The Walking Dead The Walking Dead Season 4 Episode 14 "The Grove" Discussion Thread

[Lily Adler]

Just like Billy and Ben...and Carl but replaced with Carol.

Gawd this show even at its best is SO unoriginal. Look how they nearly blatantly rip-off this comic.

 

[Sawyer]

Oh you...

 

[BrollySupersj]

Welp, that was a downer.

 

[Lily Adler]

Oh you...

 

[Spider-Who?]

It's not that anyone is getting worked up but the causualness of cheering a child's death is not something you would expect to hear people happy over.

I think you're confusing the emotions (or rather, the expression of said emotions) toward fictional events with reality. While "emotions" are shared in reality and fiction, the concept and overall meaning is entirely different. Unlike reality, emotional reactions to fiction are free from the burden of consequence, so people are more comfortable feeling or saying things that would not be their normal reaction if facing the same event in reality.

People also tend to express their emotions in an archetypical way, much like most aspects of fiction are archetypical in nature. In other words, they express their feelings toward a fictitious character/situation in a stripped down, all encompassing manner...this is why people "hated" Skylar White in Breaking Bad - despite the fact that she was (mostly) innocent and trying to save her family, she was the foil to Walter's protagonist. By their nature, antagonists are most often (purposefully) written to incite hate and other negative emotions, so it was extremely easy for people to say that they hated Skylar, despite knowing that she was doing "good".

In a similar vein, people say that they're "happy" that Lizzie died because she fit the nemesis archetype - she was written not as a child, but a wolf in sheep's clothing; an predictable killer...she was a threat to other characters and therefore a threat to the viewers who like Carol and Co. "Happy" here is not directed at a child dying, but the themes represented by an antagonist being revealed and dealt with...it is relief that the enemy/threat - however unconventional - is gone. They're "happy" that Carol, Tyreese and Judith came out of the situation unharmed. They're "happy" that a major plot point was answered and resolved, allowing for the story to move forward. Lizzie's death is the center of all those points, and therefore people address that specifically when expressing their emotions toward the episode.

 

[Doctor Jones]

Which I'm sure some folks here will consider a negative against the comic book's positive.

Why go for emotion when you can go for pulpy badassery? **** your feels!

I think in this instance, it's one of the few times the show surpasses the comic.

 

[Kane52630]

 

[Kane52630]

For anyone playing TWD game...

 

[Sawyer]

 

[Neptune]

Finally, Lizzy is dead! It's a cause for celebration! Too bad her sister had to die too.

 

[Donut]

The simple reasoning is an annoying & dangerous character is dead & people are happy about it kid or not. If this was an adult people would not be whining about people being happy about it. So in other words an annoying character died & people are happy

 

[Midnight Black]

LOL....


Yeah, I think we've exhausted the should we be glad or not Lizzie a kid is dead. It's fiction, she sucked, it's a good thing she is gone the end lol. Those that keep saying, "well I can't understand why so many people are glad/happy cause it was a kid..." please realize that it's a fictional piece of literature but if you want to say it represents what would happen in real-life just be aware that the character was dangerous not only to her self, but to everyone around her. She killer her own sister and saw NO problem with that whatsoever. She wasn't evil, she just couldn't comprehend evil/bad actions. Which for me personally I'm not so sure which is worse.

And before some poster comes on here and says, "who are you the forum police?" Please note that I am not and we can keep this discussion going however long as wanted. However, I don't think the subject really is all that important where people have to write paragraphs on it or say people should feel some type of way about a fictional character kid or not lol.

 

[danoyse]

For anyone playing TWD game...

 

[danoyse]

Teelie and Spider-Who, quit sniping at each other.

 

[the dmg]

This was a very powerful episode.

 

[Kane52630]

 

[Spider-Who?]

LOL....
Yeah, I think we've exhausted the should we be glad or not Lizzie a kid is dead. It's fiction, she sucked, it's a good thing she is gone the end lol. Those that keep saying, "well I can't understand why so many people are glad/happy cause it was a kid..." please realize that it's a fictional piece of literature but if you want to say it represents what would happen in real-life just be aware that the character was dangerous not only to her self, but to everyone around her. She killer her own sister and saw NO problem with that whatsoever. She wasn't evil, she just couldn't comprehend evil/bad actions. Which for me personally I'm not so sure which is worse.

And before some poster comes on here and says, "who are you the forum police?" Please note that I am not and we can keep this discussion going however long as wanted. However, I don't think the subject really is all that important where people have to write paragraphs on it or say people should feel some type of way about a fictional character kid or not lol.

Personally, I think it's interesting how people react to fiction and all the ways they can confuse those reactions with reality...not just in terms of misinterpreting others' reactions like illustrated in this thread, but also the blurring of the fiction/reality boundary in general, like the aforementioned issue with Breaking Bad: people who hated Skylar began sending hate mail and death threats to the actress for things her character "did". But you're correct: not much more can be said in regards to this episode specifically, lest it's interpreted as further sniping/beating a dead horse; any general discussion on the topic is for another thread.

t: That's fantastic. My friends and I actually joked about Carl being behind the deer again during that scene.

 

[danoyse]

Personally, I think it's interesting how people react to fiction and all the ways they can confuse those reactions with reality...not just in terms of misinterpreting others' reactions like illustrated in this thread, but also the blurring of the fiction/reality boundary in general, like the aforementioned issue with Breaking Bad: people who hated Skylar began sending hate mail and death threats to the actress for things her character "did". But you're correct: not much more can be said in regards to this episode specifically, lest it's interpreted as further sniping/beating a dead horse; any general discussion on the topic is for another thread.

I don't think the issue is not understanding the difference between fiction and reality. Of course everyone understands that these are fictional characters. Honestly, the issue is more that anyone cheering on the death of Lizzie, clearly missed the entire point of the episode and doesn't understand this discussion at all.

Yes, she was crazy and dangerous, and they needed to kill her. But it wasn't a good thing, it was awful that they were forced to do that. This wasn't the Governor, who chose to be what he was. This was a very disturbed, sick child, who they couldn't help. In the old world, she would have been institutionalized, not put down and buried in a stranger's backyard, and certainly not by someone who'd already lost her own child.

If your only reaction to it was cheering on that the kid is dead, you simply didn't get what the story was that they were trying to tell. It has nothing to do with not being able to tell reality from fiction.

 

[Spider-Who?]

I don't think the issue is not understanding the difference between fiction and reality. Of course everyone understands that these are fictional characters. Honestly, the issue is more that anyone cheering on the death of Lizzie, clearly missed the entire point of the episode and doesn't understand this discussion at all.

Yes, she was crazy and dangerous, and they needed to kill her. But it wasn't a good thing, it was awful that they were forced to do that. This wasn't the Governor, who chose to be what he was. This was a very disturbed, sick child, who they couldn't help. In the old world, she would have been institutionalized, not put down and buried in a stranger's backyard, and certainly not by someone who'd already lost her own child.

If your only reaction to it was cheering on that the kid is dead, you simply didn't get what the story was that they were trying to tell. It has nothing to do with not being able to tell reality from fiction.

I never said I cheered for her death, nor have I seen anyone "cheer" for it here. Read my first post on this topic. What you are calling "cheering for Lizzie's death" is YOUR misinterpretation of other people expressing relief in the resolution to a plot point, the death of the character being the summary of that conflict.

 

[danoyse]

I never said I cheered for her death, nor have I seen anyone "cheer" for it here. Read my first post on this topic. What you are calling "cheering for Lizzie's death" is YOUR misinterpretation of other people expressing relief in the resolution to a plot point, the death of the character being the summary of that conflict.

I never said *you* did. Although apparently you didn't even understand my post, and for some reason feel a need to belabor a point you haven't seemed able to grasp for this entire discussion.

 

[Schlosser85]

I never said I cheered for her death, nor have I seen anyone "cheer" for it here. Read my first post on this topic. What you are calling "cheering for Lizzie's death" is YOUR misinterpretation of other people expressing relief in the resolution to a plot point, the death of the character being the summary of that conflict.

Could your posts be any more condescending? Or laborious?

 

[Spider-Who?]

I never said *you* did. Although apparently you didn't even understand my post, and for some reason feel a need to belabor a point you haven't seemed able to grasp for this entire discussion.

You're upset that people are saying they are "glad" Lizzie is dead, when you feel that they should be upset that a child died, by the forced hand of an adult. People saying they're glad about the death of a character does not negate their understanding of the larger issue.

Could your posts be any more condescending? Or laborious?

Considering I'm not trying to be condescending, I'd guess the answer to your question is "yes." Honestly, though I'd expect more tact from moderators; my posts doesn't call for this aggression. I'm just trying to give explanation to a mindset that a select few seem to find offensive. But really, if you guys are so set on being offended, fine, that's your right. I don't care anymore. I'm done.

 

[danoyse]

You're upset that people are saying they are "glad" Lizzie is dead, when you feel that they should be upset that a child died, by the forced hand of an adult. People saying they're glad about the death of a character does not negate their understanding of the larger issue.

Me? I'm not upset. Like I've said repeatedly, I just think that anyone who does think that the character's death on the show was something to cheer about simply lacked the maturity or comprehension skills to understand the episode.

Considering I'm not trying to be condescending, I'd guess the answer to your question is "yes." Honestly, though I'd expect more tact from moderators; my posts doesn't call for this aggression. I'm just trying to give explanation to a mindset that a select few seem to find offensive. But really, if you guys are so set on being offended, fine, that's your right. I don't care anymore. I'm done.

Yeah, you're really trying to be condescending. Not succeeding at it very well, either, since you continue to drag this on and not getting anywhere with it...

 

[Spider-Who?]

Like I've said repeatedly, I just think that anyone who does think that the character's death on the show was something to cheer about simply lacked the maturity or comprehension skills to understand the episode.

And you still continue to miss my point.

Yeah, you're really trying to be condescending. Not succeeding at it very well, either...

Being condescending was the furthest thing from my mind; like I said earlier, I find the topic interesting, so because of that I was not too concerned with brevity. Of course, I ALSO find it interesting that the two people pulling the "condescending card" have either brought nothing to the conversation but an attack (Schlosser), or claim that anyone who disagrees with you isn’t mature/intelligent enough to understand the episode. So, we have moderators insulting people and then turn around and call ME condescending, when all I am doing is trying to explain that there is more to people’s thoughts on the episode then their simplified expressions toward Lizzie’s fate. Yes, how patronizing of me.

...since you continue to drag this on and not getting anywhere with it...

I’m not trying to drag anything out. In fact, I even said that there was nothing else to say on the topic and was going to leave it alone – at which point you and Schlosser felt the need to continue the conversation (or more accurately, attack me with ridiculous accusations). Feel free to reply, but I’m not bothering with this anymore, it’s well past the point of absurdity.

 

[Ghostvirus]

This was pretty darn good. The end was very Of Mice & Men. Thought that was pretty cool.