The Dark Knight Rises What didn't you like about the movie? - Part 1

[Travesty]

"He saw only a monster who could never be tamed": this is also not in the movie, I can assure you.

I just took it form the script, as I don't have the DVD yet. Alfred still told us bluntly that Ra's excommunicated Bane for his extreme ways. Same rules still apply.

Oh, and on the topic of "But the child had a friend, a protector, who showed the others that this innocence was their redemption." There's no indiciation the Warlord's Daughter nor Talia nor Bane knew that Ra's had become a member of the League of Shadows after his exile from the warlord's domain. So Bane had no idea that helping Talia would lead to a rescue by the League. There was no guarantee of anything really even if she escaped...would she find her father? etc.

I never even alluded to the fact that Bane knew the LOS would help them out. My point, and the quote from the film, was that the kid would be able to redeem them. Whether that means she just throws the rope down like Bruce did, who knows, until it showed us exactly how....which it does. Why else would they show her getting out the pit with Ra's saving them, when he says the kid was the prisoners redemption?

 

[Vader815]

I just took it form the script, as I don't have the DVD yet. Alfred still told us bluntly that Ra's excommunicated Bane for his extreme ways. Same rules still apply.

I never even alluded to the fact that Bane knew the LOS would help them out. My point, and the quote from the film, was that the kid would be able to redeem them. Whether that means she just throws the rope down like Bruce did, who knows, until it showed us exactly how....which it does. Why else would they show her getting out the pit with Ra's saving them, when he says the kid was the prisoners redemption?

Bane was taught to utilize theatricality and deception. Bane clearly made a world-renown name for himself being a highly capable terrorist, especially given his passionate followers. He openly acted as a member of the league of shadows, going as far as to say he is the league, when in retrospect, we know this isn't true. What information Alfred gathers is based on false information.

Additionally, here's the actual quote from the script, which explains the nature of Ra's disdain towards Bane:

"TALIA
He saw only a monster who could
never be tamed. Whose very
existence was a reminder of the
hell he’d left his wife to die in.
He excommunicated Bane from the
League of Shadows. His only crime
was that he loved me."

This indicates the primary reason Ra's excommunicated him was directly or indirectly related to his caring for Talia, relieving Bane of any 'fault' in the extremity of his actions. This is important because it implies Ra's never really gave Bane a real chance and was never able to see past him as a monster. Additionally, the another is related to reminding Ra's of the grave mistakes in his past. I'd like to mention the shakespearian irony of Talia and Bane wanting revenge for Bruce killing Ra's when it's Bruce's initial desire for revenge that pushed him on his own path to save the city. Just because revenge was a major factor in Bruce's journey doesn't undermine the altruism of his actions, and by the same token it shouldn't undermine what Talia and Bane think are altruism even if a major force in their motivations are revenge.


-Vader

 

[MagnarTheGreat]

In the movie we're shown in a flashback (and not Alfred's MI6/CIA rumors or whatever) during the monologue that Ra's couldn't stand the sight of Bane. He looks away (Bane is off-screen).

According to Neeson he only filmed that one scene that was the hallucination scene with Bale. Which means the scene that got cut was the one in the script of Bane getting hit by sticks while Josh Pence Ra's looked away (Talia is there as well in the novelization, beaming with pride). I find that pretty strange/fascinating that Nolan decided to really do a number on the timeline with that change. This is another example of Nolan taking his foot off the Bane gas pedal and reaching for the brake. There's a lot of added Miranda/Talia stuff compared to the script as well, despite that one scene with Lucius in the board room being cut. It's all pretty fascinating stuff more people are going to notice once the Blu-ray/DVD/Digital release comes out.

In the movie, it doesn't show Talia emerging from the pit or Ra's rescuing them until Talia's separate monologue at the end of the movie. The prisoner's earlier monologue doesn't show Ra's coming back to the Pit after his exile...it's all separate stuff.

 

[The Joker]

Well, I'll just input most of my thoughts here in how I would have personally changed the film:

1. I would have made Bane his own man in the sense where he shared no personal connection or ties with Talia in any way. I would have had him be the child that escaped the pit, and that he was in charge of his own private military that was responsible for several regimes falling across the world. Talia would have sought him out to strike a deal, one that she believed that Bane would cooperate with her, but in actuality, Bane would double cross her as well. Bane's goal would have been to either cripple the US starting with Gotham or break it apart so that he can establish his own regime there.

2. Instead of focusing so much on the orphanage, I would have had some scenes dealing with how Gotham's Citizens were reacting and responding to Bane's hold over Gotham, let alone on their thoughts about Batman before he returned, when he was defeated, and when he finally returned to defeat Bane once and for all. That was sorely missing in this film, especially when Gotham's citizens were established so well in the previous film.

3. I would have had Talia reveal herself much earlier on, with her identity having been known to all during the 5 months. Her goal could have been not to destroy Gotham but to literally go through its corrupt and execute them one by one during the 5 months, with the bomb as her way of insuring that no one from the outside interfered.

4. Gotham should have looked much more worse than it did during the 5 months of militaristic rule from Bane.

5. I feel like they should have filmed the final battle/so called war between Bane's mercenaries and GPD much more better, more intense, and have the entire people of Gotham involved.

I whole heartedly agree with this list

 

[MAKAVELI25]

The more I think about Bane's plan, the more it irks me. Why even keep the policemen alive in the first place if he was going to blow up the city regardless? There are a lot of contrivances in the story that just don't add up

 

[Vader815]

The more I think about Bane's plan, the more it irks me. Why even keep the policemen alive in the first place if he was going to blow up the city regardless? There are a lot of contrivances in the story that just don't add up

Because directly murdering thousands of police officers probably wouldn't do much to keep the public in your favor.

-Vader

 

[MAKAVELI25]

Because directly murdering thousands of police officers probably wouldn't do much to keep the public in your favor.

-Vader

Oh, but taking over a city is all good? Killing their mayor? If they weren't going to fight back knowing he activated a nuclear bomb in their city what makes you think they were going to fight back because he had killed their cops?

 

[Ryan]

People say you shouldn't compare TDKR to Begins or TDK, but I don't think that justified. Both films raised the bar for Bat films and superhero films in general. Levitt's speach to Wayne sucked alot of air out of me and was a real head shaker. Putting that aside, I really lost interest when things went nuclear. Superhero films do have to have some pretty crazy scenarios. I could accept the runaway train in begins (not the most original) and the hostages on the boats. But the whole nuclear thing was so Superman. Heck he even had to fly it out to see in a very supermanesque move. Hated the Batwing too. No where near as cool as the Batpod. I missed the Batman fighting in the dark at the docks, in abandoned apartment buildings, and on the streets of gotham over turning trucks. Not flying around in a, whatever it was, picking up nuclear bombs and flying out to sea. Just a jump the shark kind of move. Bigger, Badder, did not equal Better in this case. I'll definately buy the blu ray, but turn it off right after the bat's back was broken, which I consider the last great scene from this series.

 

[Vader815]

Oh, but taking over a city is all good? Killing their mayor? If they weren't going to fight back knowing he activated a nuclear bomb in their city what makes you think they were going to fight back because he had killed their cops?

Yes, it is. That's the entire point, Bane didn't make it seem like he "took over the city" it was all about giving the power back to the people, that was the rhetoric of his speeches, and as I've described multiple times on here in the past, it's the people that take over Gotham, not Bane and his men. The lower class seemingly endorsed Bane's plan, from a general hype of a 'storm coming' that'll service the poor (this is the implication of Selina's speech to Bruce- a storm is coming towards the rich of the city), to working in the sewer's and willingly planting explosives across the city and willing to incapacitate or kill Blake.

Finally, in the big montage during Bane's prison speech, we see almost exclusively citizens ripping out the rich from their homes (not red bandanas present), and Bane only had a couple men fighting for him going into the city, meaning that 'army' Bane has (that's obviously meant to be representative of a lot more than those present but couldn't have been for budgetary reasons) is compromised almost entirely of citizens.

Murdering many thousands of police officers is completely different from sparking a revolution the citizens had already craved- echoing the French Revolution not to subtly.

-Vader

 

[The Joker]

Because directly murdering thousands of police officers probably wouldn't do much to keep the public in your favor.

-Vader

But killing two football teams is so much better.

 

[Vader815]

But killing two football teams is so much better.

I mean, I'd certainly hope it was...

-Vader

 

[MessenjahMatt]

My main gripe remains with Bane's voice processing, how can a big budget film like this have such bad ADR mixing? I've already complained enough about the prologue travesty, so I'll leave that alone, ha. But another one that sticks out like a sore thumb is during the stadium speech, the line "Now, This bomb is armed! This bomb is mobile! And the identity of the trigger man is a mystery, for one of you holds the detonator!" doesn't match at all with the rest of his voice in terms of muffle and stadium feedback.

 

[The Joker]

I mean, I'd certainly hope it was...

-Vader

Killing two innocent teams of football players wouldn't gain public favor with Bane any more than murdering Cops would.

 

[Vader815]

Killing two innocent teams of football players wouldn't gain public favor with Bane any more than murdering Cops would.

I'd have to strongly disagree with you there.

-Vader

 

[BatLobster]

In the real world, if a terrorist killed the Giants...then no, it wouldn't win any public favor with your average NY/NJ folk.

In a fictional Gotham City in which a segment of the lower class is ready to take up arms and revolt...well, athletes are a prime example of a grossly disproportionate distribution of wealth. I don't think the people that Bane was able to sway to his side are going to lose too much sleep over them.

 

[TheBat812]

I just took it form the script, as I don't have the DVD yet. Alfred still told us bluntly that Ra's excommunicated Bane for his extreme ways. Same rules still apply.

Alfred is basing his analysis on what he knows about Bane at the time - he simply assumes his excommunication was based on extremist views. He does not actually know the reason Bane was excommunicated, as we find out later, when we learn that Ra's really got rid of him because of what he reminded him of - the hell his wife died in. Many time in these films, what people say is not concrete showing of facts, but of perception. Many times they are purposefully wrong assessments by the character that they later realize and learn from.

 

[Vader815]

In the real world, if a terrorist killed the Giants...then no, it wouldn't win any public favor with your average NY/NJ folk.

In a fictional Gotham City in which a segment of the lower class is ready to take up arms and revolt...well, athletes are a prime example of a grossly disproportionate distribution of wealth. I don't think the people that Bane was able to sway to his side are going to lose too much sleep over them.

We also see tons of open seats. People may accuse me of reaching, but Nolan had the freedom to add as many digital extras as he wanted, and he did add quite a lot, but why not fill the upper decks? It's entirely possible he wanted to show people couldn't afford going. Just saying.

-Vader

 

[MAKAVELI25]

We also see tons of open seats. People may accuse me of reaching, but Nolan had the freedom to add as many digital extras as he wanted, and he did add quite a lot, but why not fill the upper decks? It's entirely possible he wanted to show people couldn't afford going. Just saying.

-Vader

I wonder why

 

[MAKAVELI25]

Yes, it is. That's the entire point, Bane didn't make it seem like he "took over the city" it was all about giving the power back to the people, that was the rhetoric of his speeches, and as I've described multiple times on here in the past, it's the people that take over Gotham, not Bane and his men. The lower class seemingly endorsed Bane's plan, from a general hype of a 'storm coming' that'll service the poor (this is the implication of Selina's speech to Bruce- a storm is coming towards the rich of the city), to working in the sewer's and willingly planting explosives across the city and willing to incapacitate or kill Blake.

Finally, in the big montage during Bane's prison speech, we see almost exclusively citizens ripping out the rich from their homes (not red bandanas present), and Bane only had a couple men fighting for him going into the city, meaning that 'army' Bane has (that's obviously meant to be representative of a lot more than those present but couldn't have been for budgetary reasons) is compromised almost entirely of citizens.

Murdering many thousands of police officers is completely different from sparking a revolution the citizens had already craved- echoing the French Revolution not to subtly.

-Vader

So you're telling me that people were unwilling to attack him despite him activating a Nuclear Bomb in their city....And blew up all the bridges leading away.....And killed their Mayor and took control of the WHOLE city in dramatic fashion.....And set up explosives all over the city that likely killed a lot of people and caused a lot of damages

...But hearing that all their cops were dead was really going to spark a revolution

 

[BatLobster]

We also see tons of open seats. People may accuse me of reaching, but Nolan had the freedom to add as many digital extras as he wanted, and he did add quite a lot, but why not fill the upper decks? It's entirely possible he wanted to show people couldn't afford going. Just saying.

-Vader

As someone who was at the stadium shoot and was certain they'd fill the stadium with digital extras, this definitely stood out to me too.

As far as keeping the cops alive, I think it's just another way in which Bane is trying to give Gotham false hope. He also spins the fact that the cops are going to survive to play up the whole benevolent dictator thing he's got going on. If he's letting the trapped cops live, maybe he really will let Gotham survive which is exactly what he wants people to think.

 

[Vader815]

So you're telling me that people were unwilling to attack him despite him activating a Nuclear Bomb in their city....And blew up all the bridges leading away.....And killed their Mayor and took control of the WHOLE city in dramatic fashion.....And set up explosives all over the city that likely killed a lot of people and caused a lot of damages

...But hearing that all their cops were dead was really going to spark a revolution

I just... I just explained that...

"Bane didn't make it seem like he "took over the city" it was all about giving the power back to the people, that was the rhetoric of his speeches, and as I've described multiple times on here in the past, it's the people that take over Gotham, not Bane and his men. The lower class seemingly endorsed Bane's plan, from a general hype of a 'storm coming' that'll service the poor (this is the implication of Selina's speech to Bruce- a storm is coming towards the rich of the city), to working in the sewer's and willingly planting explosives across the city and willing to incapacitate or kill Blake.

Finally, in the big montage during Bane's prison speech, we see almost exclusively citizens ripping out the rich from their homes (not red bandanas present), and Bane only had a couple men fighting for him going into the city, meaning that 'army' Bane has (that's obviously meant to be representative of a lot more than those present but couldn't have been for budgetary reasons) is compromised almost entirely of citizens.

Murdering many thousands of police officers is completely different from sparking a revolution the citizens had already craved- echoing the French Revolution not to subtly."

"The fire rises" references Bane being a spark that lit the fire festering in Gotham's heart before he had ever arrived. He's spreading the fire of revolution. As I said earlier, the citizens taking over the city is a not so subtle parallel to the French Revolution.


-Vader

 

[Cunning Stunts]

My main gripe remains with Bane's voice processing, how can a big budget film like this have such bad ADR mixing? I've already complained enough about the prologue travesty, so I'll leave that alone, ha. But another one that sticks out like a sore thumb is during the stadium speech, the line "Now, This bomb is armed! This bomb is mobile! And the identity of the trigger man is a mystery, for one of you holds the detonator!" doesn't match at all with the rest of his voice in terms of muffle and stadium feedback.

My biggest gripe with the scene was the inflection in his voice during the, "Gotham! Take control! Take control of your city!" line.

During the leaked cell phone video, the line sounded pretty epic and, for lack of a better word, "inspiring", as far as the message behind that whole scene goes. The way Tom re-did the lines sounded to me like he decided, "I want to try it the opposite way," and just decided on the first delivery he spit out.

In other words, it sounded awkward and a lot more lame than the original leaked video did.

 

[BatLobster]

She did say something to the effect of, "This was the only way to stop them from trying to kill me" after the gates lock. Her tone was stern, but not totally unapologetic. Bruce can at least assume that she didn't take any joy in setting him up, and therefore is not a true enemy who actually wants him dead.

With a nuke about to go off, he really doesn't have much to lose by trusting her. Even if she skips town, at least she'll have blown up the bridge blockade for other people to escape from. Bruce just has a hunch that she's got more of a heroic streak in her and he's proven right.

 

[gogorock]

She did say something to the effect of, "This was the only way to stop them from trying to kill me" after the gates lock. Her tone was stern, but not totally unapologetic. Bruce can at least assume that she didn't take any joy in setting him up, and therefore is not a true enemy who actually wants him dead.

With a nuke about to go off, he really doesn't have much to lose by trusting her. Even if she skips town, at least she'll have blown up the bridge blockade for other people to escape from. Bruce just has a hunch that she's got more of a heroic streak in her and he's proven right.

+1 t:

 

[JaD]

Something bugged me about the movie when I watched it the first couple times and made me even more frustrated after reading Lindy Hemming’s comments about Bane’s backstory that was cut and early makeshift mask when he was training.

It was the shot of the doctor slowly lifting the piece of cloth like “Let’s see my work here.” It just felt so weak and was as lame as showing a shot of the doctor examining a scalpel on a table, or washing his hands in a sink. It’s like that’s all we get really? Nothing really and pretty pointless. I also hated the fact that they actually showed that moment twice In the movie and nothing extra was shown. Just a “dramatic” lift of a piece of cloth on an operated Bane.