It would be cool if Cena did turn at WrestleMania by using a weapon to beat The Rock. If they turn Cena, they have to do Punk/Cena again with the roles reversed.
Its the biggest reason I'd like to see him turn. It offers a whole new dynamic and gives their feud a shot in the arm.
Originally Posted by LuisTX85
Not for the IWC But for casuals this will be the new Hogan turning moment in wrestling
Originally Posted by LuisTX85
Correction..Only IWC people are expecting or thinking Cena might turn and so for us it wouldn't be too much of a shock
I don't know about that. I think even some of the idiots out there can see that its at least being TEASED. You'd have to be blind not to see some of that. With Hogan they never had HIM tease his turn as hard so it was probably more shocking. The clues to Hogans turn were all in what the Outsiders said and the fact that Hogan hadn't been around as much before BATB. Plus...Cena's no Hogan on the great hero scale. I think to the younger kids it might be akin to Hogan turning but the the older casual fans not so much.
Originally Posted by Antman
Well that doesn't really matter, does it? I mean WWE, much like the comics industry, has done everything. A Cena heel turn is fresh in the only way that matters. Cena's lame ass character is retooled.
Yeah I get whats being said. The IDEA of a heel turn isn't fresh but for Cena, specifically, it is. He hasn't been a heel in almost a decade and since he's been the face of the company he's never been a heel. Of course thats one reason they might not turn him. That and the fact that they are teasing it so hard. That makes me think the might
NOT do it. Its too obvious at this point. Then again maybe they will. They've gone the obvious way before.
Originally Posted by Slushy
My main gripe with Helmley being World Heavyweight Champion was he overstayed his welcome as the top guy. He had the title and cut promos for too long. He also should've lost the title to RVD or Booker. Another thing I hated was him winning the belt back at New Years Revolution 2005, which was a complete troll move. Man, it was The Apocalypse watching RAW back then. It felt like the dark, depressing days never seem to end.
On the bright side, I enjoyed his Blueblood Game hybrid during The Reign Of Doom.
Just another thing with him wanting to play Horsemen. I had to laugh because he'd shaved and even looked like he was getting his hair done at a salon or something. He was really trying to be more Flairesque but he could never be as consistant. He wasn't even the best wrestler in the company at the time. With Flair you could usually make that claim when he was in his prime.
I just got sick of HHH. He got overexposed. It was all about him all the time. If his matches had been incredible while he annoyingly hung on to the belt I might have been more entertained but he turned in some real sh**. His match with Steiner at the Rumble was AWFUL. Hurt me eyes bad.
Its the one thing I'll agree on Bret Hart with when it comes to his critiques of HHH. Bret was far more consistant in terms of quality. Triple H wasn't.
Originally Posted by LuisTX85
I was/am a Trips mark..But I sure was pissed when he didn't put over&drop the world title to Booker T/Scott Steiner nor Goldberg.
I didn't give a sh** about Steiner not being put over. By that point he didn't deserve it. But for HHH to beat Booker T at Mania the way he did was disgusting.
They could have at least had Booker win by DQ or beat HHH's a** after the match to save some face if it was about HHH working main events with Goldberg later. With Goldberg I always felt that between his attitude and Vince and HHH's egos they were never going to REALLY put him over proper. Sure he beat Rock and won the belt from HHH but it never felt quite right. In the end it was pride being put ahead of business. Bill may not have been commited for the long term and I understand any hesitation that arose from that but he was still a bigger draw than HHH EVER was and Vince should have been a bit more willing to put him over right. Their feud never felt as top quality as it should have been.
Originally Posted by Hunter Rider
That oldschool heel faction sounds like it would be a lot of fun, but if Heyman were to create a new Dangerous Alliance I could see Cesaro fulfilling a mix of the Rude and Double A roles, but the key really is to switch his gimmick from Frenchie Martin to the focus on his beastly power and Thesz grappling throwback skills, a wrestling machine type character.
Totally agree. He might have the best mix of raw power and mat wrestling ability of anyone on the roster today. He should be hyped up as a superior in ring talent. The classic mix he brings to the table should be his selling point.
Triple H's reasoning for this is he felt RVD lacked the ability on the mic to carry a main event feud and also lacked dedication with his laid back attitude, in truth I always agreed with him on that call.
Thats why I was always on the fence with an RVD push to the top back then. He had the face heat with the audience and the awe factor in the ring but I just didn't think he had the other tools to be a long term champion. When it came down to it Booker or Goldberg were better options to me. Steiner wasn't even in the mix for me.
Look at that beast, the most incredible athletic specimen I've ever seen in the wrestling business, to book him to lose without a majorly beneficial business reason is madness.
Thats how I feel too. His mix of speed, agility, size, and power is pretty much unmatched. Even now. And he has that aura of a badass. Just because a guy is big doesn't mean he always has it (Big E).
Brock Lesnar is a commodity. A rare one. If they are going to use him it should be wisely. And now that he has some actual tough guy cred as a shoot fighter? Forget it. He shouldn't be jobbing to second tier has beens.
Originally Posted by Antman
I think it was done well but it was ultimately a bad decision. Austin was not in an early 90's Hogan situation or a current Cena situation. The audience didn't take to it like they should have.
Yeah it just wasn't what the people wanted to see. They wanted the badass rebel not some guy who schmoozed up Vince McMahon. It just didn't ring true even if Austin had to cheat to beat the Rock. Even if he turned on the audience. I think he was in a tough spot because they knew just a heel turn wouldn't do it because people would cheer him anyway. So he had to be the kind of guy and the kind of alliance that would legit piss people off. But still a lot of people didn't want it.
Originally Posted by Hunter Rider
Austin had no reason to believe he couldn't beat The Rock as he'd beaten him every time they had fought, so the idea he felt he needed to make a deal with a man he despised was illogical.
From Vince's point of view Austin as champ was worse then The Rock and he had no reason to help Austin as instead he could have just set things up for his son in law to get the belt off Rock if that is what he wanted.
I think you're right. As a whole it didn't make any sense. With ALL of the McMahons resources why did they NEED to align with Austin? Are people telling me Vince McMahon had no other way to get his way? He could have put an army behind Triple H to wear the Rock down. He could have put a bounty on him. The McMahons MAKE the rules...on the spot sometimes. How many times have we seen that? They could have put Rock into a no win scenario. Triple H was also at his peak. Austin wasn't. Hunter would have stood a better chance physically. As far as history McMahon hated Austin far more than he hated Rock. You'd thinkt he idea of teaming with him would make the bile rise up in his throat.
I can believe Austin losing a step and being desperate enough to cheat to win but should the desire have been THAT strong since he'd already beat Rock at the big show? It was more about having to prove he still had it after injuries and time off but even still...the alliance with McMahon just didn't ring true. And like HR said he'd already come out on top over the Rock just months before. At his core Austin aligns with no one. He would have turned on Vince as soon as he helped him win the belt not stayed aligned with him.
Compare Hogans heel turn and Booby Heenans reaction in '96. After years of hating Hogan and trying to take the belt off him why would he suddenly turn on a dime and start kissing his a**? He'd still f***ing hate Hogans guts and his ego would force him to say "I told you so" once Hogan showed his true black and white colors. Heenan being pro Hogan wouldn't have been organic and Austin with McMahon didn't feel organic either.
Its something they actually get with Triple H now. After all th bad sh** he's done people never should see him as a saint when he's a babyface and they don't. Even he admitted what he ALWAYS is at his core.
When Austin joned McMahon he came off as a weak desperate coward and deep down he shouldn't be that. Cold blooded and selfish? Yes. Weak? No.
Every face or heel turn should be driven from whats happening naturally. Hogans turn took off because deep down it was ALWAYS about him...even as a face. And a lot of the fans really had given up on him and stopped buying into his character.
Originally Posted by The Sage
Thinking about it, one of the things I loved about Stone Cold Steve Austin is that he always made the WWE Championship feel like a big deal. That nothing was above it. He said often that if you weren't in the business to hold the title, then you have no reason to be in the business at all.
Even in the Punk/Austin interview for the WWE '13 promotion, he put the title over by eyeballing it repeatedly. It didn't feel like a prop when he was going after it.
That's what made his heel turn work to me. Austin was obsessed with getting it back, to the point that he was willing to join forces with his hated enemy to do it. That belt meant so much that old rivalries were ignored.
Agreed. Its one thing I hate about Rock vs Cena II. Rock just wants to win to prove his superiority once again. Cena's main goal is to beat The Rock. The WWE title is a DISTANT second when at the very least it should be a close second behind their personal animosity towards one another. The title run during this build hasn't meant sh** thus the title doesn't mean sh**. Like you said things like Austin looking at that belt and talking about coming back just to take it from Punk? That puts the belt over HUUUUGE.
Even Triple H, being the glory hogging d*ckbag that he is, always put that belt before everything. I think he'd f*** it if he could.
Originally Posted by The Sage
Taker's not a pushover and has been a locker room leader for a long time. He's respected and has his own share of political clout. Probably one of the few Triple H couldn't touch.
Agreed. Takers the one guy who has too much stroke and too much respect from everyone for Triple H to f*** with. Who knows how things would be if Taker hadn't been around to keep a guy like HHH in check at times.
Taker is not only arguably the best big man ever, a great performer, but he was more loyal and dependable than ANYONE during the ups and downs of the company over the last 20 years. He was always a guy Vince knew he could trust to put on good matches and draw interest.
Between that and his longevity he's been Vince's most sucessful personal creation. Vince might be a crazy old coot but even he still admires that kind of loyalty and he knows the value of the man AND the gimmick. He's the one guy Triple H couldn't touch even if he wanted to.
WWE might push HHH and The Undertaker as equal but opposing pillars of the company sometimes but deep down Vince knows the Undertaker is on a level all his own as far as active current performers. He was taking world titles off Hulk Hogan while Paul was probably mopping up piss at Killer Kowalski's training camp.
Originally Posted by Slushy
Triple H's problem is he's so concerned about looking strong that he fails to make stars. He put over Batista and Cena and that's it. Yes, he jobbed to Goldberg, That One Guy, and Lesnar, but those guys were already established. He really should've lost to Jeff Hardy at No Mercy 2008 and Randy Orton at Wrestlemania 25. The sad part is he didn't even lose clean to Sheamus and that's supposed to be his buddy.
I think you've nailed it. He's been a mark for looking good even when he didn't need too. People call Bret a mark but sometimes I think HHH is the biggest mark IN the business.
The Sheamus job to HHH and Orton jobs annoyed me but the bullsh** with Jeff Hardy was the worst of all. If he was going to spend ALL that time working with Jeff Hardy and talk about how Jeff couldn't beat him or win the big one why would they bring Edge in at the last minute to do the job? Triple H should have been the one to lose the title to Jeff Hardy one on one. Thats what the story was about. Proving HHH wrong.
If Triple H had issues with Hardys drug use I get that but he still didn't mind working with him to siphon off his face heat and keep himself relevant.
In a perfect world, Shawn Michaels would come out of retirement to face Brock Lesnar in his comeback match to get revenge.
Or Shawn comes back to face The Rock at WM XXX. I don't even care how.
Originally Posted by ImWithTeamConan
I could see HBK costing HHH the match in a "I'm trying to protect you cause you're gonna hurt yourself if you keep going so I'm going to cost you the match and therefore your career before you get severely injured" kind of way leading to HHH vs. HBK at Wrestlemania XXX.
This actually makes sense as a way to build up a final HHH vs HBK match. Or Shawn helps HHH win and HHH gets mad because he wanted to do it on his own. He takes it the wrong way and the tension between them builds.
[QUOTE
]...........with HHH somehow winning the match and ending his career on the biggest stage of all-time.[/QUOTE]
Lol...sadly this also makes sense. I could see HHH making sure he WINS his last match. Its bad enough he'd be selfish enough to have his buddy come back so it could be the best match possible. if Shawn does come out of retirement it should be against someone like Rock, Punk, or Lesnar.
The other idea of Shawn being the only guy Tripe H would be willing to lose to is even worse. Its just a waste all around and only builds Triple H's ego.
Originally Posted by venom892
I really hope Shawn stays steadfast in his belief that he should stay retired. I don't need to ever see HHH/HBK again. If HHH wants to retire next year he can do so by putting Punk over in a WWE title match.
Yeah if anyone should retire Triple H it should be CM Punk. Not Shawn Michaels. Not The Rock.
