, to find that escape he's searching for?

Not in the slightest. No more than Peter Parker, Clark Kent, or anyone else who has all the same human qualities and emotions and feelings as Bruce Wayne who continue the good fight.

With the idea of it going forward eight years into the future and showing all the toll this has taken on him, I'm starting to find it appropriate that Bruce's faith be rewarded, and that the day comes when Bruce doesn't need Batman like Rachel hoped, but wasn't certain of.

Actually Rachel was sure the day would never come when he stopped being Batman, hence why she gave up waiting for him and moved on with Harvey.

The Joker claimed he and Batman were locked into a life long course of constant battle. TDK made it clear Batman was not something that was going to go away for Bruce.

I think if the character is really going to 'rise', he needs to be finally set free from these shackles, because these aren't the comics, Bruce is well and truly mortal.

Or he is vindicated of the burden of the Harvey Dent crimes and embraced once again by the city he's protecting.

What immortal qualities does the comic Bruce have that Bale's Bruce is missing in regards to his mission as Batman?

What is Batman to you, in these films? A savior? a helper? or a Crutch?

He's a silent guardian. A watchful protector. A Dark Knight

 

[Compi716]

There will always be crime.

Gotham always needs Batman. That's the beauty of it. It's always an endless battle that should never end in a nice, cushy, fairy tale ending. There's always work for him to do.

Yep. The great thing about Batman - and superhero universes in general - is that the world will ALWAYS need them. No matter how bright Gotham City seems, there is always something dark brewing underneath the service. Like Travesty says, that's the beauty of it. These are the principles the characters are built on, and to ignore that, to say that "we can do it better," is arrogant and honestly a little disrespectful.

 

[The_Raganork]

Gotham always needs Batman. That's the beauty of it. It's always an endless battle that should never end in a nice, cushy, fairy tale ending. There's always work for him to do.

This isn't an answer to my proposition. I said Imagine the case where Gotham no longer needs Batman.

Then you tell me: Gotham will always need Batman.

Imagine..

Bruce Wayne needs Batman. It's the only thing he really knows.

I agree with the second part especially in these films but isn't that a perfect reason to move on?

I can appreciate that some people like the idea of Bruce getting to a place where he can cast aside this demon and live a normal life, but I prefer the great tragedy of a man who has essentially doomed himself to this existence.

Just because he potentially moves on doesn't mean he has cast the demon aside. That;s always going to be a problem in his life, in his mind. I think it's interesting to see what would happen to Bruce if he let if stops being Batman to have time for Wayne. How does the man cope with that?

Isn't that an interesting story in itself? No one is saying that he retires, happily, fulfilled and the Batman thing is a non-thought. All that's being suggested is that he retires from Batman and I added the additional: Because Gotham no longer needs him.

So long as people are being killed and orphans are being made, Batman has purpose.

I don't known if this incarnation of Batman fits with that statement. That's what the cops are for.

It may not be a flashy as "Batman saves the entire city from greed and corruption," but so long as there are lunatics running around, Batman has a reason to exist.

But what if some dictator/liberator comes along and brings the lunatics to the surface, brings them all out and then destroys them all in an effort to hold Gotham as his own. A misguided sense of justice that ultimately does something Batman couldn't. A justice similar to that of an old mentor...

That has always been his objective - to prevent the thing that happened to him to happen to anyone else. It's a fight he can never win, but it's one he fights nonetheless.

What allowed Bruce to become Batman, for Martha and Thomas to die was a lack of responsibility in Gotham. Then Chill got away from corruption.

If the cops weren't outnumbered this could have been avoided

 

[DoomsdayApex]

Absolutely untrue. There are people who have carried anger and guilt issues to their graves. Some emotional scars never go away. Never heal. Some personal demons never get excised.

And most of those people suffer from a severe psychological disorder.

Granted, Bruce Wayne (along with various other vigilantes and heroes), himself, shows signs of a sociopath, but it differs from writer to writer. Take for instance, Batman Forever, Val's Bruce Wayne encountered an epiphany. He had arrived to the realization that his life was dedicated and consumed by retribution, rage and guilt. It wasn't, however, until Bruce fell in love with Dr. Chase that he had seen first-hand the 'monster' take over his life. Upon finally catching a glimpse of himself as this monster, Bruce wanted out of the hero life.

Another prime example would reside in Mask of the Phantasm (the infamous scene where Bruce is begging his parents for forgiveness that he had found happiness).

Hence why he never gets cured of his demons.

It's never really been fully explored, to be honest. Bruce's life is a tragedy following another tragedy. The moment he sees the light or finds peace or happiness, they're snatched away from him before he fully commits to redemption.

 

[Figs]

Sadly, as much as I don't care for Bruce retiring or dying, some of you seem to be forgetting this is Nolan's Batman and not the same Batman from the comics.

The Joker

Actually Rachel was sure the day would never come when he stopped being Batman, hence why she gave up waiting for him and moved on with Harvey.

The Joker claimed he and Batman were locked into a life long course of constant battle. TDK made it clear Batman was not something that was going to go away for Bruce."

I understand this, but just because Rachel felt Bruce would always need Batman and Joker saying that they were destined to do this forever doesn't mean Bruce himself wants to do it forever. Hell, in TDK look at Bruce's face when Harvey is saying "The Batman doesn't want to do this forever, how could he!", as well as Bruce wanting to quit to be with Rachel at some point in the film.

When it comes to the ending of TDK, just because he chose to be looked at as a murderer for the greater good, doesn't mean he will stay as Batman forever. That was just a way to keep the light shining in Gotham for a lot longer, even if he isn't around.

That's just how I feel about it at least.

 

[Milkman95]

There is no safe way to end this trilogy, that's actually what I'm most curious about, how Nolan ends it. I think it's guaranteed the public will find out Bruce is Batman - to me, if that's true, the only safe way to get out is the fake death scenario.....but then again, Nolan isn't one to pull from the source material directly.

Curious indeed.....

 

[Travesty]

This isn't an answer to my proposition. I said Imagine the case where Gotham no longer needs Batman.

Then you tell me: Gotham will always need Batman.

Imagine..

Imagine it? Ok, it would be a really bad Batman movie.

And before I hear the 'ol "this isn't the comics, mannnnn", if it does end up in a fairly tale ending, it would be a horrible way to end a good Batman trilogy.

 

[SpideyFan866]

The best way to end TDKR and this series is to leave the ending ambiguous in regards to Bruce Wayne/Batman.

Leave ambiguous as to whether or not he lives, dies, continues or retires. Having any of those as the definite ending will taint the ending in the eyes of some group of people, especially considering the state the character is expected to be in mentally and phsically going into and during this film.

A definite ending is not the way to go. Leave in Ambigous. If they can't do that, then for the love of all that is holy, DO NOT have John Blake/JGL's character become Batman.

 

[Boom]

I gotta head out for a little bit. Hopefully this conversation is still going on when I get back.

Hooray for thoughtful debates .

 

[Figs]

Imagine it? Ok, it would be a really bad Batman movie.

And before I hear the 'ol "this isn't the comics, mannnnn", if it does end up in a fairly tale ending, it would be a horrible way to end a good Batman trilogy.

You would think a more fairy tale ending would be if Bruce ended up with Selina at the end of the time and from what we've heard, that most likely isn't going to happen.

Think of the general audience, they will be the most shocked and affected by Batman retiring and or dying. To them he's this major pop culture icon and the thought of him going away would be out of this world.

Hell if we never heard these rumours we would have been shocked as all hell too. I don't see how him retiring could be considered a happy kind of ending.

 

[Kane52630]

I say it ends with Bruce waking up in the Bhutanese prison.

 

[Ramsay Snow]

"You have dream?"

 

[Rocafella]

But is a totally ambigous ending an 'epic conclusion'? I don't think so. Is it what Nolan had in mind when he said they'd had the story planned for 3 years? So I don't think there's any chance of that.

In Nolan's Batman, I don't think Bruce wants to do it forever, like Dent pointed out. He'll stop when he feels Gotham doesn't need Batman anymore. You can argue in depth about what that means however.