Homecoming The Zendaya is possibly someone, maybe thread - Part 2

[BAMFsnikt]

technically, it is true that nothing has been "confirmed" about Zendaya playing MJ.

which is why I DO want some kind of official confirmation from Marvel or Sony.

Why, though? If their movie was supposedly spoiled, it still doesn't mean they owe us anything. It's like the kid who sees all of his Christmas gifts a month before Christmas and thinks he should get them early. If they do confirm Michelle is code for MJ, it will inevitably lead to questions of "why?" Should they have to give away plot points? Her identity is said to be wrapped up in the plot. It's a slippery slope.

Fact remains, all of this is wild, rampant speculation. If she is MJ, you have people almost positive of how the reveal will happen, or what the "Michelle" alias even means. For every weak scenario people throw out, there could just as easily be a twist which is handled well. People are automatically translating their displeasure with this casting into a lackluster script. Because "if they cast Zendaya as Mary Jane, the movie can't possibly be good."

They could just as easily have this "Michelle" thing be a running gag, where nobody knows her name...she's the random girl in school, who -- when you ask someone her name -- is said to be "Monica...Maria...no, er, Michelle. I think." So everyone calls her Michelle and she's not interested enough to correct you. And, since she might not be in any of your classes, you never hear a teacher call her name in roll. Then, at the end of the movie, she finally takes it upon herself to correct Peter with her name -- the "big moment." Maybe she dresses "alt" because she comes from a poor family, but would like to dress in more trendy clothes, had she the means. Maybe her big makeover isn't so much her selling out, but her getting the opportunity to become the "real" her. Yes, the ugly duckling/swan thing is a cliche, but Peter Parker, himself, is the ugly duckling/swan cliche. The geek who becomes a superhero.

If Zendaya turns out to be crap, she turns out to be crap. The issue here is that nobody is willing to give the benefit of the doubt. I'm all for speculating and picking details apart -- it's the fun part of being a part of a fandom before a movie comes out. This other stuff isn't fun. It's always easier to give something you love a chance...otherwise, what's the point in participating in any of this?

 

[spideyboy_1111]

That's fair, but it's a loaded issue. There's reasons why the same people who would be excited about Zendaya being MJ would also be opposed to her being Aaliyah. Pardon the pun, but it's not a "black and white" issue. It's a very loaded, very complex issue.

which is why they shouldn't be attacking fans of MJ and labeling them as racist when they just want the portrayal to actually look like the portrayal. They will use the excuse of "fictional vs non-fictional character" but does that really matter when it feels the same to the fanbase?

 

[BAMFsnikt]

which is why they shouldn't be attacking fans of MJ and labeling them as racist when they just want the portrayal to actually look like the portrayal. They will use the excuse of "fictional vs non-fictional character" but does that really matter when it feels the same to the fanbase?

Personally, I think instances of people being called out as "racist" are exaggerated. I think it's more frustration that many are labeling this casting as "politically correct b/s." Calling someone racist for disliking this casting choice is as obnoxious as calling someone a "social justice warrior" for arguing its merits. It's dismissive.

 

[X Knight]

Why, though? If their movie was supposedly spoiled, it still doesn't mean they owe us anything. It's like the kid who sees all of his Christmas gifts a month before Christmas and thinks he should get them early. If they do confirm Michelle is code for MJ, it will inevitably lead to questions of "why?" Should they have to give away plot points? Her identity is said to be wrapped up in the plot. It's a slippery slope.

Fact remains, all of this is wild, rampant speculation. If she is MJ, you have people almost positive of how the reveal will happen, or what the "Michelle" alias even means. For every weak scenario people throw out, there could just as easily be a twist which is handled well. People are automatically translating their displeasure with this casting into a lackluster script. Because "if they cast Zendaya as Mary Jane, the movie can't possibly be good."

They could just as easily have this "Michelle" thing be a running gag, where nobody knows her name...she's the random girl in school, who -- when you ask someone her name -- is said to be "Monica...Maria...no, er, Michelle. I think." So everyone calls her Michelle and she's not interested enough to correct you. And, since she might not be in any of your classes, you never hear a teacher call her name in roll. Then, at the end of the movie, she finally takes it upon herself to correct Peter with her name -- the "big moment." Maybe she dresses "alt" because she comes from a poor family, but would like to dress in more trendy clothes, had she the means. Maybe her big makeover isn't so much her selling out, but her getting the opportunity to become the "real" her. Yes, the ugly duckling/swan thing is a cliche, but Peter Parker, himself, is the ugly duckling/swan cliche. The geek who becomes a superhero.

If Zendaya turns out to be crap, she turns out to be crap. The issue here is that nobody is willing to give the benefit of the doubt. I'm all for speculating and picking details apart -- it's the fun part of being a part of a fandom before a movie comes out. This other stuff isn't fun. It's always easier to give something you love a chance...otherwise, what's the point in participating in any of this?

those are all valid points.

and I am willing to give Zendaya a chance. as will most of the other posters here.

however, when you see and hear stuff that concerns you, you have the right to start getting worried. And when people love something and are passionate about something and they feel that it is being taken in the wrong direction, they will be more vocal about it.

I'm more vocal about the changes to MJ because I care about the character. She's a character I've been familiar with for over 2 decades, across various forms of media. And across all those years and media, she has been portrayed in a fairly consistent manner in terms of looks and character.

Other characters that have been changed, like Kingpin, Ancient One, Aquaman, etc., I don't care as much. So, I'm not as bothered by those changes. However, I can certainly understand if others ARE bothered by those changes and I wouldn't complain about them voicing their displeasure.

 

[Moridin]

technically, it is true that nothing has been "confirmed" about Zendaya playing MJ.

which is why I DO want some kind of official confirmation from Marvel or Sony.

I'll try to summarise my perspective on all this.

El Mayimbe caught a "scoop" that Zendaya is playing Mary Jane. He's now with The Wrap so he has to go through certain steps before publishing an article that he didn't have to before. The main one being calling Marvel/Sony and saying:
EM -"I have info that Z is playing MJ. Do you have confirmation on this?"
Marvel/Sony - "No Comment".

Mayimbe takes this as confirmation because he's had other scoops, like Miles Morales being in Homecoming, that were "deaded" by the same process of calling Marvel/Sony.

But really the only thing that can be taken from that is Marvel/Sony don't want people knowing what character Z is playing. That's literally it, Marvel/Sony don't want it know who Z is playing. Anything further is speculation.

Now harryoscop replied to me a week ago after I asked for any other actual sources that supported that rumour (I hadn't had a chance to respond to it). One source was Vulture, which is a tabloid. The other was a Devin Faracci article. The thing is, Faraci doesn't actually support it, in fact he flat out says "Well, first things first - my sources aren't convinced she's "Mary Jane,""
http://birthmoviesdeath.com/2016/08/19/why-would-zendayas-spider-man-role-be-a-reveal

Variety, Deadline, THR, have not reported this rumur at all.

Some say, "well they drastically changed an iconic character in the Mandarin, so why not Mary Jane?".
Straight from Shane Black, neither he nor Marvel considered Mandarin an iconic character, so they went for it. Marvel then rolled back on it with "All Hail the King" after the backlash. MJ is obviously a far more iconic character than Mandarin, so it's hard for me to see them making such big changes.

So where I sit: There is absolutely no confirmation that Z is MJ. But Marvel/Sony clearly don't want people knowing who she's playing, so there's some sort of twist involving her character, and obviously so much speculation/controversy plays into obfuscating that, so they aren't going to confirm or deny who Z is playing.

Maybe she ends up as MJ, maybe not. Nothing is is remotely concrete right now.

 

[X Knight]

I'll try to summarise my perspective on all this.

El Mayimbe caught a "scoop" that Zendaya is playing Mary Jane. He's now with The Wrap so he has to go through certain steps before publishing an article that he didn't have to before. The main one being calling Marvel/Sony and saying:
EM -"I have info that Z is playing MJ. Do you have confirmation on this?"
Marvel/Sony - "No Comment".

Mayimbe takes this as confirmation because he's had other scoops, like Miles Morales being in Homecoming, that were "deaded" by the same process of calling Marvel/Sony.

But really the only thing that can be taken from that is Marvel/Sony don't want people knowing what character Z is playing. That's literally it, Marvel/Sony don't want it know who Z is playing. Anything further is speculation.

Now harryoscop replied to me a week ago after I asked for any other actual sources that supported that rumour (I hadn't had a chance to respond to it). One source was Vulture, which is a tabloid. The other was a Devin Faracci article. The thing is, Faraci doesn't actually support it, in fact he flat out says "Well, first things first - my sources aren't convinced she's "Mary Jane,""
http://birthmoviesdeath.com/2016/08/19/why-would-zendayas-spider-man-role-be-a-reveal

Variety, Deadline, THR, have not reported this rumur at all.

Some say, "well they drastically changed an iconic character in the Mandarin, so why not Mary Jane?".
Straight from Shane Black, neither he nor Marvel considered Mandarin an iconic character, so they went for it. Marvel then rolled back on it with "All Hail the King" after the backlash. MJ is obviously a far more iconic character than Mandarin, so it's hard for me to see them making such big changes.

So where I sit: There is absolutely no confirmation that Z is MJ. But Marvel/Sony clearly don't want people knowing who she's playing, so there's some sort of twist involving her character, and obviously so much speculation/controversy plays into obfuscating that, so they aren't going to confirm or deny who Z is playing.

Maybe she ends up as MJ, maybe not. Nothing is is remotely concrete right now.

great points.

 

[harryoscop]

I'll try to summarise my perspective on all this.

El Mayimbe caught a "scoop" that Zendaya is playing Mary Jane. He's now with The Wrap so he has to go through certain steps before publishing an article that he didn't have to before. The main one being calling Marvel/Sony and saying:
EM -"I have info that Z is playing MJ. Do you have confirmation on this?"
Marvel/Sony - "No Comment".

Mayimbe takes this as confirmation because he's had other scoops, like Miles Morales being in Homecoming, that were "deaded" by the same process of calling Marvel/Sony.

But really the only thing that can be taken from that is Marvel/Sony don't want people knowing what character Z is playing. That's literally it, Marvel/Sony don't want it know who Z is playing. Anything further is speculation.

Now harryoscop replied to me a week ago after I asked for any other actual sources that supported that rumour (I hadn't had a chance to respond to it). One source was Vulture, which is a tabloid. The other was a Devin Faracci article. The thing is, Faraci doesn't actually support it, in fact he flat out says "Well, first things first - my sources aren't convinced she's "Mary Jane,""
http://birthmoviesdeath.com/2016/08/19/why-would-zendayas-spider-man-role-be-a-reveal

Variety, Deadline, THR, have not reported this rumur at all.

Some say, "well they drastically changed an iconic character in the Mandarin, so why not Mary Jane?".
Straight from Shane Black, neither he nor Marvel considered Mandarin an iconic character, so they went for it. Marvel then rolled back on it with "All Hail the King" after the backlash. MJ is obviously a far more iconic character than Mandarin, so it's hard for me to see them making such big changes.

So where I sit: There is absolutely no confirmation that Z is MJ. But Marvel/Sony clearly don't want people knowing who she's playing, so there's some sort of twist involving her character, and obviously so much speculation/controversy plays into obfuscating that, so they aren't going to confirm or deny who Z is playing.

Maybe she ends up as MJ, maybe not. Nothing is is remotely concrete right now.

To be fair, he also said this in the article:

But I have been told in the past that she's playing "MJ," the abbreviation by which Mary Jane often goes. This means the name "Michelle" wouldn't be a lie, and that Marvel Studios wouldn't 100% be erasing Mary Jane's red hair; this is a twist on the character. So if Michelle's middle name begins with a J, you know this will be the cast

So his sources 50/50 support it because he's heard she goes by Michelle J____

 

[Dark Raven]

If she is Michelle J instead of Mary Jane, that will be a slap in the face. But then, maybe she won't be the actual "Mary Jane" of the comics. After all, it's not like other people can't have those same initials.

Eg: Michael Jackson, Michael Jordan, Mick Jagger.

Michael Caine's real name was Maurice Joseph Mickelwhite. He's MJ Mickelwhite.

It's entirely possible for Peter to meet two people named MJ.

 

[PeterBenParker]

Yeah, I definitely agree with that.

Even if we get a different Mary Jane, I'd still prefer her to be Mary Jane as opposed to Michele/Michelle J___, encompassing 'MJ'. On the flip-side, however, if they're already changing so much about the character (assumably), what good is the name in the end?

It's like how Walking Dead changed Paul 'Jesus' Monroe to Paul 'Jesus' Rovia because he's probably going to be different overall in terms of his CBCP. 'Jesus' is what he's typically known as anyway, and it could be argued Mary Jane is more known by her initials, so I'm just really mixed.

 

[Dark Raven]

But she's not only just known by her initials. She is known by Mary Jane just as much. It's just shortened to MJ affectionately. And it's not like those initials can just stand for anything, otherwise why not make her Manuela Jimenez?

 

[NinjaTurtleFan]

I'd hate for her to be Michelle Jane or simply MJ but not the MJ we know and love. I would prefer she is simply "Michelle", Michelle Gonzales (which a lot of you hate the idea of) or a new character by the name of Michelle and a non-J middle name or last name.

If she truly is Mary Jane Watson than I find the whole thing of hiding who she truly is to be a half-witted and poorly misguided attempt by Sony and Marvel. It also shows their fear and reluctance of simply stating, "Oh, hey, we decided to cast a biracial girl as Mary Jane Watson." By not putting forward that she is MJ and simply calling her "Michelle" and even hearing Jon Watts call her "Michelle" not to mention word that multiple scripts were written waffling around the idea of if they should indeed keep her Michelle or make her MJ, it doesn't look good for them.

I also hate the idea of "Michelle" being a cover name and they treat Mary Jane Watson like a Hannah Montana character. I would rather MJ be what she traditionally is/was in the comics. No gimmicks or clichés.

 

[X Knight]

I'd hate for her to be Michelle Jane or simply MJ but not the MJ we know and love. I would prefer she is simply "Michelle", Michelle Gonzales (which a lot of you hate the idea of) or a new character by the name of Michelle and a non-J middle name or last name.

If she truly is Mary Jane Watson than I find the whole thing of hiding who she truly is to be a half-witted and poorly misguided attempt by Sony and Marvel. It also shows their fear and reluctance of simply stating, "Oh, hey, we decided to cast a biracial girl as Mary Jane Watson." By not putting forward that she is MJ and simply calling her "Michelle" and even hearing Jon Watts call her "Michelle" not to mention word that multiple scripts were written waffling around the idea of if they should indeed keep her Michelle or make her MJ, it doesn't look good for them.

I also hate the idea of "Michelle" being a cover name and they treat Mary Jane Watson like a Hannah Montana character. I would rather MJ be what she traditionally is/was in the comics. No gimmicks or clichés.

I agree.

except the last part about the "Hannah Montana" scenario.

while not ideal, that scenario ( famous model trying to disguise herself at school ) is right now the only acceptable route for me that would explain the drastic change in look and appearance.

but yeah. I'd rather they not use any gimmicks or contrived story arcs. just let MJ be MJ from the comics.

 

[Kurenai]

which is why they shouldn't be attacking fans of MJ and labeling them as racist when they just want the portrayal to actually look like the portrayal. They will use the excuse of "fictional vs non-fictional character" but does that really matter when it feels the same to the fanbase?

People didn't want Z to be Aaliyah b/c of colorism, you know that thing that effects racial minorities, where they're taught the lighter you are (i.e the closer you are to white) the better you're position is and the more accepted you'll be.

Aaliyah was a brown skinned black women, and Hollywood has an issue of casting brown or dark skin black women in roles, especially as romantic love interests ...why, b/c of colorism and the idea that dark is masculine and light is feminine.

People being upset that a whole shade of women keep being erase to uphold a racist/sexist standard is in no way comparible to getting called a racist or a sexist or an ableist as a result of your or anyone else's unfiltered anger that may come across as ignorance.

~~

Addressing the "she's not black enough" comments that was made during the filming of Aaliyah, this is something biracials specially biracial blacks (since we're using this Aaliyah thing as an example) have to go through, being too black to be white and not black enough to be black, as well as the fact that there are people who see biracials as biracials and not as black, Asian or any other group, hell they don't even see them as being biracial and black or biracial and what-ever-racial-minority-they look-like. A lot of biracials go through an identity crisis as a result of their mix racial make up and how people react to them.

 

[Kurenai]

You want to know what I don't understand? They're calling this is a black MJ and that Zendaya is black. She is actually half black and half white. So, it makes just as much sense to say Zendaya is white, so we are getting a white MJ. So technically, they're only race changing one of MJ's parents, moreso than changing MJ's race. Just another way at looking at things.

In America (cause some peeps in here are not American) biracials are not a group of their own, biracials who look more like their minority parent will be treated as that minority. 1 drop rule is a thing that thrives.

So basically if someone is not fully white or isn't a white passing biracial like Wentworth Miller, no one cares what half you are, you don't count as white and you can't try out for roles that would go to a white actor, you can only go for minority or ambiguous.

 

[jaymes_e06]

In America (cause some peeps in here are not American) biracials are not a group of their own, biracials who look more like their minority parent will be treated as that minority. 1 drop rule is a thing that thrives.

So basically if someone is not fully white or isn't a white passing biracial like Wentworth Miller, no one cares what half you are, you don't count as white and you can't try out for roles that would go to a white actor, you can only go for minority or ambiguous.

Wtf are you even talking about?

 

[Kurenai]

Wtf are you even talking about?

Did you not read or are you having a hard time understanding what I wrote.

Zendaya is biracial and is technically white (just as she is technically black).

It basically means MJ's race didn't technically get racebent which is what the OP was pointing out, i.e the technicalies of it all.

Why doesn't it matter?

Because she doesn't look white and therefore is not white passing, which means all people see is a blinking red sign that says minority.

In other countries biracials are just biracial, they're not white or black, or asian, or anything else, they are just biracial. In America biracials are either black, asian or any other racial minority they're mixed with, never considered white unless they're white passing e.g Wentworth Miller.

All of that is to say how America views biracials is different than how people from other countries views them i.e the one drop rule has lasting effects.

There are some people from other countries who don't see Zendaya being cast as MJ as racebending, since Zendaya is half white, in comparison to how some Americans view Zendaya being MJ as racebending b/c despite being half white she physically doesn't look it.

Was that a more precise explanation for you or...

 

[spideyboy_1111]

Wtf are you even talking about?

It really is a thing in other countries... sometimes their class is even decided by it. As disturbing as that is.

He actually explained it well

 

[spideyboy_1111]

Personally, I think instances of people being called out as "racist" are exaggerated. I think it's more frustration that many are labeling this casting as "politically correct b/s." Calling someone racist for disliking this casting choice is as obnoxious as calling someone a "social justice warrior" for arguing its merits. It's dismissive.

Lol you haven't been viewing much social media have you?

 

[jaymes_e06]

Did you not read or are you having a hard time understanding what I wrote.

Zendaya is biracial and is technically white (just as she is technically black).

It basically means MJ's race didn't technically get racebent which is what the OP was pointing out, i.e the technicalies of it all.

Why doesn't it matter?

Because she doesn't look white and therefore is not white passing, which means all people see is a blinking red sign that says minority.

In other countries biracials are just biracial, they're not white or black, or asian, or anything else, they are just biracial. In America biracials are either black, asian or any other racial minority they're mixed with, never considered white unless they're white passing e.g Wentworth Miller.

All of that is to say how America views biracials is different than how people from other countries views them i.e the one drop rule has lasting effects.

There are some people from other countries who don't see Zendaya being cast as MJ as racebending, since Zendaya is half white, in comparison to how some Americans view Zendaya being MJ as racebending b/c despite being half white she physically doesn't look it.

Was that a more precise explanation for you or...

That was stating the obvious so I just wanted to make sure I was following as to why anyone would need to know that. The fact of the matter is MJ looks visually different than any other live action adaption or any other multimedia if Zendaya really is playing her.

Regardless of your opinions on race bending it it what it is but the vast majority know it to have changed from what they are used to. It is to be expected that some will not like this as humans generally dislike change.

It really is a thing in other countries... sometimes their class is even decided by it. As disturbing as that is.

He actually explained it well

Yeah I know what he/she is talking about I'm just trying to understand why it needed to be explained.

 

[Chesterfield]

MJ really gets around

Spoiler

Looks like MJ ditched Peter and was shown a lovely evening with King T'Challa

At least her shoes and lipstick are red.

 

[Spider-Gnome]

In America (cause some peeps in here are not American) biracials are not a group of their own, biracials who look more like their minority parent will be treated as that minority. 1 drop rule is a thing that thrives.

So basically if someone is not fully white or isn't a white passing biracial like Wentworth Miller, no one cares what half you are, you don't count as white and you can't try out for roles that would go to a white actor, you can only go for minority or ambiguous.

I understand what you are saying (and what you have been saying in your other posts) (sadly). Just trying to point out a bit of hypocrisy in the whole thing.

 

[X Knight]

MJ really gets around

Spoiler

Looks like MJ ditched Peter and was shown a lovely evening with King T'Challa

At least her shoes and lipstick are red.

heh. just like SSM MJ. she gets around.

 

[NinjaTurtleFan]

Still no red hair.

Can't call her Mary Jane Watson if she doesn't have red hair.

So, she's still Michelle.

 

[Angryfantasyfan]

Still no red hair.

Can't call her Mary Jane Watson if she doesn't have red hair.

So, she's still Michelle.

Did you make as many posts complaining about the redheaded Lois Lane in the DCEU?

 

[X Knight]

Did you make as many posts complaining about the redheaded Lois Lane in the DCEU?

to be fair, Lois has been portrayed with various hair colors throughout the years and throughout the various media.

sometimes she has black hair ( which is what I'm most used to ). other times she's a brunette. and there have been some instances where she is a ginger.

MJ, however, has consistently been portrayed with one hair color throughout all these years across different versions of the character and across different media. And that hair color is red.