BvS The Zack Snyder Validation Thread (big rant)

[Black Narcissus]

Nolan expected whatever filmmaker he hired to follow the script he co-wrote with David Goyer. He was hiring a director to point and shoot.

Nolan didn't co-write it.

 

[DA_Champion]

Nolan didn't co-write it.

He co-developed the story.

 

[Black Narcissus]

He co-developed the story.

Not the same.

And I thought he only brought Goyer to the top and gave his blessing, but that was just as far as he went.

Goyer mentioned how they were stuck on TDKR and he then pitched him his take on the character.

 

[DA_Champion]

Not the same.

And I thought he only brought Goyer to the top and gave his blessing, but that was just as far as he went.

Goyer mentioned how they were stuck on TDKR and he then pitched him his take on the character.

I don't know what went on behind the scenes. It may well be that Goyer did all the creative work and Nolan did all the lobbying work.

 

[sf2]

Might be the most egregious use of hyperbole I've ever read on these forums. By far.

Only way you could have made it any worse was to throw the word "rape" around instead.

sorry for the lack of vocabulary.
to set the thing right, I like MOS a lot. so Zack Snyder has my

i just wanna share my view why sometime people spend their time on the things / movies they hate.

 

[DA_Champion]

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

Why Zack Snyder is the Hero of Superhuman Cinema

Throughout history and mythology, there are generally about only four heroic archetypes. The unlikely hero, the hero who falls,the sacrificial hero, and the villain who becomes a hero (redemption).
Most stories are a celebration of the first type of hero. It’s the tortoise who beats the hare, the rabbit who outfoxes the fox, and the boy who slays the giant. Some are a blend of various archetypes. I would say that Shakespeare’s Romeo is an unlikely hero who loses his ideals for his vision of love, but ends up being a symbol of sacrifice for the redemption of both clans.
But that is quite the exception.

Heroism is most valued when heroes are absent. Ursula K LeGuin wrote a disturbing short story in the 1970s about a boy who has to be tortured and starved in order for a fictional city to thrive. The seeming moral quandary was whether or not to free the poor boy in Omelas. My question was whether to care at all about the fate of a city built on cruelty. It was one I wish I had asked in my philosophy class. But fear held me back from showing my true indignation.
It will not hold me back from writing this article.
Zack Snyder is the scapegoat of superhero cinema. Everything people hate about the comic book mythology on film tends to fall back on poor Snyder. But he is also a hero, because he dusts himself off, and tries again. His opponents raise the bar, not because they want the genre as a whole to succeed, but they want him to fail. “The acting is average.”
Well, are most movies in the superhero genre showcases for strong acting? If not, this is a highly selective criticism, and should be discarded immediately.

“This is soulless.”
Technology IS soulless. It cannot create life. This accusation has been leveled against complex CGI characters, stop motion puppets, and the medium of film itself.*

But technological progression is how movies connect with the younger generation. And they decide what becomes a classic, as they pass it down to their kids later in life.

“He’s a hack.” Anybody who’s been behind the camera working long shoots for over twenty years deserves some level of success. Even Michael Bay.

“Style over substance.” This is the laziest misappropriation of an ancient logical fallacy (based on strong words conveying weak ideas) I have ever seen. Film IS style. All the major old films were technological achievements as well as masterpieces of storytelling. Orson Wells watched John Ford’s groundbreaking Western Stagecoach 40 times to make sure Citizen Kane was a powerful cinematic achievement at the time of creation.

A visual style is a director’s fingerprints, while the substantial elements are in the script, and, at times, the images themselves. A director should not have tone himself down just to make sure the audience “gets it.”

Zack is damned if he does, damned if he doesn’t. If he clings too faithfully, he’s accused of lacking imagination. If he changes to supposed mythology, he’s accused of alteration of the characters. He can’t win, and he knows this.

But that’s okay. Because he isn’t fighting to win. He’s fighting for the progression of the genre on film.

In a world in which escapism within this genre is placed in a higher value than mythological storytelling, and “fun” is placed in a higher plane than heroism itself, this genre needs some films with demanding ideas. But (unlike some directors) he layers those ideas with action, drama, and character. And his visuals are unbeatable.

You can disagree. And that’s just fine. Film is art, and art always impacts people differently.

But don’t hate him for being an artist. If you must hate, hate on a case by case basis. But don’t hate him for being average. That’s lunacy in a nutshell.

But keep in mind, he’s now paired up with an Oscar winning screenwriter. He’ll go farther than ever before. And you won’t be able to stop him.


So, get ready for SnyderMan! He's DC's brightest hope.

Sources:

http://www.tcm.com/tcmdb/title/89/Citizen-Kane/articles.html
http://kottke.org/08/06/early-movie-reviews

http://www.comicon.com/ubb/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=259494

http://media.gunaxin.com/stop-motion-animation-sucks/65361

 

[DA_Champion]

Did you write that?

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

Yep. I was gonna write for WhatCulture, but they don't accept random submissions anymore

 

[TheNextNolan22]

WhatCulture didn't hire you, yet hired Vince Russo? Wuh????

 

[Mrs. Wayne]

Oh dude, that was a pretty cool read. You really have a passion for the Snyderman and I like that. Here's to hoping you're right and that if Snyder has good talent around him, this movie can do well.

 

[jfurioso]

What i really don´t understand, and nobody has been able to explain it to me, is why would someone spend so much time and energy discussing something they don´t like?

Was it Nietzsche who said that a man is better defined by what he hates than by what he loves?

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

Snyder loves heroes. That's why Watchmen was more heroic than its source. That's why MOS was all about broken heroes (when Goyers script didn't stand in the way)

300 is all about the unwinnable fight. So was Sucker Punch. And even DoD to an extent.

Wow. I think there's a theme going on there.

So DoJ will live up to its name, because Terrio wants a job, and Snyder wants to inspire. And at ComicCon, he already HAD

I expect DoJ to be about the redemption of Batman, as one of the many subplots that Terrio will expertly juggle.

And the haters..will pretend they never hated him win critics and audiences finally give him the acclaim he's been fighting for in his whole career.

 

[DA_Champion]

Snyder loves heroes. That's why Watchmen was more heroic than its source. That's why MOS was all about broken heroes (when Goyers script didn't stand in the way)

300 is all about the unwinnable fight. So was Sucker Punch. And even DoD to an extent.

Wow. I think there's a theme going on there.

So DoJ will live up to its name, because Terrio wants a job, and Snyder wants to inspire. And at ComicCon, he already HAD

I expect DoJ to be about the redemption of Batman, as one of the many subplots that Terrio will expertly juggle.

And the haters..will pretend they never hated him win critics and audiences finally give him the acclaim he's been fighting for in his whole career.

The tragic nature of heroism is listed as one of the major themes in his filmography on IMDB.

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

Snyder's kind of a tragic hero himself. He's the only one trying to keep up with the fanbase by reading the forums and going to the cons every time.

He's the one pausing between filming to give kids autographs and trying to meld in a world that seemingly hates him (as expressed with the lack of slo-mo in MOS). But he will win the genre, as his boldness will be compounded with Terrio's wit.

To me, it's the pockets of heroism in his movies that are inspiring. Silk Spectre saving the kids or Colonel Hardy starting a knife fight he knows he can't win. It's the brokeness of Rorshach as he knows he's confronting a god for the last time.

He's known as a filmmaker who doesn't care about the subtleties, but it's those moments that I think he does best. Killing Zod didn't kill Superman's innocence, just his ability to think of heroism in a "perfect" way.

The child of Clark (played by his son) is a better metaphor for Superman than any 'mighty' shot of that same hero. He's a child, who grew up with good parents. Not perfect parents, but ones who were good enough to love him anyway. No matter that Goyer probably wanted a "shock" moment. The scenes of love are still the scenes that work (which DG also wrote, to be fair).

 

[hafizbat]

I actually like Snyder a lot, despite my disappointment with MoS. He seems like a real down to Earth guy, who just wants to make good movies. He's a visual master; there's no one better in the game when it comes to making things look good. I really hope pairing him with Terrio will produce great results.

Goyer's the one I really don't like.

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

Neither do I.
Goyer is like a third rate Bryan Singer. His blow to MM is insane

 

[TheFlamingCoco]

I think all Terrio has to do is treat the comic characters as human characters, but more moral, for lack of a better world. His films have had a big cast, and he's great with snappy dialog.

 

[hafizbat]

Neither do I.
Goyer is like a third rate Bryan Singer. His blow to MM is insane

I have a pretty good feeling that Snyder wouldn't agree with Goyer's comments on MM.

 

[Krumm]

Yep. I was gonna write for WhatCulture, but they don't accept random submissions anymore

I'd count that as a blessing.

I've also gotten the vibe that they aren't the biggest Snyder fans (especially MOS) so who knows if they would've posted it.

 

[Chip Chipperson]

I think all Terrio has to do is treat the comic characters as human characters, but more moral, for lack of a better world. His films have had a big cast, and he's great with snappy dialog.

Yeah, with terrio I'm confident we're gonna get better lines than

"So you came back to die with your city? No, I came back to stop you."

And

"You're a monster Zod, and I'm going to stop you."

 

[DeadPresident]

The MoS line was weak, but I thought the TDKR's line was pretty fitting.

 

[WoodyROM]

I didn't have a problem with the MOS line, but I understand why others would. I think it was the way Cavill delivered it that sold it. At any rate, I do believe we'll be getting a higher quality of dialog than before, which is exciting.

 

[Jekecy]

The MoS line was weak, but I thought the TDKR's line was pretty fitting.

MOS was cliched, though the line at least made sense and Cavill made it work. In TDKR, it was just redundant. Of course Batman was there to stop him, and of course Batman didn't go there to die. Why even exclaim any of that? It only makes Batman look and sound stupid.

 

[CGNefarious]

Why Zack Snyder is the Hero of Superhuman Cinema

Throughout history and mythology, there are generally about only four heroic archetypes. The unlikely hero, the hero who falls,the sacrificial hero, and the villain who becomes a hero (redemption).
Most stories are a celebration of the first type of hero. It’s the tortoise who beats the hare, the rabbit who outfoxes the fox, and the boy who slays the giant. Some are a blend of various archetypes. I would say that Shakespeare’s Romeo is an unlikely hero who loses his ideals for his vision of love, but ends up being a symbol of sacrifice for the redemption of both clans.
But that is quite the exception.

Heroism is most valued when heroes are absent. Ursula K LeGuin wrote a disturbing short story in the 1970s about a boy who has to be tortured and starved in order for a fictional city to thrive. The seeming moral quandary was whether or not to free the poor boy in Omelas. My question was whether to care at all about the fate of a city built on cruelty. It was one I wish I had asked in my philosophy class. But fear held me back from showing my true indignation.
It will not hold me back from writing this article.
Zack Snyder is the scapegoat of superhero cinema. Everything people hate about the comic book mythology on film tends to fall back on poor Snyder. But he is also a hero, because he dusts himself off, and tries again. His opponents raise the bar, not because they want the genre as a whole to succeed, but they want him to fail. “The acting is average.”
Well, are most movies in the superhero genre showcases for strong acting? If not, this is a highly selective criticism, and should be discarded immediately.

“This is soulless.”
Technology IS soulless. It cannot create life. This accusation has been leveled against complex CGI characters, stop motion puppets, and the medium of film itself.*

But technological progression is how movies connect with the younger generation. And they decide what becomes a classic, as they pass it down to their kids later in life.

“He’s a hack.” Anybody who’s been behind the camera working long shoots for over twenty years deserves some level of success. Even Michael Bay.

“Style over substance.” This is the laziest misappropriation of an ancient logical fallacy (based on strong words conveying weak ideas) I have ever seen. Film IS style. All the major old films were technological achievements as well as masterpieces of storytelling. Orson Wells watched John Ford’s groundbreaking Western Stagecoach 40 times to make sure Citizen Kane was a powerful cinematic achievement at the time of creation.

A visual style is a director’s fingerprints, while the substantial elements are in the script, and, at times, the images themselves. A director should not have tone himself down just to make sure the audience “gets it.”

Zack is damned if he does, damned if he doesn’t. If he clings too faithfully, he’s accused of lacking imagination. If he changes to supposed mythology, he’s accused of alteration of the characters. He can’t win, and he knows this.

But that’s okay. Because he isn’t fighting to win. He’s fighting for the progression of the genre on film.

In a world in which escapism within this genre is placed in a higher value than mythological storytelling, and “fun” is placed in a higher plane than heroism itself, this genre needs some films with demanding ideas. But (unlike some directors) he layers those ideas with action, drama, and character. And his visuals are unbeatable.

You can disagree. And that’s just fine. Film is art, and art always impacts people differently.

But don’t hate him for being an artist. If you must hate, hate on a case by case basis. But don’t hate him for being average. That’s lunacy in a nutshell.

But keep in mind, he’s now paired up with an Oscar winning screenwriter. He’ll go farther than ever before. And you won’t be able to stop him.


So, get ready for SnyderMan! He's DC's brightest hope.

Sources:

http://www.tcm.com/tcmdb/title/89/Citizen-Kane/articles.html
http://kottke.org/08/06/early-movie-reviews

http://www.comicon.com/ubb/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=259494

http://media.gunaxin.com/stop-motion-animation-sucks/65361

This is pretty good. You should definitely find some site to write for, or maybe even consider starting a blog or something. It's rare to find articles that are both well written and well thought out. Besides, we need some good pro-Snyder bias to counter all the anti-Snyder bias out there.