The Walking Dead The Walking Dead Season 3 Episode 16 "Welcome to the Tombs" Discussion Thread

[Sakuraba]

Why does it feel like you're always looking for an argument in this thread?

If I like something I'll say I like it, I've been riding this show's bandwagon for the last six or seven episodes. When someone said this or that about why they didn't like episodes, I'd do my best to go point by point addressing their complaints, instead of the usual terse and un detailed reply that they would normally receive from some in this forum.

When I don't like an episode or don't understand fan reaction to a scene, I'll state my opinion on the matter, and I'll do my best to be detailed for discussion. I didn't like the way the shooting scene was directed or Herschel's reaction to it. Convince me otherwise, ignore it, whatever allows you to deal with it

 

[HighFivingMF]

There were only 2 shooters at the prison, and they scared governor's whole army away. Pretty pathetic in my opinion.

I expected Martinez to blow up Glenn and Maggie with his war machine rather than running away with the crowd. So this meme makes perfect sense. Pretty pathetic episode anyways.

I don't think Martinez or Shupert ran? Governor made them go after the army when they ran. I could be wrong though, but he killed everyone who ran but not Martinez or Shupert.

They were loyal, the rest weren't. If Merle, Crowley, Tim, and Gargulio were still around, they'd probably be OK too.

 

[Darthphere]

About the scene with Carl, something else to think about which I can't even say the writers had in mind was the first episode of The Walking Dead. The circumstances which got Rick shot and in the hospital. That could have been running through Carl's mind as well.

 

[danoyse]

The gun wasnt down. The gun was in his hand, finger inside the trigger guard, approaching Carl, how is that the appearance of a man surrendering?

Before Rick mentioned anything about Carl saying the guy drew first, Herschel was already all over Carl's case with the assumptive BS I quoted previously.

Yeah, Carl has a hard line philosophy like Shane, my whole thing is that he was right to shoot that guy and Herschel was speaking like a damn fool about what happened. This is the same guy that was going shrug his shoulders and say aw shucks when Rick was going to hang Randall in his barn?

The only matters I'm addressing here are that a) Carl was totally justified to kill Jody, and b) Herschel should have protected Carl instead of forcing a kid to make that decision and then NOT give a completely one-sided and misleading account of the shooting. Herschel lying is no better than Carl's lies.

And it's clear that you weren't paying attention to either scene and missed the entire point of what happened.

The kid was running away, and ran right into Carl's group. His finger was not on the trigger, the gun was lowered, and he had a hand up saying "Don't shoot!" I just watched that scene again, that's exactly what happened. It's not up for debate.

But then he hesitated, forcing Carl to make the choice to shoot him. Whether or not Herschel should have shot him instead is completely irrelevant to what happened. The kid may have about to try something, he may have just hesitated because he was scared, but we'll never know because Carl killed him. I don't think Carl was wrong, but the story he gave Rick was a complete line of BS.

"I did my job, I took out one of the Governor's soldiers!", is what he told Rick. Because that sounds a lot better than saying he shot a kid who may or may not have been surrendering. Then he insisted the kid drew on them? BS. That kid never drew on them.

I don't blame Carl for shooting him, because the kid gave him no choice. But showing no remorse and making up lies was dangerous. Herschel may have been more convinced the kid would surrender, and angrier at Carl's actions because of it, but he was absolutely right to tell Rick what really happened.

 

[Evelisse]

And it's clear that you weren't paying attention to either scene and missed the entire point of what happened.

The kid was running away, and ran right into Carl's group. His finger was not on the trigger, the gun was lowered, and he had a hand up saying "Don't shoot!" I just watched that scene again, that's exactly what happened. It's not up for debate.

But then he hesitated, forcing Carl to make the choice to shoot him. Whether or not Herschel should have shot him instead is completely irrelevant to what happened. The kid may have about to try something, he may have just hesitated because he was scared, but we'll never know because Carl killed him. I don't think Carl was wrong, but the story he gave Rick was a complete line of BS.

"I did my job, I took out one of the Governor's soldiers!", is what he told Rick. Because that sounds a lot better than saying he shot a kid who may or may not have been surrendering. Then he insisted the kid drew on them? BS. That kid never drew on them.

I don't blame Carl for shooting him, because the kid gave him no choice. But showing no remorse and making up lies was dangerous. Herschel may have been more convinced the kid would surrender, and angrier at Carl's actions because of it, but he was absolutely right to tell Rick what really happened.

Well can we agree the situation doesn't help Carl get Hershels approval to court Beth.

 

[Sakuraba]

And it's clear that you weren't paying attention to either scene and missed the entire point of what happened.

The kid was running away, and ran right into Carl's group. His finger was not on the trigger, the gun was lowered, and he had a hand up saying "Don't shoot!" I just watched that scene again, that's exactly what happened. It's not up for debate.

But then he hesitated, forcing Carl to make the choice to shoot him. Whether or not Herschel should have shot him instead is completely irrelevant to what happened. The kid may have about to try something, he may have just hesitated because he was scared, but we'll never know because Carl killed him. I don't think Carl was wrong, but the story he gave Rick was a complete line of BS.

"I did my job, I took out one of the Governor's soldiers!", is what he told Rick. Because that sounds a lot better than saying he shot a kid who may or may not have been surrendering. Then he insisted the kid drew on them? BS. That kid never drew on them.

I don't blame Carl for shooting him, because the kid gave him no choice. But showing no remorse and making up lies was dangerous. Herschel may have been more convinced the kid would surrender, and angrier at Carl's actions because of it, but he was absolutely right to tell Rick what really happened.

I think we agree on all accounts except for Herschel's incident report to Rick. (Me saying Herschel should have shot dude is more of less just my intrepretation of what a responsible adult that talks about protecting his children should have done. Nothing more. If it was Maggie or Beth that the guy was approaching would Herschel have done everything the same? I guess I just refuse to believe that Herschel is that naive.)

We know Carl takes a hard line against those outside the group. It would have been much better if Carl had not been totally justified in killing that guy. Carl didn't have to lie about it, and I know he's supposed to look thrilled that he got a kill, that he's romanticized the story, and we're supposed to be worried about where he's headed. That's understood.

Herschel's line about Carl having "every reason not to shoot" is at best a misleading account of what happened, at worst it's a lie. No better than Carl's fabrications and boasting. Two extreme views if you ask me.

 

[Sakuraba]

Well can we agree the situation doesn't help Carl get Hershels approval to court Beth.

Hmm, I mean it kind of needs to be addressed that Carl has entered his horndog years. That's got to be a major issue going on with him now. Maybe there's going to be a girl in the Woodbury group to take Sophia's role from the comics. Or Beth could be Carl's object of lust. Since Carl is now Shane and Herschel is Dale, it's only appropriate that those two should antagonize each other, why not throw a little Beth in there too.

 

[Infinity9999x]

We know Carl takes a hard line against those outside the group. It would have been much better if Carl had not been totally justified in killing that guy. Carl didn't have to lie about it, and I know he's supposed to look thrilled that he got a kill, that he's romanticized the story, and we're supposed to be worried about where he's headed. That's understood.

Herschel's line about Carl having "every reason not to shoot" is at best a misleading account of what happened, at worst it's a lie. No better than Carl's fabrications and boasting. Two extreme views if you ask me.

That's where I agree. They needed to do one of two things, either have Herschel dial back his assessment of the situation, because Carl did NOT have every reason not to shoot, or they should have depicted it in a way where Carl really did have every reason not to shoot. They still could have had Herschel be unnerved at Carl killing the boy, but at least have him acknowledge the fact that the boy wasn't putting his weapon down.

 

[Elevator Man]

Hershel's getting too soft.

 

[Kane52630]

A Night at the Woodbury

 

[DeGenerate10]

This is basically what the inside of my Tivo looked like at 9:00 last night...

I posted this on a friends Facebook yesterday and some guy got all butt hurt and rambled on about how Game of Thrones was better

 

[hellblazer103]

A Night at the Woodbury

I love this. t:

 

[Darthphere]

I posted this on a friends Facebook yesterday and some guy got all butt hurt and rambled on about how Game of Thrones was better

Meh. It's really a silly thing. They're not competing against each other. Just so happened that for one night people had to make a choice.

 

[Legion]

How can they be that weak? Survival of the fittest? If they survived a zombie apocalypse this long, you would really expect them to be better fighters.

No, they're not soldiers, but none of the main characters are. Judging by what the main characters have gone through (armies of walkers, people trying to kill them), everyone has had to fight.

Also it seemed like Glenn and Maggie weren't aiming to kill. Or they're really lousy shots.

What I want to know is were the only people capable of battle killed by Michonne and Merle? Let's not forget that civilian or not, people from Woodbury helped kill a whole platoon of trained soldiesr earlier this season. The Governor and Merle were not the only perpetrators...

It was also heavily implied that this was not the first time this kind of thing happened. Woodbury prospered because they were eliminating rival factions and taking their resources.

So yea...I find it hard to believe that by the end of the season there were only 3 people in Woodbury capable of doing some fighting...

I also thought is really dumb for ALL of the Woodbury team to go into the Prison corridors where they could have trapped and their numbers would have been less effective.

 

[Darthphere]

Because Michonne wiped out at least 4 of those guys that one episode and they were never replaced. Remember, Bizarro Glenn was one of them. Also the guys that were taken out during the Daryl rescue and finally by Merle. Those other people in Woodbury lived their lives with their heads up their asses and never wondered or cared where The Governor and his goons found all that weaponry and such.

 

[danoyse]

I posted this on a friends Facebook yesterday and some guy got all butt hurt and rambled on about how Game of Thrones was better

Oh, for god's sake...it's ok to like both shows!! I sure as hell do.

 

[danoyse]

A Night at the Woodbury

This is all kinds of awesome.

 

[DeGenerate10]

Oh, for god's sake...it's ok to like both shows!! I sure as hell do.

You know how some people are

 

[Thundercrack85]

What I want to know is were the only people capable of battle killed by Michonne and Merle? Let's not forget that civilian or not, people from Woodbury helped kill a whole platoon of trained soldiesr earlier this season. The Governor and Merle were not the only perpetrators...

It was also heavily implied that this was not the first time this kind of thing happened. Woodbury prospered because they were eliminating rival factions and taking their resources.

So yea...I find it hard to believe that by the end of the season there were only 3 people in Woodbury capable of doing some fighting...

I also thought is really dumb for ALL of the Woodbury team to go into the Prison corridors where they could have trapped and their numbers would have been less effective.

I think so. That would certainly explain why he got stuck with the b-team. But man did they suck.

Rick and co also killed some people when they attacked Woodbury, so, it does add up. But still.

 

[Elevator Man]

I've come to the conclusion that Martinez and the other guy (can't spell his name) left with the Gov. b/c they're both just as crazy as him. They have to be if they'll continue to work for an unstable man that just gunned down unarmed civilians that they knew and protected. Why didnt they kill the Gov. or took the truck and leave when they had the opportunity as he was killing the rest of them? They have to be crazy to continue to affiliate with him now that they know the kind of monster he is.

 

[Sakuraba]

Because Michonne wiped out at least 4 of those guys that one episode and they were never replaced. Remember, Bizarro Glenn was one of them. Also the guys that were taken out during the Daryl rescue and finally by Merle. Those other people in Woodbury lived their lives with their heads up their asses and never wondered or cared where The Governor and his goons found all that weaponry and such.

Pretty much. The show was working with a very compressed finale, so it's on the viewer to make these connections.

 

[Darthphere]

Yeah, that's at least a dozen of the heavies taken out before the finale and hence the need for The Governor to recruit all the able bodied folk.

 

[Evelisse]

Well I mean choices were slim for Martinez and Evil Tyreese, kill the Gov, go and hope Rick takes them in? Or try and make it on their lonesome. Maybe they felt Rick wouldn't have them after all they have done, who knows, they've backed the wrong horse. They have seen The Gov get into horrible situations and almost always walked away unscathed. So in the end, they are alive and if brought back next season, they still have the opportunity to be killed by the Gov yet.

 

[Blake II]

Well I mean choices were slim for Martinez and Evil Tyreese, kill the Gov, go and hope Rick takes them in? Or try and make it on their lonesome. Maybe they felt Rick wouldn't have them after all they have done, who knows, they've backed the wrong horse. They have seen The Gov get into horrible situations and almost always walked away unscathed. So in the end, they are alive and if brought back next season, they still have the opportunity to be killed by the Gov yet.

Why would you kill your leader? Especially when you have very similar personalities and beliefs? You really think Martinez, if he were the next governor, would not have prisoners and torture chambers? Those 2 are as crooked as the governor so I expected them to side with him. Ride or die friends right there, true soldiers.

 

[Thundercrack85]

What's the point in following the governor?

Again, the character loses most of his importance without anyone to govern. A dictator is nothing without an army / country / people.

Now he's just a crazy guy with a gun. What was that line from the Simpsons "gone mad without power?"

They should have shot him in the back of the head, and joined Rick's group like the others.