Superman Returns Was Superman Really Out of Character in SR?

[Herolee10]

though this may be my first post in this thread..I've been following for quite some time..and damn..a lot of heated discussion takes place here...nevertheless...I guess I'll add my opinion...I think the one of the things wrong was that Singer never tended to dive more deeper into the character's feelings and explain more the back story for the characters to give the audience a better understanding of what the characters had been through...but on to the point...well like some have said already...even though superman represents the best we can be...and is a role model..he himself still faces his fair share of mistakes every now and then as he's still learning for him everyday experiences....hence the "Man" behind "superman"...he was raised like one of us..you can't really blame for the some of the actions that superman did in S.R....sure that the whole "if I saw Lois I wouldn't be able to leave" is questionable...but in my opinion..I think that if he saw her in person again...he knew that she would probably be able to tell if something was bothering him and wouldn't stop asking until she found out...and just looking at her would make it all more difficult for him to leave when he felt like he had to because of how much he was attached to her....as for him not having that much guilt abandoning humanity..well humans have survived long before he came into the picture...and his father always told him that they shouldn't get so attached to him to the point where they felt like they needed him for everything...but that's just my take on it

 

[mego joe]

But Superman is not a perfect being is he? He was raised as a human, so he is flawed like one, thats the only we relate to him IMO. If he was raised as a wolf, i guarantee you he would be hunting animals for food, in that situation would that be wrong?

I think the essential element that SpiderDaniel and casey are addressing is the fact that in Superman's public life his actions and motivations are inspiring and offer the hope that one person can make a positive difference otherwise, but as portrayed in SR, his personal life does not come off that way. He seems to be motivated by selfish reasons and makes mistakes that hurt the ones he loves. It just comes off as contradictory and ironic. I think the essential element is that SUperman is consistent in both his public and private lives and he actively works for a better life in both realms.

And since he wasn't raised as a wolf, he was raised as a genuinely loving caring, self-sacrificing human, he would act as one, consistently throughout all apects of his life.

 

[Dr. Fate]

I think the essential element that SpiderDaniel and casey are addressing is the fact that in Superman's public life his actions and motivations are inspiring and offer the hope that one person can make a positive difference otherwise, but as portrayed in SR, his personal life does not come off that way. He seems to be motivated by selfish reasons and makes mistakes that hurt the ones he loves. It just comes off as contradictory and ironic. I think the essential element is that SUperman is consistent in both his public and private lives and he actively works for a better life in both realms.

And since he wasn't raised as a wolf, he was raised as a genuinely loving caring, self-sacrificing human, he would act as one, consistently throughout all apects of his life.

Yep.

You all have a nice Labor Day now.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Just trying to point out that morality is based on something other than what is popular or the 'in' thing.

But the context of the situation are incomparable IMO.

And this is where we disagree (DUH!), I think he would know that it would be worse for Lois to not know why, and that if he said goodbye she would know that he did care and that he had a moral responsibility to tell her b/c of their sexual relationship.

Us, disagree? Never, lol. Only kidding, the thing is though, that what YOU think MJ, and while you have a great knowledge of Superman, he has never been in the situation he found himself in in SR in any other medium. Hence why i believe its impossible to say it was out of character because there is not previous standard to which way he would act.

I've actually read it twice. It has some non-standard storytelling techniques that really require concentration to figure out.

I've have read it fully twice, and both times i flew through it, other times i have skipped through bits of it just as a refresher for later GN's

I understand why you would think that, but to me the context is to dissimilar. He does tell the JLA, his friends and he can't tell Lois b/c she's one of the people he's trying to save. In SR, the mitigating factor to me that he's obligated to tell Lois is the fact that they were involved sexually at the time he left or just before he left.

Obviously he cant tell Lois, but he doesnt even tell Martha, Johnathan, Jimmy, Lana, etc either. Therefore, he leaves loved one's in the dark about he were is going or whether or not he will come back.

Thats what is similar to SR IMO.

I don't think he's that out of it when it comes to relationships. I think the mistake he makes is really more lack of common sense and common decency than anything else. It's not really a complex issue. I also think that if they are supposed to really be in love they would be able to put the other persons feeling first, just as he does on a daily basis in his public life as SUperman does with the public at large, he would be able to do the same for Lois in his personal life. He certainly understands the concept as it relates to his public life as Superman so it just seems incongruent that he cannot do the same thing in his private life with the woman he loves.

And so our circle goes round and round again and again, haven't we had this same discussion before? Ha, ha!

BTW- also read Batman: Hush, have you read that?

But Superman has never been in love before in this continuity has he? He hasnt really had a meaningful relationship before Lois and thats why i think he doesnt know how to act when faced with a tough, tough decision.

I think the essential element that SpiderDaniel and casey are addressing is the fact that in Superman's public life his actions and motivations are inspiring and offer the hope that one person can make a positive difference otherwise, but as portrayed in SR, his personal life does not come off that way. He seems to be motivated by selfish reasons and makes mistakes that hurt the ones he loves. It just comes off as contradictory and ironic. I think the essential element is that SUperman is consistent in both his public and private lives and he actively works for a better life in both realms.

And since he wasn't raised as a wolf, he was raised as a genuinely loving caring, self-sacrificing human, he would act as one, consistently throughout all apects of his life.

Yeah, i understand what Spiderdaniel is trying to say, and to his credit he points his point accross well. BUT, i just totally disagree with it.

I like to think of myself as a loving, caring, unselfish person, but it doesnt mean i dont make some BAD mistakes sometimes. As i have said, if Superman was raised as a human, a good human, but essentially human, he can still make the same mistakes as a human. This isnt God we are talking about here.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

though this may be my first post in this thread..I've been following for quite some time..and damn..a lot of heated discussion takes place here...nevertheless...I guess I'll add my opinion...I think the one of the things wrong was that Singer never tended to dive more deeper into the character's feelings and explain more the back story for the characters to give the audience a better understanding of what the characters had been through...but on to the point...well like some have said already...even though superman represents the best we can be...and is a role model..he himself still faces his fair share of mistakes every now and then as he's still learning for him everyday experiences....hence the "Man" behind "superman"...he was raised like one of us..you can't really blame for the some of the actions that superman did in S.R....sure that the whole "if I saw Lois I wouldn't be able to leave" is questionable...but in my opinion..I think that if he saw her in person again...he knew that she would probably be able to tell if something was bothering him and wouldn't stop asking until she found out...and just looking at her would make it all more difficult for him to leave when he felt like he had to because of how much he was attached to her....as for him not having that much guilt abandoning humanity..well humans have survived long before he came into the picture...and his father always told him that they shouldn't get so attached to him to the point where they felt like they needed him for everything...but that's just my take on it

First, welcome to the hype.

Second, GREAT post and i totally agree with all of it, Superman obviously didnt want to see Lois in pain, it would have been too much for him, thats why he didnt tell her IMO.

 

[LexCorp]

though this may be my first post in this thread..I've been following for quite some time..and damn..a lot of heated discussion takes place here...nevertheless...I guess I'll add my opinion...I think the one of the things wrong was that Singer never tended to dive more deeper into the character's feelings and explain more the back story for the characters to give the audience a better understanding of what the characters had been through...but on to the point...well like some have said already...even though superman represents the best we can be...and is a role model..he himself still faces his fair share of mistakes every now and then as he's still learning for him everyday experiences....hence the "Man" behind "superman"...he was raised like one of us..you can't really blame for the some of the actions that superman did in S.R....sure that the whole "if I saw Lois I wouldn't be able to leave" is questionable...but in my opinion..I think that if he saw her in person again...he knew that she would probably be able to tell if something was bothering him and wouldn't stop asking until she found out...and just looking at her would make it all more difficult for him to leave when he felt like he had to because of how much he was attached to her....as for him not having that much guilt abandoning humanity..well humans have survived long before he came into the picture...and his father always told him that they shouldn't get so attached to him to the point where they felt like they needed him for everything...but that's just my take on it

Well said and welcome buddy

 

[mego joe]

But the context of the situation are incomparable IMO.

But the point is simply that morality comes from an ideal situation or rather how people would treat each other ideally, no matter the context.

Us, disagree? Never, lol. Only kidding, the thing is though, that what YOU think MJ, and while you have a great knowledge of Superman, he has never been in the situation he found himself in in SR in any other medium. Hence why i believe its impossible to say it was out of character because there is not previous standard to which way he would act.

While specifically not in the exact situation, there are things we know about his character which would lead on to believe he would act a certain way. And w/o the details of his leaving, we really don't know if he's been in the situation before or not. I think we know enough about the character though to get a sense of what he would or would not do. He's not supposed to be a totally new character to us.

I've have read it fully twice, and both times i flew through it, other times i have skipped through bits of it just as a refresher for later GN's

I enjoyed it very much.

Obviously he cant tell Lois, but he doesnt even tell Martha, Johnathan, Jimmy, Lana, etc either. Therefore, he leaves loved one's in the dark about he were is going or whether or not he will come back.

Thats what is similar to SR IMO.

The thing about this is that we don't really know if he said anything to them or not. It's not in the story, but probably b/c it is of no significance to the story. Stories cover what is significant to the story itself. There's no way of knowing since it doesn't have any impact on the story itself. Ex... we never see Superman going to the bathroom, but that doesn't mean he doesn't go, it's just not significant to the story. THe same with "For Tomorrow." Telling Ma, Pa, Lana etc.. just isn't significant. Where as in SR not telling Lois is significant to the story. There are plenty of SUperman stories wherein Superman goes offworld, but it's not significant to the story if he does or doesn't tell anyone.

That to me is the biggest difference.

But Superman has never been in love before in this continuity has he?

I don't know? Has he? Is there anyway to know? THere really isn't enough backstory given to know.

He hasnt really had a meaningful relationship before Lois and thats why i think he doesnt know how to act when faced with a tough, tough decision.

And I think it doesn't matter. To me an essential part of SUperman's character IS making the tough decisions and doing what is right based on his characterization of being a genuine caring and loving person instilled with high values and a strong moral character.

Yeah, i understand what Spiderdaniel is trying to say, and to his credit he points his point accross well. BUT, i just totally disagree with it.

Got it.

I like to think of myself as a loving, caring, unselfish person, but it doesnt mean i dont make some BAD mistakes sometimes. As i have said, if Superman was raised as a human, a good human, but essentially human, he can still make the same mistakes as a human. This isnt God we are talking about here.

But part of what SpiderDaniel is saying is that what is essential about SUperman IS that he IS better than the average Joe (not Mego Joe, ha ha). He IS a role model, he does act selflessly and from a flawless motivation. He is essentially human, but a good human, a role model human, who isn't going to hurt anyone or let anyone be hurt IF he can help it. Things may not turn out as he expects it to, but that's more about other people rather than his own shortcomings, or perhaps a lack of insight into the evil that humans can be capable of. That's sort of the point of having him say "I never lie" and that his values are based on "Truth, Justice and the American Way." He's an idealist who tries to make the world better by living by those ideals and whose motivation is in line with those values.

To make his mistakes be so common and average, it takes away that essential element of his character.

Perhaps you don't see those things as part of his character, but that is the classic characterization of Superman, and I think you'd be hard pressed to find a story that does not embody those elements, SR not withstanding.

To me it all boils down to him not saying goodbye within the context of his sexual relationship with Lois. It's really a very small element, but everything else in the story is driven by that. YOu could change that one element and still have essentially the same story.

 

[mego joe]

First, welcome to the hype.

Second, GREAT post and i totally agree with all of it, Superman obviously didnt want to see Lois in pain, it would have been too much for him, thats why he didnt tell her IMO.

WHat I can't reconcile about that is that 'not seeing her in pain' is about him and not about her. I've said it before, but if he's really concerned about her, then he would tell her, b/c it's much more painful for her to find out the way she did rather than if he had told her the truth.

 

[SuperDaniel]

Yeah, i understand what Spiderdaniel is trying to say, and to his credit he points his point accross well. BUT, i just totally disagree with it.

I like to think of myself as a loving, caring, unselfish person, but it doesnt mean i dont make some BAD mistakes sometimes. As i have said, if Superman was raised as a human, a good human, but essentially human, he can still make the same mistakes as a human. This isnt God we are talking about here.

So? You are not Superman. Not even me, mego joe or any other person in this planet. Superman is above us. Yes, he was raised as a normal human being but THE KENTS raised him with the best moral values and therefore he became an example of the best human being possible. You totally dont understand the character at all. Superman is a symbol of hope, decency, true and justice.

The name says it self. It is SUPERman. Its not ORDINARYman. And the SUPER doesnt mean only that he is above us physically, but also psychollogycally.

You`re talking about Spider-man, not Superman. This is how Superman have been portrayed in his 70 years of history.

Even Singer says in his documentary. However the greatest irony is that in his movie, Superman became Spider-man, making mistakes for pure selfish reasons.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

But the point is simply that morality comes from an ideal situation or rather how people would treat each other ideally, no matter the context.

But it is completely different though isnt it Mega Joe, people having human slaves has NO explanation, its just plain wrong. Supermans situation does have an explanation and an understandable one IMO.

While specifically not in the exact situation, there are things we know about his character which would lead on to believe he would act a certain way. And w/o the details of his leaving, we really don't know if he's been in the situation before or not. I think we know enough about the character though to get a sense of what he would or would not do. He's not supposed to be a totally new character to us.


I enjoyed it very much.

Ahhh but he is supposed to be a new character to the general audience and new fans, the movie wasnt just made for fanboys MJ, it was made with the GA in mind probably even more so than the fans, this is something people who didnt like the movie forget IMO.

Glad you enjoyed FT.

The thing about this is that we don't really know if he said anything to them or not. It's not in the story, but probably b/c it is of no significance to the story. Stories cover what is significant to the story itself. There's no way of knowing since it doesn't have any impact on the story itself. Ex... we never see Superman going to the bathroom, but that doesn't mean he doesn't go, it's just not significant to the story. THe same with "For Tomorrow." Telling Ma, Pa, Lana etc.. just isn't significant. Where as in SR not telling Lois is significant to the story. There are plenty of SUperman stories wherein Superman goes offworld, but it's not significant to the story if he does or doesn't tell anyone.

That to me is the biggest difference.

Well exactly, plenty of things in FT are left 'VAGUE' so to speak but not many people complain about that. IMO in FT, like SR, he doesnt know if he will come back from the Phantom Zone because he doesnt know what the vanishing object can do. He bases it all on his own faith. But he doesnt know he isnt going to die, and Zod gave him a right beating so he could have. So IMO, he should have told ALL of his family and friends but chose not to, this is similar to SR IMO.

I don't know? Has he? Is there anyway to know? THere really isn't enough backstory given to know.

Judging from the 1st movie, no, plus in interviews, both Routh and Bosworth mentioned that Superman hasnt been in love before so he doesnt know what to do when faced with losing that love.

And I think it doesn't matter. To me an essential part of SUperman's character IS making the tough decisions and doing what is right based on his characterization of being a genuine caring and loving person instilled with high values and a strong moral character.


Got it.


But part of what SpiderDaniel is saying is that what is essential about SUperman IS that he IS better than the average Joe (not Mego Joe, ha ha). He IS a role model, he does act selflessly and from a flawless motivation. He is essentially human, but a good human, a role model human, who isn't going to hurt anyone or let anyone be hurt IF he can help it. Things may not turn out as he expects it to, but that's more about other people rather than his own shortcomings, or perhaps a lack of insight into the evil that humans can be capable of. That's sort of the point of having him say "I never lie" and that his values are based on "Truth, Justice and the American Way." He's an idealist who tries to make the world better by living by those ideals and whose motivation is in line with those values.

To make his mistakes be so common and average, it takes away that essential element of his character.

Perhaps you don't see those things as part of his character, but that is the classic characterization of Superman, and I think you'd be hard pressed to find a story that does not embody those elements, SR not withstanding.

To me it all boils down to him not saying goodbye within the context of his sexual relationship with Lois. It's really a very small element, but everything else in the story is driven by that. YOu could change that one element and still have essentially the same story.

Does Superman himself consider himself better than humans? No he doesnt, because he knows he isnt, he has been raised as one, and no matter how much moral values, etc, he has been taught, he can still make a human error IMO.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

So? You are not Superman. Not even me, mego joe or any other person in this planet. Superman is above us. Yes, he was raised as a normal human being but THE KENTS raised him with the best moral values and therefore he became an example of the best human being possible. You totally dont understand the character at all. Superman is a symbol of hope, decency, true and justice.

The name says it self. It is SUPERman. Its not ORDINARYman. And the SUPER doesnt mean only that he is above us physically, but also psychollogycally.

You`re talking about Spider-man, not Superman. This is how Superman have been portrayed in his 70 years of history.

Even Singer says in his documentary. However the greatest irony is that in his movie, Superman became Spider-man, making mistakes for pure selfish reasons.

But Superman himself doesnt think he is above us, he considers us equals, hence why he feels he owes such a debt to our planet. As i have said before, anyone raised as a human, acts like one, meaning like humans he is flawed.

Show me an instance were Superman has EVER been considered perfect.

 

[Angeloz]

On fan forums.

Angeloz

 

[mego joe]

But it is completely different though isnt it Mega Joe, people having human slaves has NO explanation, its just plain wrong. Supermans situation does have an explanation and an understandable one IMO.

I don't think it's completely different. Both situations are about how you treat othe people. There is a right way and wrong way. It was morally and ethically wrong to leave Lois w/o explaining to her what he was doing. B/c they were involved sexually he was morally and ethically obligated to do so. It just shows he valued his own needs ( not having to do something difficult) over hers.

Ahhh but he is supposed to be a new character to the general audience and new fans, the movie wasnt just made for fanboys MJ, it was made with the GA in mind probably even more so than the fans, this is something people who didnt like the movie forget IMO.

I disagree. No one going into that movie didn't know who Superman was and have at least some notion of the character. Superman is the oldest and most recognizable comic superhero, period. To say he was suppposed to be new is just shortsighted.

Glad you enjoyed FT.

Me too.

Well exactly, plenty of things in FT are left 'VAGUE' so to speak but not many people complain about that.

I think everything significant to the story is sufficiently explained, however.

IMO in FT, like SR, he doesnt know if he will come back from the Phantom Zone because he doesnt know what the vanishing object can do. He bases it all on his own faith. But he doesnt know he isnt going to die, and Zod gave him a right beating so he could have. So IMO, he should have told ALL of his family and friends but chose not to, this is similar to SR IMO.

But the responsibilities and obligations of being involved with someone sexually are different from your obligations to the other people in your life. Plus, it can be argued that somefolks, ie.. Ma and Pa just know that there are times when he's going to go off on a mission and may not get a heads up. Also I think it can be argued that since Superman has taken the vanishin to be HIS responsibility and his fault he MUST fix it no matter what the cost. To me the situation and context are not similar enough. Especially, since in SR he had specific obligations towards Lois.

Judging from the 1st movie, no, plus in interviews, both Routh and Bosworth mentioned that Superman hasnt been in love before so he doesnt know what to do when faced with losing that love.

That 'vagueness' strikes again. Faced with losing that love b/c he has left is different than knowing he should say goodbye before he leaves.

Does Superman himself consider himself better than humans? No he doesnt, because he knows he isnt, he has been raised as one, and no matter how much moral values, etc, he has been taught, he can still make a human error IMO.

Just b/c he doesn't consider himself better, doesn't mean that he isn't or that his motivations aren't.

HIs humility won't allow him to consider himself better, even though the whole world (in the context of Superman stories) does consider him better.

If he wasn't 'the best of us' in his morality and ethics, then he would not be a role model or inspiring, or believe that his idealistic values are possible.

We use the term human to indicate that he's not perfect, but it's not about being perfect in this case, it's about whether or not his motivation for not telling Lois is based on selfish reasons or not. In the film it says his motivation was that it was 'too difficult.' Nothing is 'too difficult' for Superman to face. He may not suceed b/c he's not perfect, but he will at least try.

Even if he said goodbye, he's still far from perfect in SR.

 

[mego joe]

But Superman himself doesnt think he is above us, he considers us equals, hence why he feels he owes such a debt to our planet. As i have said before, anyone raised as a human, acts like one, meaning like humans he is flawed.

Show me an instance were Superman has EVER been considered perfect.

I think the subliminal belief that most people have about SUperman is that he is perfect.

Hence why in STM and SII why the filmmakers felt it was necessary for Superman to have an out in bringing Lois back to life and resetting the status quo at the end of SII.

I think that was the general portrayal for many years. SUperman could do no wrong.

NOw even though that approach has changed over the years, he has still not been show to do something for the wrong reasons, his motivations are still intact.

 

[Angeloz]

So naughty naughty making mistakes.

Angeloz

 

[mego joe]

So naughty naughty making mistakes.

Angeloz

And certainly SUperman is not naughty, is he?

 

[Angeloz]

So no chains in the bedroom?

Angeloz

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

I don't think it's completely different. Both situations are about how you treat othe people. There is a right way and wrong way. It was morally and ethically wrong to leave Lois w/o explaining to her what he was doing. B/c they were involved sexually he was morally and ethically obligated to do so. It just shows he valued his own needs ( not having to do something difficult) over hers.

Again we disagree then whatever: shock huh, lol), IMO the situations are completely different as is the context.

I disagree. No one going into that movie didn't know who Superman was and have at least some notion of the character. Superman is the oldest and most recognizable comic superhero, period. To say he was suppposed to be new is just shortsighted.

No, sorry MJ, but the fact remains that plenty of people going into this movie dont know the basics of Superman. There are plenty of teenagers, etc out there who have never watched STM or SII for example. He is THE most recognised hero, yes, BUT it doesnt mean EVERYONE knows his story.

Me too.


I think everything significant to the story is sufficiently explained, however.

Possibly, but IMO plenty of things were not explained enough in FT, though it didnt effect my enjoyment.

But the responsibilities and obligations of being involved with someone sexually are different from your obligations to the other people in your life. Plus, it can be argued that somefolks, ie.. Ma and Pa just know that there are times when he's going to go off on a mission and may not get a heads up. Also I think it can be argued that since Superman has taken the vanishin to be HIS responsibility and his fault he MUST fix it no matter what the cost. To me the situation and context are not similar enough. Especially, since in SR he had specific obligations towards Lois.

I disagree, i feel the obligation to your family is even bigger than it is to a girlfriend or wife, family comes first IMO, in ALL cases.

That 'vagueness' strikes again. Faced with losing that love b/c he has left is different than knowing he should say goodbye before he leaves.

As i and others have said, he knew he HAD to go to Krypton, he didnt want to say goodbye to Lois because he knew seeing her in pain would be unbearable for him, and make it all the more difficult to leave.

Just b/c he doesn't consider himself better, doesn't mean that he isn't or that his motivations aren't.

HIs humility won't allow him to consider himself better, even though the whole world (in the context of Superman stories) does consider him better.

If he wasn't 'the best of us' in his morality and ethics, then he would not be a role model or inspiring, or believe that his idealistic values are possible.

We use the term human to indicate that he's not perfect, but it's not about being perfect in this case, it's about whether or not his motivation for not telling Lois is based on selfish reasons or not. In the film it says his motivation was that it was 'too difficult.' Nothing is 'too difficult' for Superman to face. He may not suceed b/c he's not perfect, but he will at least try.

Even if he said goodbye, he's still far from perfect in SR.

Well, we are going around in circles now, i am of the belief that because Superman was raised as a human, no matter how well, he is still flawed like a human.

People make mistakes everyday were they intend the best to happen, but it just doesnt work out, Superman can do this as well IMO. I feel he had the best intentions in his heart when he didnt tell Lois he was leaving.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

I think the subliminal belief that most people have about SUperman is that he is perfect.

Hence why in STM and SII why the filmmakers felt it was necessary for Superman to have an out in bringing Lois back to life and resetting the status quo at the end of SII.

I think that was the general portrayal for many years. SUperman could do no wrong.

NOw even though that approach has changed over the years, he has still not been show to do something for the wrong reasons, his motivations are still intact.

Well i disagree again but cant be bothered explaining why because it wont change either of our viewpoints

 

[Spidey Lover 10]

out of character?...HELL NO!!! HE'S ****ING SUPERMAN, 4 PETE'S SAKE!!!! how could HE b out of character?

 

[Angeloz]

out of character?...HELL NO!!! HE'S ****ING SUPERMAN, 4 PETE'S SAKE!!!! how could HE b out of character?

When he dresses up as Batman. Oh wait he's done that at least twice in the comics also in the animated series.

Angeloz

 

[mego joe]

So no chains in the bedroom?

Angeloz

I never said that...

Is that naughty?

 

[mego joe]

Again we disagree then whatever: shock huh, lol), IMO the situations are completely different as is the context.

DIsagree! Oh the horror! AHHHHHH!

Serioulsy, the situations may be different, but the point is simply that morality comes from somewhere else, an ideal way of treating other people.

No, sorry MJ, but the fact remains that plenty of people going into this movie dont know the basics of Superman. There are plenty of teenagers, etc out there who have never watched STM or SII for example. He is THE most recognised hero, yes, BUT it doesnt mean EVERYONE knows his story.

I bet 90% of the movie goers know his basic story. Hence why SInger did not need to recount the whole thing and not do an origin story. He touched on elements, but did not go into detail becasue EVERYONE has a basic knowledge of who SUperman is, at least in the US.

Possibly, but IMO plenty of things were not explained enough in FT, though it didnt effect my enjoyment.

SUch as? I'm curious?

I disagree, i feel the obligation to your family is even bigger than it is to a girlfriend or wife, family comes first IMO, in ALL cases.

Well, I think that the whole issue of a sexual relationship changes that, especially if it is part of a committed relationship- remember my diatribe on that a few pages back? Or was that the other thread, I can't remember! Ha ha!

That specific kind of relationship changes the importance and significance. And who's to say he didn't tell Ma and Pa, it just wasn't essential to the story in Azzarello's opinion.

As i and others have said, he knew he HAD to go to Krypton, he didnt want to say goodbye to Lois because he knew seeing her in pain would be unbearable for him, and make it all the more difficult to leave.

Which, as I have said, is essentially motivated by selfish reasons and he's not putting Lois first as one would expect of Superman. It also undermines his indomitable will to at least to TRY and overcome seemingly impossible or difficult situation.

Well, we are going around in circles now, i am of the belief that because Superman was raised as a human, no matter how well, he is still flawed like a human.

CIrcles! No Doubt.

He may be flawed but, he's not capable of ANY mistake, only mistakes that are in keeping with his stated character. If he were capale of ANY mistake it would undermine his specific characterization. His actions would be COMPLETELY unpredictable.

People make mistakes everyday were they intend the best to happen, but it just doesnt work out, Superman can do this as well IMO. I feel he had the best intentions in his heart when he didnt tell Lois he was leaving.

And that is the crux of it. When you say he had the best intentions of when he didn't say goodbye, that in itself is wrong. And I believe from what's in the film that he KNEW it was wrong. When he says it was too difficult, to me that shows that his intention is not to feel pain himself, and he is not considering Lois and NOT acting with the best intentions.



IF they'd just made For Tomorrow into a movie, I know we'd both be happy with that!!

 

[mego joe]

Well i disagree again but cant be bothered explaining why because it wont change either of our viewpoints

UNderstood. Right back at you!

 

[Angeloz]

I never said that...

Is that naughty?

It's kinky. OK I was being silly.

Angeloz