Thor 2 Dark World news, speculation and pictures possible Spoilers - Part 5

[Godzilla2000]

^ most likely. Doubtful though. these rumors seem to be spot on. and it seems, well, that she would die, if they were to pick someone. she fits that role. :/

Oh great...poor Loki is going to be in an even worse state of mind if that rumor of Frigga dying is true.

 

[Adamantium]

Oh great...poor Loki is going to be in an even worse state of mind if that rumor of Frigga dying is true.

I agree. The way it came off to me was that he was obviously jealous towards Thor but re-enforced after the fall into the abyss. Bitterness towards Odin just got worse upon realizing he was a Frost Giant and the fall into the abyss provoked his bitterness more. Also while he may have some unsettling feelings towards Frigga that are very minor, I think he deeply loves her and doesn't have a grudge/negativity towards Frigga about keeping his birthright a secret. If anything he holds Odin accountable and feels his control and influence kept Frigga from ever telling him the truth. As she said about Thor that Odin had his reasons for his banishment. She probably felt that Odin had his reasons for not telling Loki and she probably disagreed, but questioning those reasons would be disrespecting her husband.

So if she would die, I think that would leave Loki even more alone and make him even more bitter and cynical and probaly would blame not only Odin, but Thor for her death. However, if she's kidnapped, I think that would make Loki more prone to join their group to save her. The only thing he would care about was to save his Mother and then he would revisit his original ambitions afterwards.

 

[elizah72]

It occurred to me that if Frigga is dead, particularly in the heat of battle, would they not likely see her when they go to Valhalla for reinforcements?

 

[American Maid]

It occurred to me that if Frigga is dead, particularly in the heat of battle, would they not likely see her when they go to Valhalla for reinforcements?

I have been wondering that too, although I have found some articles that stated that at least some (Marvel) Asgardians go to Hel instead (even in cases where they are murdered). Basically, it's the same rule as for mortals: those who fight with honor and die in battle go to Valhalla. (In myth, the rule set is a little more complicated.)

But the question is still there. If they are going to visit every one of the Nine Realms, and if Frigga is already dead, won't they run into her in one of the realms of the dead? We were speculating a while back about Tyr being already dead but joining this cause. So how is it that Frigga would stay out of the picture?

So maybe we are missing some important detail.

 

[Xeno]

Oh great...poor Loki is going to be in an even worse state of mind if that rumor of Frigga dying is true.

"Poor Loki"? Loki spitefully repudiated the parents who raised after finding out his true heritage and jumping into the abyss. If he cared a damn about Frigga he wouldn't have sent Laufey and a bunch of Jotuns to kill Odin and not coincidentally attack his mother along the way. Loki will cry bitter tears if Frigga dies, but as usual he'll only be crying for himself, not her.

 

[elizah72]

"Poor Loki"? Loki spitefully repudiated the parents who raised after finding out his true heritage and jumping into the abyss. If he cared a damn about Frigga he wouldn't have sent Laufey and a bunch of Jotuns to kill Odin and not coincidentally attack his mother along the way. Loki will cry bitter tears if Frigga dies, but as usual he'll only be crying for himself, not her.

Not quite. Loki's plan was not to actually have Laufey kill Odin, otherwise he would not have showed up just in time to kill Laufey. The plan was always to kill Laufey in front of Odin and Frigga so that he would be "the worthy son". I always sort of assumed that part of the deal he faked making with Laufey is they would not kill Frigga, there is no scene saying this admittedly, but I mean, seems like Laufey had the chance, and he just knocked her out.

 

[American Maid]

She probably felt that Odin had his reasons for not telling Loki and she probably disagreed, but questioning those reasons would be disrespecting her husband.

Well, I saw it more as she disagreed and voiced her opinions early on, but elected to trust his judgement. (There's a deleted scene from Thor1 in which she makes it quite plain she disagrees with Odin's banishment of Thor, for example.)

So if she would die, I think that would leave Loki even more alone and make him even more bitter and cynical and probaly would blame not only Odin, but Thor for her death.

I think who he blames and how much depends in part on how the particulars of the story unfold and in part exactly how they are portraying Loki's disposition. To clarify the latter point, if they are portraying him as prone to blaming others for his own troubles, then he might tend to blame Odin and/or Thor even if it's just back luck that resulted in Frigga's death. The tweet from Adewale Akinnuoye-Agbaje suggests that Algrim might slay Frigga, but by no means confirms it. Maybe, for example, the room collapses while he and Odin are slugging it out.

Another possibility is that Thor and Loki might reach a detente arising from shared grief.

It's certainly a turn of events we had not anticipated. The aftermath may also consist of elements we are not currently anticipating.

 

[elizah72]

I have been wondering that too, although I have found some articles that stated that at least some (Marvel) Asgardians go to Hel instead (even in cases where they are murdered). Basically, it's the same rule as for mortals: those who fight with honor and die in battle go to Valhalla. (In myth, the rule set is a little more complicated.)

But the question is still there. If they are going to visit every one of the Nine Realms, and if Frigga is already dead, won't they run into her in one of the realms of the dead? We were speculating a while back about Tyr being already dead but joining this cause. So how is it that Frigga would stay out of the picture?

So maybe we are missing some important detail.

Yes, it seems likely they may run into her somewhere. It seems quite sad that the warriors who die with honor would go one place and their loved ones would go another, and be forever separated.

 

[American Maid]

Yes, it seems likely they may run into her somewhere. It seems quite sad that the warriors who die with honor would go one place and their loved ones would go another, and be forever separated.

Well, that's Viking culture for ya.

(Loophole: in myth, Odin chooses who can get into Valhalla. Presumably he can show up there from time to time, since he is said to rule over Valhalla. So technically, under those rules, he should be able to see Frigga again.)

As for them running into Frigga in the movie somewhere, it seems like that would undercut the dramatic power of her death.

 

[elizah72]

Well, I saw it more as she disagreed and voiced her opinions early on, but elected to trust his judgement. (There's a deleted scene from Thor1 in which she makes it quite plain she disagrees with Odin's banishment of Thor, for example.)

Yes, I agree with AM. That scene should have stayed in to show her character better. To say she is just afraid to disrespect or disagree with her husband would make her seem like she was just a doting wife with a weak personality, and not the strong Asgardian Queen and mother that she should be seen as.

I think who he blames and how much depends in part on how the particulars of the story unfold and in part exactly how they are portraying Loki's disposition. To clarify the latter point, if they are portraying him as prone to blaming others for his own troubles, then he might tend to blame Odin and/or Thor even if it's just back luck that resulted in Frigga's death. The tweet from Adewale Akinnuoye-Agbaje suggests that Algrim might slay Frigga, but by no means confirms it. Maybe, for example, the room collapses while he and Odin are slugging it out.

Another possibility is that Thor and Loki might reach a detente arising from shared grief.

It's certainly a turn of events we had not anticipated. The aftermath may also consist of elements we are not currently anticipating.

Agreed. Although I actually am thinking Malekith will kill her with Algrim present/helping and Loki will go after Malekith, well... if it has to happen, that's on my wish list anyway.

 

[elizah72]

Well, that's Viking culture for ya.

(Loophole: in myth, Odin chooses who can get into Valhalla. Presumably he can show up there from time to time, since he is said to rule over Valhalla. So technically, under those rules, he should be able to see Frigga again.)

As for them running into Frigga in the movie somewhere, it seems like that would undercut the dramatic power of her death. So that's why this is nagging at me.

That's interesting. Good to know.

I dont know could have a very moving scene where she has a chance to say goodbye to her boys.

 

[American Maid]

Well, I saw it more as she disagreed and voiced her opinions early on, but elected to trust his judgement. (There's a deleted scene from Thor1 in which she makes it quite plain she disagrees with Odin's banishment of Thor, for example.)

Yes, I agree with AM. That scene should have stayed in to show her character better. To say she is just afraid to disrespect or disagree with her husband would make her seem like she was just a doting wife with a weak personality, and not the strong Asgardian Queen and mother that she should be seen as.

Indeed. Frigg of myth was the only other of the Aesir who was permitted (who was worthy) of sitting on Odin's throne and looking out over the universe. She was one of the few Aesir who had the power of flight, possessing a cloak of falcon feathers. (It is not clear that Tor of myth can fly via Mjoelner, btw.)

And in the movie, Frigga took out one of the attacking frost giants!

I think who [Loki] blames and how much depends in part on how the particulars of the story unfold and in part exactly how they are portraying Loki's disposition. To clarify the latter point, if they are portraying him as prone to blaming others for his own troubles, then he might tend to blame Odin and/or Thor even if it's just back luck that resulted in Frigga's death. The tweet from Adewale Akinnuoye-Agbaje suggests that Algrim might slay Frigga, but by no means confirms it. Maybe, for example, the room collapses while he and Odin are slugging it out.

Agreed. Although I actually am thinking Malekith will kill her with Algrim present/helping and Loki will go after Malekith, well... if it has to happen, that's on my wish list anyway.

Well, there surely are some details we are missing. Odin's stats on the Marvel website are quite superlative, better than Thor's. And our fellow members have been relating how we have not yet seen Odin portrayed at his full power. So it doesn't seem right that even Malekith and Algrim together would be able to handle Odin. Still, if Andrew Lawden's leak is to be believed, paired with Adewale Akinnuoye-Agbaje's tweet, Odin must somehow become overwhelmed, if he is there when Frigga perishes.

I only mentioned it to support my point that Loki may blame Odin and/or Thor even if, objectively, they are blameless.

 

[elizah72]

Remember it is likely not just Algrim and Malekith but also probably a whole lot of Dark Elves attacking the castle all going on at once. So If Frigga is fighting alongside her husband and (probably) Thor, Sif and the Warriors 3 as well, and they are being overwhelmed by the numbers, then in the confusion of battle, certainly seems like there will be casualties.

But I understand what you are saying, it will depend on how things unfold. I can't see her going out without a fight though.

 

[The_Mighty_Thor]

(It is not clear that Tor of myth can fly via Mjoelner, btw.)
.

Actually it's pretty clear that he couldn't. That's a marvel thing.

 

[American Maid]

Actually it's pretty clear that he couldn't. That's a marvel thing.

That's what I thought. But I couldn't find a source on the myth to confirm it. So I stated it that way just in case I had overlooked a source.

 

[cherokeesam]

It occurred to me that if Frigga is dead, particularly in the heat of battle, would they not likely see her when they go to Valhalla for reinforcements?

Bringing up the issue of an afterlife, particularly a pagan one based on dead warriors dining in the halls of Valhalla, would be extremely problematic.

For those who continue to harp on Clarke's Law in the Thor movies ("it's not magic, it's a sufficiently advanced technology"), this would be illustrative of straight-up supernatural. It would be proof of afterlife, of pagan gods, of magic in the purest sense of the word --- the whole nine yards.

I strongly doubt Marvel wants to cross that bridge.

 

[elizah72]

I understand that but if the stuntman's spoilers are correct, and not a bunch of red herrings to throw us off a while, then it sounds like they are already planning to cross that bridge to bring dead warriors in to help defend Asgard.

 

[American Maid]

Bringing up the issue of an afterlife, particularly a pagan one based on dead warriors dining in the halls of Valhalla, would be extremely problematic.

For those who continue to harp on Clarke's Law in the Thor movies ("it's not magic, it's a sufficiently advanced technology"), this would be illustrative of straight-up supernatural. It would be proof of afterlife, of pagan gods, of magic in the purest sense of the word --- the whole nine yards.

I strongly doubt Marvel wants to cross that bridge.

I understand that but if the stuntman's spoilers are correct, and not a bunch of red herrings to throw us off a while, then it sounds like they are already planning to cross that bridge to bring dead warriors in to help defend Asgard.

I suppose I count as one of the harpists, since I have posted about it in the past. But my take thus far has been that Marvel really has not fully embraced Clarke's (third) law, just referenced it. They are strongly suggesting the existence of magic in the MCU. We have seen several things happen already that are difficult to explain purely in terms of science. That suggests that they have already crossed the bridge of having supernatural/magical elements in these films. (Which doesn't automatically mean that they are saying there are pagan gods, imo.)

As to whether it would be problematic, it's really hard to tell, for me at least, whether anyone in the wide world would be offended. I was surprised that people took issue with the magic shown in the Harry Potter films, and I was surprised that people did *not* object to a human marrying a vampire in a church (Twilight). (Of course, maybe somebody did and I just didn't hear about it.)

 

[BigThor]

Well, there surely are some details we are missing. Odin's stats on the Marvel website are quite superlative, better than Thor's. And our fellow members have been relating how we have not yet seen Odin portrayed at his full power. So it doesn't seem right that even Malekith and Algrim together would be able to handle Odin. Still, if Andrew Lawden's leak is to be believed, paired with Adewale Akinnuoye-Agbaje's tweet, Odin must somehow become overwhelmed, if he is there when Frigga perishes.

I only mentioned it to support my point that Loki may blame Odin and/or Thor even if, objectively, they are blameless.

Dude you have no idea, Odin isn't just "better" than Thor he's like Thor times several thousand.

With that being said Odin isn't omnipresent, his attention is going to be on the opponents in front of him when he's battling the elves.

 

[jaqua99]

"Poor Loki"? Loki spitefully repudiated the parents who raised after finding out his true heritage and jumping into the abyss. If he cared a damn about Frigga he wouldn't have sent Laufey and a bunch of Jotuns to kill Odin and not coincidentally attack his mother along the way. Loki will cry bitter tears if Frigga dies, but as usual he'll only be crying for himself, not her.

I'm with ya. Lol Poor Thor.

This sounds much more like Loki.

Not quite. Loki's plan was not to actually have Laufey kill Odin, otherwise he would not have showed up just in time to kill Laufey. The plan was always to kill Laufey in front of Odin and Frigga so that he would be "the worthy son". I always sort of assumed that part of the deal he faked making with Laufey is they would not kill Frigga, there is no scene saying this admittedly, but I mean, seems like Laufey had the chance, and he just knocked her out.

But again, it is all for selfish needs. That plan wasn't to look good for frigga and his father, it was to prove to them that he deserves to be king.

Thus a selfish act. Loki wants what Loki wants. Only what Loki wants, not caring of the opinion of others. Some of Loki's comments to his mother, and father, "I could have done it father, for you, for all of us", that is Loki being Loki. Manipulative. Here is why. There isn't confirmee sincerity in what he is saying. Since he is based off the comic book character, I would be willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. Obviously Loki has always been Jealous of Thor, but in my opinion, and I am sure some others will agree, Loki's motives for that movie were not to Look good in fron't of Odin, and Frigga, showing he is a great son who deserves the thrown, his motives were wanting the throne. That's how Loki manipulates. That's how I saw it anyway. Obviously he would like Thor's glory, but I saw that whole movie as a plot for Loki to be king of Asgard. I think The Avengers sorta proves that as well, "I was a king, the rightful King of Asgard" "I AM A KING!" To put it simply, I don't think Loki's plan was to kill them in fron't of Odin and Frigga so he would be the "worthy son" with his motive being seeking approval. His plan was to kill them in fron't of Odin and Frigga so he could get the thrown. With his motive being his desire to be king. And there is plenty that supports that. Simply seeking approval by his parents that's just too out of character, even for movie Loki lol. I think it was all just his master manipulating skills trying to get what he ultimately wanted. The Throne of Asgard.

I want to see some real Loki abilities this time! Energy/magical blasts without a weapon. Mind control without a weapon. Teleporting. Spells. Shape shifting. I wanna see Loki have powers. Contrary to what the movie may have showed, Outside of Thor, Loki is far more powerful than any of the avengers. I will argue this part to the death, yeah Loki's arrogace got his butt beat by Hulk, but as far as I saw it, Loki is a character who under no circumstances should loose a fight to hulk, unless he wants to, or is just stupid. Outside of Mangog, Loki is one of the worst characters Hulk can fight. WAY too many advantages.

Remember it is likely not just Algrim and Malekith but also probably a whole lot of Dark Elves attacking the castle all going on at once. So If Frigga is fighting alongside her husband and (probably) Thor, Sif and the Warriors 3 as well, and they are being overwhelmed by the numbers, then in the confusion of battle, certainly seems like there will be casualties.

But I understand what you are saying, it will depend on how things unfold. I can't see her going out without a fight though.

Idk. I mean, Odin will not be overwhelmed by Malekith, Algrim, and Dark Elves. Even if Algrim was Kurse. Odin isn't just more powerful than Thor. The scale in difference is even greater than Cap and Thor. In terms of power, I would say Thor is to Odin what daredevil would be to thor. Maybe even more. Like BT said, unless he his focusing on one thing, Odin can end them all. Easily. Which is curious to how this will be done. Cause Odin is incredibly powerful. Loki himself referred to him as "the most powerful being in the 9 realms"

Dude you have no idea, Odin isn't just "better" than Thor he's like Thor times several thousand.

With that being said Odin isn't omnipresent, his attention is going to be on the opponents in front of him when he's battling the elves.

 

[Xeno]

Not quite. Loki's plan was not to actually have Laufey kill Odin, otherwise he would not have showed up just in time to kill Laufey. The plan was always to kill Laufey in front of Odin and Frigga so that he would be "the worthy son". I always sort of assumed that part of the deal he faked making with Laufey is they would not kill Frigga, there is no scene saying this admittedly, but I mean, seems like Laufey had the chance, and he just knocked her out.

Loki didn't just want to be the worthy son, he wanted to be king of Asgard. To that end, he actually killed the chosen heir Thor with the Destroyer armor before arranging his supposed demonstration of filial devotion and patricide in Odin's bedchamber. That was the setup: Loki murdered his brother so that he could be positioned to impress his adopted father by also murdering his biological father. What a loving son!


Only Odin's intervention saved Thor from the death Loki had visited upon him. Loki was pissed when he realized that Thor had been revived. He sought to remedy that in The Avengers by dropping his brother five miles in a cage, and later by stabbing him (it should have been in the back instead, though).

 

[BigThor]

I want to see some real Loki abilities this time! Energy/magical blasts without a weapon. Mind control without a weapon. Teleporting. Spells. Shape shifting. I wanna see Loki have powers. Contrary to what the movie may have showed, Outside of Thor, Loki is far more powerful than any of the avengers. I will argue this part to the death, yeah Loki's arrogace got his butt beat by Hulk, but as far as I saw it, Loki is a character who under no circumstances should loose a fight to hulk, unless he wants to, or is just stupid. Outside of Mangog, Loki is one of the worst characters Hulk can fight. WAY too many advantages.

Same here, I think MCU Loki is SEVERELY toned down perhaps alot more than any other character in The Avengers.

I feel the same way about Loki vs Hulk, Loki has so many powers he could actually make it so that the Hulk couldn't even touch him.

Idk. I mean, Odin will not be overwhelmed by Malekith, Algrim, and Dark Elves. Even if Algrim was Kurse. Odin isn't just more powerful than Thor. The scale in difference is even greater than Cap and Thor. In terms of power, I would say Thor is to Odin what daredevil would be to thor. Maybe even more. Like BT said, unless he his focusing on one thing, Odin can end them all. Easily. Which is curious to how this will be done. Cause Odin is incredibly powerful. Loki himself referred to him as "the most powerful being in the 9 realms"

Did Loki say this in the MCU?

 

[Hawkingbird]

Just saw this on Tumblr...

 

[elizah72]

But again, it is all for selfish needs. That plan wasn't to look good for frigga and his father, it was to prove to them that he deserves to be king.

Absolutely, I'm not disagreeing with you there, he needs them to consider him "worthy" to be King, but he also desires their approval, and he desired their approval BEFORE he decided to do all that bad stuff so he can be king. Here's why...

"I never wanted the Throne, I only wanted to be your equal." That line is delivered when the jig is up, no need to lie anymore, and Loki is pretty enraged. So I think we'd both agree that it is truth, no? If so, that would indicate that up until that day, he was more interested in everyone (including Odin and Frigga) considering him Thor's equal, even if he wasn't king. The introduction of the truth of Loki's parentage is what causes him to snap, and take the throne for himself, so he can continue to hide, and even try to erase, the fact that he is not Asgardian but from a race of monsters. Selfish yes, definitely, but one can see why a character may snap, and want to do anything and everything to hide the truth, under such circumstances.

It is a combination of need of approval AND the selfish desire to be ruler AND a strong desire to hide this horrible truth about his parentage that drives him in the first film. MCU Loki is a bit more complicated than "Oh, he's just pure evil" there is other stuff going on in that bag of cats of a brain of his and it really surprises me when people dont see it when it is so clearly there. As The Other says, "Your ambition is little, and full of childish need." Children, as much as food, shelter, clothing and all that good stuff need their parents approval and love, something which * in Loki's mind * he didnt have nearly enough of and was still struggling for 1000 years after he was picked up on Jotunheim.

I actually do agree with you that the "I could have done it for you father" has sort of a manipulative edge to it, with the way he delivers the line. But there is at least some truth to it, as evidenced by the Other's "childish need" line in Avengers, and "Is that what Agard need of it's king?" which you would probably say was more lying but I think was a genuine feeling that Thor was absolultey inappropriate to be king (which, up until then Thor was) and that Loki felt he could do a better job. But, basically I think the "I could have done it" line is manipulative, with a hint of truth, but is just more of a, "uh-oh, I'm in trouble, I better use the puppy dog eyes and tears, that gets him every time..." thing.

BTW, where was the bar scene in Avengers with the Other and the Chitauri where Loki is drunk and whining about how Odin never loved him as much as Thor, and how he should have been made King of Asgard? LOL Would have been priceless. LOL

I want to see some real Loki abilities this time! Energy/magical blasts without a weapon. Mind control without a weapon. Teleporting. Spells. Shape shifting. I wanna see Loki have powers. Contrary to what the movie may have showed, Outside of Thor, Loki is far more powerful than any of the avengers. I will argue this part to the death, yeah Loki's arrogace got his butt beat by Hulk, but as far as I saw it, Loki is a character who under no circumstances should loose a fight to hulk, unless he wants to, or is just stupid. Outside of Mangog, Loki is one of the worst characters Hulk can fight. WAY too many advantages.

YES. YES. YES! He's a "master magician" where the hell has all the magic been?!

Idk. I mean, Odin will not be overwhelmed by Malekith, Algrim, and Dark Elves. Even if Algrim was Kurse. Odin isn't just more powerful than Thor. The scale in difference is even greater than Cap and Thor. In terms of power, I would say Thor is to Odin what daredevil would be to thor. Maybe even more. Like BT said, unless he his focusing on one thing, Odin can end them all. Easily. Which is curious to how this will be done. Cause Odin is incredibly powerful. Loki himself referred to him as "the most powerful being in the 9 realms"

Yes Loki did say that in Thor 1.

Yes, but let me point out how he fought the Frost Giants hand to hand and lost his eye to Laufey in the process. He doesn't seem to be nearly as powerful as he is in the comics, or he's been REALLY holding back for some reason yet to be revealed. Again they may have scaled back the power on some of these characters due to the old "if you show him/her being too powerful then nothing will ever be a believable challenge to him/her" problem.

 

[elizah72]

Just came upon this regarding Stuntman Andrew Lawden
http://www.runnersworld.com/communi...ies/trail-running/brush-iron-man-3-thor-2-nrr

I wonder if there will be any rewrites for Thor 2 due to this leak, by the way. Wasn't there some rewrites done when Sam Jackson's script pages for Avengers was swiped?

Gosh, if Frigga's life is spared due to Mr. Lawden's loose lips, then I may have to give that man a hug.

Am also reading that Stan Lee has confirmed there is a Dr. Strange Movie in the works. No confirmation that he's (Dr. Strange) is showing up in a cameo in Thor 2 as of yet, but certainly a possibility still.