The Dark Knight Things you noticed the second time

[Bats]

This doesn't make much sense. The Joker killed those people days before Dent went on his killing spree, so the public already knows that no public official is safe. Add in the fact that the Joker sent DNA evidence to the cops that implied he was going to kill Surillo and Loeb, the Joker cards at Surillo's murder scene, and the Joker call to the police to tell them about the two dead cops. There are way too many witnesses in the police force to shift the blame to Batman.

It actually makes more sense than the ones Dent "killed" or thought to have done so to for reasons I've stated before. Regarding shifting the blame to Batman, it's about Batman not bowing down to the demands of the Joker.

Those people could have survived if Batman took off his mask. He didn't. He "let 5 people die" (remember the interrogation scene dialog? (depending on how/when you look at it, Rachel & Brian Douglas might be interchangeable)). Covering up what Dent became is part of that so that the people of Gotham still have faith in the city. See what I mean?

 

[Brother Jack]

The city knows that Joker killed those people, he even announces that he's going to do it before he does. There's no way Batman could've officially taken the blame for them. Now Batman might still feel responsible for them, and in fact he does, but the only murders that are officially pinned on him are Two-Face's.

 

[BestGirl]

It actually makes more sense than the ones Dent "killed" or thought to have done so to for reasons I've stated before. Regarding shifting the blame to Batman, it's about Batman not bowing down to the demands of the Joker.

Why?

Those people could have survived if Batman took off his mask. He didn't. He "let 5 people die" (remember the interrogation scene dialog? (depending on how/when you look at it, Rachel & Brian Douglas might be interchangeable)). Covering up what Dent became is part of that so that the people of Gotham still have faith in the city. See what I mean?

How does taking the blame for Surillo's and the rest's deaths cover up for Harvey? He had nothing to do with those murders.

The city knows that Joker killed those people, he even announces that he's going to do it before he does. There's no way Batman could've officially taken the blame for them. Now Batman might still feel responsible for them, and in fact he does, but the only murders that are officially pinned on him are Two-Face's.

Exactly.

 

[Panthro]

Bruce's line to Dent about how he should know where his "jurisdiction ends"
I can't believe I didn't notice it before, this thinly veiled little "Rachel is my woman you're just a place holder while she waits for me" remark.

 

[Bats]

Re-read what I wrote above. Most notably the 2nd paragraph, and what I said about Harvey there. If you don't get it, then we're at an impasse.

 

[BestGirl]

Re-read what I wrote above. Most notably the 2nd paragraph, and what I said about Harvey there. If you don't get it, then we're at an impasse.

I think I can see what you're getting at, but if you rewatch the end of TDK it doesn't fit in. Gordon says that if anyone knew about what Harvey did "people will lose hope." But Gothamites already knew that Surillo and the others were dead by the Joker's hand, and they hadn't lost hope. They fought back against the Joker's plan on the ferries. Gordon meant that if people knew Dent was a murderer, they would lose their faith in good completely. Batman therefore took responsibility for Dent's crimes, not the Joker's.

 

[[A]]

Yeah, everyone knew about Joker's victims. Remember? NO MOAR DEAD COPZ!

 

[mothy]

The Batman's secret identity is The Joker.

well, they both do wear make-up.

 

[nachtschicht]

Heh, Batman's magic make-up. Now you see it - now you don't!
Makes for better mourning, I suppose. No big black emoman-tears running down yer face


Also - I agree with you, Anita. I'm not sure they knew the Joker was there at all (I was convinced he wasn't working alone - no one freaked and fled the bus when he hopped in), but it prolly doesn't matter much, since, as you said, they didn't see him go in or leave the hospital.

It's gotta be the two cops! er, I mean

 

[BestGirl]

So the five victims were probably

The two cops guarding Harvey at the hospital
Harvey
Maroni
Maroni's driver

How did Gordon know that Dent killed Maroni and his driver?

 

[[A]]

Two cops at the hospital..?

 

[nachtschicht]

Davis and NonameDude?

How did Gordon know that Dent killed Maroni and his driver?

...Good question. Huh. I thought he (much later) suspected something, because of this 'before you let the clown out of the box' line. Not sure that's enough, though. The driver... They found the car? OMGwat. Can't they just tell us?

 

[[A]]

But the cops in the hospital were killed by the Joker

 

[nachtschicht]

Yes. We're just trying to figure out whether Gordon knew this or not. (again. still lol)

 

[[A]]

It's a spiral downward!

 

[BestGirl]

...Good question. Huh. I thought he (much later) suspected something, because of this 'before you let the clown out of the box' line. Not sure that's enough, though. The driver... They found the car? OMGwat. Can't they just tell us?

I'm sure the car was found and the death of one of the most famous mobsters in Gotham was reported to Gordon, but how did he know Harvey had something to do with it?

 

[nachtschicht]

Hm. There's a train behind the car when it crashes. Kinda don't like this one, though. If someone on the train saw him leaving, they'd be wondering what he was doing there, huh? Assuming they recognized him, I mean.

Okay... The guy Dent pulled aside before getting into the car? That's assuming that 1) he wasn't killed, 2) he got a glimpse of Dent and 3) they found him somehow, but it's possible he could've talked. ...And that sounds incredibly complicated. But the cops planned to check the docks, right?

 

[bane]

I noticed that when Bruce says let's put a couple of tables together , they didn't actually put a couple of tables together, but just one table bigger with several inches.

 

[bane]

As does the Mayor.

t: Arent those just his natural eyelashes, I've watched him on several shows and I doubt he puts makeup, maybe his eyelashes are thick and black?

 

[EHTNAMTAB]

I've got to be honest (and this isnt a joke) i always had a suspicion the "five dead" - and the unclarity around it- was a reference to Blade Runner (a film Nolan cites as a big influence) - fans of that film will know what i mean (think the number of escaping replicants). And in a sense it doens't really matter in so far as it's shorthand for "Two Face's bad deeds".

The point isn't that dent killed person A but not person B - the point is batman is willing to take the blame for his evil.

It's almost a McGuffin.

 

[BestGirl]

That may have been Nolan's reason for the five dead remark, but why would Gordon say it if he didn't think it were true?

 

[Jodo]

Gordon makes stuff up.

 

[Brother Jack]

So the five victims were probably

The two cops guarding Harvey at the hospital

I thought we already went over this. The two cops are most likely Wuertz (who is dead) and Ramirez (who was MIA). The cops in the hospital were incinerated in the explosion, there would be no way of knowing if Two-Face killed them. There was no mention of them, it was probably just assumed that they died in the explosion.

How did Gordon know that Dent killed Maroni and his driver?

I'm sure he would have gotten word that the head of the mob was dead, and given Harvey's relationship to him and the other recent killings he probably put two and two together.

 

[nachtschicht]

Yeah, except Dent had to get them outta the way to get out. Dent, a kidnapper, the Joker, doesn't matter. Otherwise they'd have to assume Dent died too

I'm too tired for this... But they're incinerated anyway. What I wanna know is where the Joker put the bodies for those last couple minutes; NonameDude should be lying in the doorway but doesn't mh

t: Arent those just his natural eyelashes, I've watched him on several shows and I doubt he puts makeup, maybe his eyelashes are thick and black?

Maybe it's...permanent make-up? Yeah, he always looks like this. If it's natural, I don't wanna know what he looked like as a kid lol Creepy.

 

[BestGirl]

I thought we already went over this. The two cops are most likely Wuertz (who is dead) and Ramirez (who was MIA). The cops in the hospital were incinerated in the explosion, there would be no way of knowing if Two-Face killed them. There was no mention of them, it was probably just assumed that they died in the explosion.

Take a look at Anita's posts:

Personally I've determined that the "two cops" are the ones Joker killed in the hospital. Harvey is on his rampage for only a few hours, and it was Wuertz's day off so the GPD wouldn't necessarily notice his absence during that time, especially since the entire city was emptying. Ramirez was only knocked out less than 30 minutes when Gordon (quite busy, obviously) got the call from Dent. So he wouldn't necessarily know she was missing, especially if she woke up and went back to work pretending nothing had happened.

Until Dent called him, Gordon fully believed that Dent was one of Joker's hostages. That part is not in question. They don't know that Joker was IN the hospital turning him to begin with. They know he was at the hospital (otherwise how could he have gotten that bus full of people), but they don't know he was in there talking with Dent. Dent doesn't divulge that Joker spoke to him either, he just said that Joker was right. So IMO, the "two cops" being the ones at the hospital is pretty definite.

I'm sure he would have gotten word that the head of the mob was dead, and given Harvey's relationship to him and the other recent killings he probably put two and two together.

I guess. I can't remember, did Dent and the cops know that the Joker was using Maroni's resources?