The Walking Dead The Walking Dead Season 3 Episode 16 "Welcome to the Tombs" Discussion Thread

[Lily Adler]

Interview with Dallas Roberts (Milton), explaining the two different death scenes that were shot:

http://insidetv.ew.com/2013/04/01/the-walking-dead-dallas-roberts-milton-andrea/



Definitely more gruesome than the ending that aired.

I actually liked that one more. It shows the Guvenah was intending to torture Andrea, but instead of tools use Milton as the ultimate torture device. I would have preferred Rick, Michonne and Darryl finding her as she slowly dies from her wounds and Rick puts her down.

Or, in a perfect world, Andrea would have been a good character and not the nuisance she was portrayed to be and didn't have to die.

 

[Agent Z]

This was a profoundly disappointing "finale". I know a lot of fans gave some leeway for the episodes leading up to the final showdown at the prison, and there were some great moments, but the "showdown" involved all of about three minutes and a handful of firecrackers.

That was it.

Did we get the Rick/Governor showdown? Did we get ANY showdown between our heroes and their evil counterparts?

Nothing. Nada. Zilch.

The Andrea/Milton stuff dragged, and the Carl turn was just annoying.

If this episode was in the middle of the season, it may have gotten a pass. For a season finale, it felt lazy and cheap. Imagine that, AMC being lazy and cheap with not only their top-rated show, but cable's top rated show!

Oddly enough, last season's finale was also a letdown, in comparison to the previous week's strong outing.

This third campaign started off so strong, and the majority of the episodes were good to great. The first half of the season was outstanding. Then it was like the second half wasn't sure how to stick the landing...or if it even wanted to.

 

[bluedragon77]

This was a profoundly disappointing "finale". I know a lot of fans gave some leeway for the episodes leading up to the final showdown at the prison, and there were some great moments, but the "showdown" involved all of about three minutes and a handful of firecrackers.

That was it.

Did we get the Rick/Governor showdown? Did we get ANY showdown between our heroes and their evil counterparts?

Nothing. Nada. Zilch.

The Andrea/Milton stuff dragged, and the Carl turn was just annoying.

If this episode was in the middle of the season, it may have gotten a pass. For a season finale, it felt lazy and cheap. Imagine that, AMC being lazy and cheap with not only their top-rated show, but cable's top rated show!

Oddly enough, last season's finale was also a letdown, in comparison to the previous week's strong outing.

This third campaign started off so strong, and the majority of the episodes were good to great. The first half of the season was outstanding. Then it was like the second half wasn't sure how to stick the landing...or if it even wanted to.

no way, season 2 finale was the best episode for me it was nonstop action from beginning to end, then the bombshell at the end, it was perfect.. least in my opinion. how was the season 2 finale a let down? compared to season 3 finale it was a million times better..

 

[Agent Z]

no way, season 2 finale was the best episode for me it was nonstop action from beginning to end, then the bombshell at the end, it was perfect.. least in my opinion. how was the season 2 finale a let down? compared to season 3 finale it was a million times better..

I'll qualify this...

The Season Two finale was a letdown from it's prior episode, but it was still a very good episode. We went from "Great" to "Very Good". No shame there, but still a step down.

The Season Three finale was a huge letdown. Much, much more of a letdown than the Season Two finale.

However, with the respective, and pivotal, Shane and Merle episodes each season, the finales to follow just seemed to pale in comparison.

 

[JJJ's Ulcer]

This is basically what the inside of my Tivo looked like at 9:00 last night...

Sorry, but GoT s3 premiere >>>>> Walking Dead s3 finale

Not even close, sadly.

 

[bluedragon77]

I'll qualify this...

The Season Two finale was a letdown from it's prior episode, but it was still a very good episode. We went from "Great" to "Very Good". No shame there, but still a step down.

The Season Three finale was a huge letdown. Much, much more of a letdown than the Season Two finale.

However, with the respective, and pivotal, Shane and Merle episodes each season, the finales to follow just seemed to pale in comparison.

this season finale really has me worried for season 4.. its getting harder to defend this show.. its my fave show on tv right now but there are definitly some flaws in it..

 

[Agent Z]

this season finale really has me worried for season 4.. its getting harder to defend this show.. its my fave show on tv right now but there are definitly some flaws in it..

I'm concerned too. What is so frustrating is that the talent is consistently everywhere on the show, in front of and behind the camera, except in the writing...which is so up and down. This is what kills some of the fans who have stuck with the show, because they have seen (been mercilessly-teased with) what great writing can do when paired up with these actors and directing crews.

 

[Darthphere]

Sorry, but GoT s3 premiere >>>>> Walking Dead s3 finale

Not even close, sadly.

Ratings wise however, and yes I know HBO is an evil corporation only helped by the more evil cable companies and their bundling practices and voodoo.

 

[danoyse]

There were only 2 shooters at the prison, and they scared governor's whole army away. Pretty pathetic in my opinion.

I expected Martinez to blow up Glenn and Maggie with his war machine rather than running away with the crowd. So this meme makes perfect sense. Pretty pathetic episode anyways.

Except that they're not an army. They were civilians, most of which had probably only ever used a gun to shoot walkers, and had no experience in combat. They were being tear-gassed, shot at, and had walkers attacking them. Of course they ran. They had no idea what they were doing.

The only reason the Governor went was to get them to turn around and come back.

 

[Schlosser85]

Woodbury did put out a pretty sad showing, but as has been pointed out, and as I think some people are missing, they're just random civilians that The Governor tried to whip into a makeshift army.

They've been living an incredibly easy, luxurious life in Woodbury in comparison to how battle-hardened Rick's group is. They're not used to roughing it.

I do really kind of want to know where the hell The Governor went though. Why wouldn't he go back to Woodbury? He couldn't have known at that point that Rick and co. were coming there.

 

[danoyse]

And I've heard a lot of complaints that the people left were "just" seniors and children, but the Governor abandoned them there, without the resources to keep the place safe. When Tyrese said he'd stay behind to protect the others, the Governor thanked him like he was one of his soldiers, and understood the importance of keeping his people safe.

After his 'army' ran, he didn't care what happened to any of them.

 

[OB12]

And I've heard a lot of complaints that the people left were "just" seniors and children, but the Governor abandoned them there, without the resources to keep the place safe. When Tyrese said he'd stay behind to protect the others, the Governor thanked him like he was one of his soldiers, and understood the importance of keeping his people safe.

After his 'army' ran, he didn't care what happened to any of them.

I think what I really like about Morrissey's portrayal of the Governor is that you can almost see this reflection of his former self. I mean I really get the impression that this guy lived a very mundane life with all of the challenges and frustrations that come with it. This was a guy with aspirations that he could never fulfill because of various constraints. His sanity was kept in check by his wife and his daughter, but in a world where there are no legal consequences he has decided to aspire to be what he wanted to be before the outbreak. However, you can see when he is met with frustration in this new world, he totally loses it. He was frustrated by his people's refusal to go back to the prison and he simply does what he has always wanted to do when met with frustration. It will be interesting to see where his descent into madness has taken him.

 

[afan]

There were only 2 shooters at the prison, and they scared governor's whole army away. Pretty pathetic in my opinion.

I expected Martinez to blow up Glenn and Maggie with his war machine rather than running away with the crowd. So this meme makes perfect sense. Pretty pathetic episode anyways.

"Welcome to the Tombs".
Why I can concede it was a bit confusingly told.....there was I believe a plan afoot.....to lure the Governor's "army" into the tombs area...and then ambush them......complete with walkers......when they did exit the prison in some panic and confusion .......they were met with an effective crossfire.....and when they tried to fall back to the heavy caliber machine gun mounted on the jeep it did not work......was it saboutaged?.......Any ways given the success of the plan....a hasty retreat by the Governor's rag tag army was quite plausible.

 

[Thundercrack85]

How can they be that weak? Survival of the fittest? If they survived a zombie apocalypse this long, you would really expect them to be better fighters.

No, they're not soldiers, but none of the main characters are. Judging by what the main characters have gone through (armies of walkers, people trying to kill them), everyone has had to fight.

Also it seemed like Glenn and Maggie weren't aiming to kill. Or they're really lousy shots.

 

[Infinity9999x]

How can they be that weak? Survival of the fittest? If they survived a zombie apocalypse this long, you would really expect them to be better fighters.

No, they're not soldiers, but none of the main characters are. Judging by what the main characters have gone through (armies of walkers, people trying to kill them), everyone has had to fight.

Also it seemed like Glenn and Maggie weren't aiming to kill. Or they're really lousy shots.

That was the one issue I had. I get the Governor's people breaking because they're not soldiers, but when that one woman said "It was a massacre!" I was going..."Really? Because nobody died." I think it would have been handled better had they shown at least a few of the Woodbury crew to get mowed down.

 

[Schlosser85]

How can they be that weak? Survival of the fittest? If they survived a zombie apocalypse this long, you would really expect them to be better fighters.

No, they're not soldiers, but none of the main characters are. Judging by what the main characters have gone through (armies of walkers, people trying to kill them), everyone has had to fight.

Also it seemed like Glenn and Maggie weren't aiming to kill. Or they're really lousy shots.

Rick and his group have been on the run for long stretches of time. The people of Woodbury haven't.

 

[Tigress]

After what the Governor did to his own people,I really expected Martinez to step and shoot the son of *****. Or say or do something. Then I suppose his fear of retaliation and what the Gov. would think of as an act of betrayal might to do him.

 

[Sakuraba]

I've finally gotten around to watching the finale after being on a trip, and I want to talk about Carl first,

Carl shouldn't have had to shoot that kid because Herschel should have done it. Herschel had Carl's back, this kid is told clearly to drop his firearm, he keeps encroaching on Carl's position (who is a tiny boy compared to the Woodbury kid), Herschel should have shot him dead. Herschel's spiel to Rick was complete BS to me. I guess the show was trying to make Carl look like a hardass if not a cold blooded murderer, but I think the scene and sentiment was totally botched. Carl did everything right in that scene. You'd be a fool to trust a guy twice your size, who isn't following your instructions, who keeps advancing on you, who was just part of an assault team on your home. Carl did right.

 

[Sakuraba]

Andrea, well, I guess I get what they were trying to do with her. She got her wish that Woodbury and Rick came together, whatever. She needed to go because her character was stuck in quicksand, the more they tried to pull her out the further she sunk. It was a fine enough send off for her.

The Governor surviving is okay, I don't think it's mandatory for him to be killed. Sometimes living is a worse fate. I'm not sure what you can do with that character going forward. Some have mentioned him starting up another town, which would a rehashing of the storyline we just saw and it wouldn't really be feasible with him going off the deep end. Whatever happens with the character, hopefully we don't see him for a while or his storyline is wrapped up during the first half of season 4.

I'm going to give the finale a 5/10. It didn't work as a satisfying conclusion or a cliffhanger for season four. That's a dangerous middle zone that maybe killed some of the audience going forward. It was okay but nothing special. Rick's group should have paid some type of price for sticking around to take potshots. The fact that they weren't scathed at all and Glenn and Maggie had that awful "We did it!" moment was rather lame. The best part of this episode was Michonne, who's quickly becoming the best character on the show, and the Rick/Carl dynamic.

 

[danoyse]

I've finally gotten around to watching the finale after being on a trip, and I want to talk about Carl first,

Carl shouldn't have had to shoot that kid because Herschel should have done it. Herschel had Carl's back, this kid is told clearly to drop his firearm, he keeps encroaching on Carl's position (who is a tiny boy compared to the Woodbury kid), Herschel should have shot him dead. Herschel's spiel to Rick was complete BS to me. I guess the show was trying to make Carl look like a hardass if not a cold blooded murderer, but I think the scene and sentiment was totally botched. Carl did everything right in that scene. You'd be a fool to trust a guy twice your size, who isn't following your instructions, who keeps advancing on you, who was just part of an assault team on your home. Carl did right.

Herschel wouldn't have done it. It doesn't even make sense to think he should have been the one to do it. Carl was the one with the gun out, pointed at the kid. Herschel was behind Carl, he wouldn't have had a clear shot without risking hitting Carl.

Herschel's spiel wasn't BS. Carl saying that the kid drew on them was. That kid never drew on the them, he just waited too long to put down the gun and forced Carl to make that choice. And that was the kid's fault. But Carl trying to justify it by lying about what happened is the same kind of crap Shane pulled. The smartest thing Herschel did was call him out on it to Rick.

Even Carl's smackdown on Rick was BS.

Sure, Carl didn't kill the walker that killed Dale...but if Carl hadn't wandered off with a stolen gun and agitated it in the first place, it would have stayed stuck in the mud.

Lori died because Rick didn't kill Andrew? That's BS too. Lori died from a c-section that would have probably killed her even if they weren't trapped in a boiler room.

Rick should have killed the Governor then? If he had opened first during that meeting, Carl and Judith would most likely be orphans now, and so would Maggie and Beth. Then what happens?

He's got a ton of reasons to be mad at Rick. He's done a much better job caring for that baby than Rick ever has. But he's a thick-headed kid too. It's one thing to know that you were forced to make a terrible choice, it's another to not feel the slightest bit sorry about it.

 

[Sakuraba]

I'm only arguing about the shooting, the other stuff is up to interpretation.

I'm trying to justify Carl's action strictly for what it was, even though it obviously ran counter to what the show may have intended. Carl was totally justified in killing that guy. Dude even has his finger inside the trigger guard, Herschel should have killed him on spot as soon as he took one step toward Carl. That's not how a person surrendering behaves, you're not going to make aggressive moves like those.

Herschel had an extremely clear shot at Jody, Carl was in no way in his zone of fire. Herschel even pulled his firearm on dude, which you would never do if Carl is down range. Rewatch the scene.

Sure Carl's explanation was a lie, but he was probably shamed by Herschel's reaction into fabricating a story. Again, that's the show's poor execution of the storyline, because Carl has all of the evidence to justify the killing, but he's lying to make himself look like lil Shane because that's what we're supposed to believe by him shooting Jody. The thing is, he didn't need to lie about what happened to be Lil Shane because his little manifesto to Rick achieved that as you pointed out.

Herschel made up some dangerous assumptions about Jody "surrendering" and "he was giving up his weapon" and especially the statement that Carl "gunned that kid down". That was straight up assumptive and outright BS from Herschel and slanderous to a kid defending himself in a war zone.

I understand what the show was maybe trying to do, but the execution of that scene was terrible because Carl made the right decision, by the facts of the scene, whereas Herschel could have gotten him killed.

 

[danoyse]

The aftermath of the shooting is the point. Not about whether it should have been Herschel or Carl who did the shooting, because that part doesn't matter. It's what the shooting is turning Carl into that's the concern.

Yes, the kid moved too slow and forced Carl to make that choice. Herschel had every right to think the kid was surrendering, because that still could have been all he was trying to do. We'll never know, because Carl killed him. The Governor filled this kid's head with lies about the prison people being killers, it was clear his people were no soldiers, and I'm sure this kid was terrified and reluctant to drop the gun. Carl sure as hell wouldn't have been so quick to drop his if their roles were reversed.

Carl lied through his teeth about it to Rick. That kid never drew on them. The gun was down, he was holding up his other hand, and saying "Don't shoot!" His mistake was waiting too long to drop it, because it forced Carl to shoot him.

Carl showed up back in the prison practically boasting that he'd killed "one of the Governor's soldiers", and Herschel was damn right to point out that it was a kid who'd been running away.

 

[Sakuraba]

The gun wasnt down. The gun was in his hand, finger inside the trigger guard, approaching Carl, how is that the appearance of a man surrendering?

Before Rick mentioned anything about Carl saying the guy drew first, Herschel was already all over Carl's case with the assumptive BS I quoted previously.

Yeah, Carl has a hard line philosophy like Shane, my whole thing is that he was right to shoot that guy and Herschel was speaking like a damn fool about what happened. This is the same guy that was going shrug his shoulders and say aw shucks when Rick was going to hang Randall in his barn?

The only matters I'm addressing here are that a) Carl was totally justified to kill Jody, and b) Herschel should have protected Carl instead of forcing a kid to make that decision and then NOT give a completely one-sided and misleading account of the shooting. Herschel lying is no better than Carl's lies.

 

[Sawyer]

Why does it feel like you're always looking for an argument in this thread?

 

[Havok83]

This is hilaaaaaaarrriiiius

thanks for the laugh. That was truly the dumbest scene of the series