The Dark Knight Rises The TDKR General Discussion & Speculation Thread - Part 43

[SpideyFan866]

I expect a trailer to hit between end of April and the end of may. It will likely be the last.

I see the trailer (possibly) debuting alongside The Avengers but that's a bit of a stretch but not completely impossible considering TASM allegedly won't have a trailer alongside the Avengers outside of the one that hit in February.

 

[The Batman]

I'm interested in seeing if any has a counterpoint to Rags.

Because, IMO, he is absolutely right.

And honestly, unless Finger and Kane wrote somewhere that Batman would ALWAYS be Batman, him not retiring is NOT essential to the character.

What's essential is who he is and how he came to be. The man who saw his parents get killed and dresses up like a crimefighting bat as a response. ANYTHING else can be taken or left behind, as even comics history has shown.

 

[Naked Shia]

I like whatever happened to the caped crusader. But i do like the idea of Bruce finding closure as well. Both options can be great if done correctly.

 

[SpideyFan866]

I'm interested in seeing if any has a counterpoint to Rags.

Because, IMO, he is absolutely right.

And honestly, unless Finger and Kane wrote somewhere that Batman would ALWAYS be Batman, him not retiring is NOT essential to the character.

What's essential is who he is and how he came to be. The man who saw his parents get killed and dresses up like a crimefighting bat as a response. ANYTHING else can be taken or left behind.

Finger and Kane didn't write him that way and I'm sure something such as that would seem trivial at best to them during that time when the character had yet to reach its iconic status.

During the time since his creation, the fact/idea that Batman/Bruce Wayne will never stop until dead is something that has become a staple of the character.

 

[SpideyFan866]

I like whatever happened to the caped crusader. But i do like the idea of Bruce finding closure as well. Both options can be great if done correctly.

I think "Whatever Happened to the Caped Crusader" is a fine example of what the edning to TDKR could be.

While in the story, all the characters pretty much established he was dead, there was very much an ambiguity to it, like in the the Superman: "Whatever happened..." story. It also juggled the "Bruce or Batman or Both" story very well, something I feel this film needs to emphasize.

 

[The Batman]

Finger and Kane didn't write him that way and I'm sure something such as that would seem trivial at best to them during that time when the character had yet to reach its iconic status.

Kane and Finger didnt write him that way...because ultimately its not as much as a necessity as everyone thinks.

At best, this whole "I won't stop until I'm dead" has been around for some 40 years, which is only half the character's existence.

Frankly, if its not apart of the character's roots, its not a must have, IMO. Additions to the character are always welcome, but I'm not tearing my hair out if it won't be in the movie, because the characters roots have been captured already.

 

[The_Raganork]

Finger and Kane didn't write him that way and I'm sure something such as that would seem trivial at best to them during that time when the character had yet to reach its iconic status.

During the time since his creation, the fact/idea that Batman/Bruce Wayne will never stop until dead is something that has become a staple of the character.

But it's not a necessary course of action. Shunning the idea because it's never been done before is wrong.

If done one is basically saying that they don't want new Batman stories and outcomes. They want the status quo.

Because it skewed one way does not mean it cannot go another and still be Batman. I don't understand why keeping an open mind about this seems so wrong. You MIGHT find that Nolan has the chops to write something with that ending and be profound.

And if he fails, he fails but that doesn't mean the idea is inherently wrong. It just takes imagination and the drive to do something with the character that seems profound. If the character is treated with respect and the story is respected I don't see why the idea of retiring would fail

 

[Gianakin_]

I think "Whatever Happened to the Caped Crusader" is a fine example of what the edning to TDKR could be.

While in the story, all the characters pretty much established he was dead, there was very much an ambiguity to it, like in the the Superman: "Whatever happened..." story. It also juggled the "Bruce or Batman or Both" story very well, something I feel this film needs to emphasize.

WHttCC is my absolute favorite Batman story. If it's ever turned in to a movie (succesfully) it's doomed to fail and at the same time become one my top 5 flicks.

 

[SpideyFan866]

Kane and Finger didnt write him that way...because ultimately its not as much as a necessity as everyone thinks.

At best, this whole "I won't stop until I'm dead" has been around for some 40 years, which is only half the character's existence.

Frankly, if its not apart of the character's roots, its not a must have, IMO. Additions to the character are always welcome, but I'm not tearing my hair out if it won't be in the movie, because the characters roots have been captured already.

But it's not a necessary course of action. Shunning the idea because it's never been done before is wrong.

If done one is basically saying that they don't want new Batman stories and outcomes. They want the status quo.

Because it skewed one way does not mean it cannot go another and still be Batman. I don't understand why keeping an open mind about this seems so wrong. You MIGHT find that Nolan has the chops to write something with that ending and be profound.

And if he fails, he fails but that doesn't mean the idea is inherently wrong. It just takes imagination and the drive to do something with the character that seems profound. If the character is treated with respect and the story is respected I don't see why the idea of retiring would fail

I agree that that mentality is not necessarily needed but I think it should be portrayed.

Throughout all of comics, many characters have some trait that was not they didn't have in the beginning but now have that has become a staple of the character.

Wolverine for example, the Weapon X/Department H backstory did not always exist but it was introduced in time and is now a staple of the character; something that can be abandoned. Now yes, Wolverine is an extreme example considering it his origin but its the same principle.

The "will he ever stop or be able to stop" part of the Batman story is as important as him having a cowl. It is a part of the Bruce Wayne story that needs to be touched upon.

 

[The Batman]

IMO, the problem isnt the question of "Will he ever stop?"

The problem is thinking "He will never, ever stop. EVER." is the ONLY answer to the question.

That type of thinking leads to character stagnation.

 

[SpideyFan866]

WHttCC is my absolute favorite Batman story. If it's ever turned in to a movie (succesfully) it's doomed to fail and at the same time become one my top 5 flicks.

If was done on film, it would have to be the final film in a series.

 

[The_Raganork]

I agree that that mentality is not necessarily needed but I think it should be portrayed.

You are subject to fault though. As long as you admit that retirement could work I'm fine. I'm not saying people need to love it I'm saying people need to accept that in the schema of Batman as well as this universe it's totally possible and functional.

Throughout all of comics, many characters have some trait that was not they didn't have in the beginning but now have that has become a staple of the character.

By the same token the fact that that trait came to be was the work of a creative entity who took that leap.

Retirement is the same kind of leap, it's doing something with the character that (maybe) has never been done before. You'll never know unless you try.

Wolverine for example, the Weapon X/Department H backstory did not always exist but it was introduced in time and is now a staple of the character; something that can be abandoned. Now yes, Wolverine is an extreme example considering it his origin but its the same principle.

And if someone wrote a new origins for Wolverine that was grand and amazing, I'd be just as happy to accept that. I'm not stuck in what has been done before just because it's universally accepted.

Taking risk is why these characters are so popular to begin with. Now is not the time to insist we stop taking risk with them because the status quo for 40 odd years has been this particular thing. Every so often we need someone to take what we love and turn it on it's head so we can enjoy the character in new facets.

Him retiring is equal to Batman: Year One in terms of risk. It's taking something we know and doing something new with it. We can't just say "No, it'll suck" because we don't like it and haven't seen it done before.

T

he "will he ever stop or be able to stop" part of the Batman story is as important as him having a cowl. It is a part of the Bruce Wayne story that needs to be touched upon.

The question is important and the question is in these films. The answer is what is being debated here. What if they answer: "Yes, he can stop"

My goodness this would be something new and would show us something great!

If the answer is always: "No, he'll never stop' then why the hell are we seeing these films? We know how it's going to end.

Months ago this debate was Can Batman die and people said no, he can't die and he can't retire.

So what do people want? They want to go into these films knowing exactly what's going to happen? He's going to be successful and live and be batman forever! Well, ok?

In this finite world I'd love if Nolan took the risk and had him die or Retire but if he continues being Batman that's great too. The drive of the film is not knowing which one will happen.

 

[The_Raganork]

IMO, the problem isnt the question of "Will he ever stop?"

The problem is thinking "He will never, ever stop. EVER." is the ONLY answer to the question.

That type of thinking leads to character stagnation.

 

[SpideyFan866]

IMO, the problem isnt the question of "Will he ever stop?"

The problem is thinking "He will never, ever stop. EVER." is the ONLY answer to the question.

That type of thinking leads to character stagnation.

Agreed.. I don't think that is the answer to the question but I think the question needs to be asked, not necessarily answered, but asked.

 

[SpideyFan866]

You are subject to fault though. As long as you admit that retirement could work I'm fine. I'm not saying people need to love it I'm saying people need to accept that in the schema of Batman as well as this universe it's totally possible and functional.



By the same token the fact that that trait came to be was the work of a creative entity who took that leap.

Retirement is the same kind of leap, it's doing something with the character that (maybe) has never been done before. You'll never know unless you try.



And if someone wrote a new origins for Wolverine that was grand and amazing, I'd be just as happy to accept that. I'm not stuck in what has been done before just because it's universally accepted.

Taking risk is why these characters are so popular to begin with. Now is not the time to insist we stop taking risk with them because the status quo for 40 odd years has been this particular thing. Every so often we need someone to take what we love and turn it on it's head so we can enjoy the character in new facets.

Him retiring is equal to Batman: Year One in terms of risk. It's taking something we know and doing something new with it. We can't just say "No, it'll suck" because we don't like it and haven't seen it done before.

T

The question is important and the question is in these films. The answer is what is being debated here. What if they answer: "Yes, he can stop"

My goodness this would be something new and would show us something great!

If the answer is always: "No, he'll never stop' then why the hell are we seeing these films? We know how it's going to end.

Months ago this debate was Can Batman die and people said no, he can't die and he can't retire.

So what do people want? They want to go into these films knowing exactly what's going to happen? He's going to be successful and live and be batman forever! Well, ok?

In this finite world I'd love if Nolan took the risk and had him die or Retire but if he continues being Batman that's great to. The drive of the film is not knowing which one will happen.

I believe Batman can retire, especially in the finite world the Chris Nolan has created and I agree that people have changed their opinions on the subject to the point where it has become somewhat tireseome.

 

[SpideyFan866]

In this finite world I'd love if Nolan took the risk and had him die or Retire but if he continues being Batman that's great too. The drive of the film is not knowing which one will happen.

BTW, that pretty somes up how I feel.

Either way, I'm fine but the question which needs to be asked. Not necesarily answered definitively (like I said, it can be left ambiguous, which is best IMO), but asked.

 

[The_Raganork]

BTW, that pretty somes up how I feel.

Either way, I'm fine but the question which needs to be asked. Not necesarily answered definitively (like I said, it can be left ambiguous, which is best IMO), but asked.

Cool.

The question has been asked though. That's part of the subtext in TDK and undoubtedly in TDKR. The whole idea of the Batman having to return seems to be bringing the question up.

The question of "How long will be Batman" has been kind of building up since BB, TDK flirts with the possibility of soon and then snatches it away.

What I think more people need to realize is that these are Bruce Wayne films more than they are Batman films. While the individual films deal with some great Batman issues but the truth is the underlying question the entire time is: "Can Bruce handle this? Is this too much? Is he going to be ok?" These are films about the effect of Batman on the man Bruce Wayne, so the will he go on forever question is implicit in each story as his goal in the last two films is not infinite.

With Rachel's character and death we are forced reexamine where Bruce can go. She told him not to rely on her for a normal life and it's pretty apparent that's exactly what he does. With her gone the rest of TDK may be about stopping Joker and Harvey on the surface but deeper it's totally about "What does Bruce do now. How will he react after he takes the cowl off?"

These examinations of Bruce rather than Batman are going to really define TDKR and the question of retirement and Bruce being able to live a normal life is paramount in these films in a lot of ways that question is more important than him completing his goal as Batman.

Though I suspect both will be answered in TDKR and in some unconventional ways.

 

[SpideyFan866]

Cool.

The question has been asked though. That's part of the subtext in TDK and undoubtedly in TDKR. The whole idea of the Batman having to return seems to be bringing the question up.

The question of "How long will be Batman" has been kind of building up since BB, TDK flirts with the possibility of soon and then snatches it away.

What I think more people need to realize is that these are Bruce Wayne films more than they are Batman films. While the individual films deal with some great Batman issues but the truth is the underlying question the entire time is: "Can Bruce handle this? Is this too much? Is he going to be ok?" These are films about the effect of Batman on the man Bruce Wayne, so the will he go on forever question is implicit in each story as his goal in the last two films is not infinite.

With Rachel's character and death we are forced reexamine where Bruce can go. She told him not to rely on her for a normal life and it's pretty apparent that's exactly what he does. With her gone the rest of TDK may be about stopping Joker and Harvey on the surface but deeper it's totally about "What does Bruce do now. How will he react after he takes the cowl off?"

These examinations of Bruce rather than Batman are going to really define TDKR and the question of retirement and Bruce being able to live a normal life is paramount in these films in a lot of ways that question is more important than him completing his goal as Batman.

Though I suspect both will be answered in TDKR and in some unconventional ways.

Agreed.

 

[Gianakin_]

If was done on film, it would have to be the final film in a series.

It's too abstract to become part of a blockbuster series. It would never be easy to market to the audience. I hope I'll be proven wrong one day, though.

 

[KRIM]

I think when dealing with a character's philosophy as complex and grey as Batman's, with a society and issue just as complex and grey, there's really no concrete way of labeling his character as "cynical" or not.

This conversation deals with philosophies of a person, perspectives, morality, and society... this whole debate is a matter of opinion.

I don't think what we were commenting on has anything to do with opinion. It's a matter of defining what a position was as it is presented in the story.

Acknowledging what Batman did is irrespective of opinion. People can agree or disagree with how he he did it, but it is what it is.

 

[SpideyFan866]

It's too abstract to become part of a blockbuster series. It would never be easy to market to the audience. I hope I'll be proven wrong one day, though.

I hope so too!

I also would like to se What Ever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow on screen but that is a whole other ballpark.

 

[Diemtay]

I don't think what we were commenting on has anything to do with opinion. It's a matter of defining what a position was as it is presented in the story.

Acknowledging what Batman did is irrespective of opinion. People can agree or disagree with how he he did it, but it is what it is.

Cynicism is a person's persective on life. It's a very grey subject, and you both have different opinions on what defines cynicism, so it's impossible to come to any conclusion on whether or not Batman's choice was cynical or not, lol.

 

[Nevincer]

I'll do the honors.

 

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