The Dark Knight Rises In hindsight what changes would you do - Part 1

[Anno_Domini]

Here's a question and I think it suits this thread without making a new one...

would you have added some other comic characters in Nolan's trilogy? Say, for example, Harvey Bullock or Hamilton Hill as the mayor?

 

[JackWhite]

Here's a question and I think it suits this thread without making a new one...

would you have added some other comic characters in Nolan's trilogy? Say, for example, Harvey Bullock or Hamilton Hill as the mayor?

Foley could have easily been Bullock. Not sure if Modine would have played him, but his character fit the bill, that's for sure.

 

[Anno_Domini]

Indeed. I think the arc works perfectly too. A semi-wary cop under Gordon that tries to outdo him by capturing Batman and then being inspired by the hero in the end to lead the GCPD. If it was Bullock though, I don't think I'd want him to die in the end.

For some reason, I always wanted to see Rupert Thorne in a live-action film, but I can't picture a right spot for Thorne to be in anywhere in the trilogy.

And if TDKR ever continued with Blake as the new Batman, I would love to see Tony Zucco being used as the one responsible for his(Blake) father's death. Maybe with all the new gear he has, Blake starts to finally investigate into his father's death and that's where he finds out about Zucco.

 

[The Navigator]

Indeed. I think the arc works perfectly too. A semi-wary cop under Gordon that tries to outdo him by capturing Batman and then being inspired by the hero in the end to lead the GCPD. If it was Bullock though, I don't think I'd want him to die in the end.

For some reason, I always wanted to see Rupert Thorne in a live-action film, but I can't picture a right spot for Thorne to be in anywhere in the trilogy.

And if TDKR ever continued with Blake as the new Batman, I would love to see Tony Zucco being used as the one responsible for his(Blake) father's death. Maybe with all the new gear he has, Blake starts to finally investigate into his father's death and that's where he finds out about Zucco.

Rupert Thorne would have worked pretty well replacing Carmine Falcone in Begins.

 

[Ryan]

I think if I could have had Nolan change something, I would have liked to have seen Batman be a bit similar to the one in TDKReturns. Of course it couldn't be the same, but with the rage he exhibited with the Joker in the interrogation room and using the sonar device to spy on all of gotham, I would have liked to have seen him becoming more and more paranoid and militaristic.

 

[Anno_Domini]

I do like the idea of Bruce being this depressed man in TDKRises that was just looking for a reason to return as Batman, but I do think he should've been much wiser. Something I didn't get in Nolan's trilogy was how Bruce Wayne never became wiser. Even in the film where the majority of Batfans love, Bruce was still never that bright in TDK. He seemed the wisest in the first film and only seemed like he "dumbed down" with each following film.

 

[kvz5]

I do think he should've been much wiser. Something I didn't get in Nolan's trilogy was how Bruce Wayne never became wiser. Even in the film where the majority of Batfans love, Bruce was still never that bright in TDK. He seemed the wisest in the first film and only seemed like he "dumbed down" with each following film.

Yeah, I agree there. I think he was fine in BB and TDK (although I would've loved more examples of his wits) but in TDKR... it was just bad. I just hated how everyone was outsmarting him. I like that at least in BB he was able to think steps ahead of Earle and was able to buy the Wayne stocks or that in TDK he built the sonar device. It's weird... In TDKR, there was a line about Bruce being very paranoid and yet he's done stuff that a paranoid person won't do.

 

[Anno_Domini]

Even in TDK Bruce seemed a bit off...trying to spit out the word submarine where Fox had to help him with. Those "poor choice of words" of Joker letting Rachel go. Running straight into Joker when he should've been smarter to not even let Joker get in his head that quick in the game, letting Joker go when he should've focused on Joker ever since the ending of BB when Gordon brought him up(seriously, Bruce should've thought it was a pretty big deal when Gordon brought it up in their "first meeting").

The best part of TDK, the final battle, is when Batman actually seemed to really be this intelligent beast in how he handled the SWAT, the hostages and Joker's goons all at once.

But, building the sonar device doesn't make him wise. He was simply paranoid it seemed to built such an unethical machine.

 

[The Navigator]

Even in TDK Bruce seemed a bit off...trying to spit out the word submarine where Fox had to help him with.

I always thought he was about to say bat, and Fox deflected to maintain "plausible deniability" or whatevs.

 

[The Joker]

I always thought he was about to say bat, and Fox deflected to maintain "plausible deniability" or whatevs.

That's how I took it as well.

I do think Bruce was quite smart in TDK, showing plenty of his wits and smarts. The marked bills in the mob's money. Knocking out Dent and stashing him away safely before Joker and his men came in. Getting the fingerprints of the shattered bullet. Wisely using the daylight hours to still be proactive in stopping crime like going to Thomas Schiff's apartment, and saving Reese's life in Lambo (both of which he achieved with detective work before hand). He even learned to not under estimate the Joker after being badly burned by him, seeing right through the Prewitt building set up as being more than it seemed; "It's not that simple. With the Joker it never is".

 

[JackWhite]

Even in TDK Bruce seemed a bit off...trying to spit out the word submarine where Fox had to help him with. Those "poor choice of words" of Joker letting Rachel go. Running straight into Joker when he should've been smarter to not even let Joker get in his head that quick in the game, letting Joker go when he should've focused on Joker ever since the ending of BB when Gordon brought him up(seriously, Bruce should've thought it was a pretty big deal when Gordon brought it up in their "first meeting").

The best part of TDK, the final battle, is when Batman actually seemed to really be this intelligent beast in how he handled the SWAT, the hostages and Joker's goons all at once.

But, building the sonar device doesn't make him wise. He was simply paranoid it seemed to built such an unethical machine.

lol, I heard from another site that Bruce was actually going to say "Sonar, like a....bat" but then Lucius cuts him off.

Anyways, I felt Bruce's wits were definitely at there best in BB and TDK. But there has to be a back and forth with the protagonist and the antagonist; otherwise you just don't have a compelling movie.

TDKR, was a little strange though. There are these really slick moments with Bruce's quick wits, like when he quickly deduces the finger print dust Selina left, how he quickly goes into the bat-cave and not only gets a rundown on Selina but totally has her figured out with what her next move will be with the pearls. Then you have him not only track her down at the ball, but he pretty much spits back her criminal profile verbatim to her.

But yeah, it seemed to me like in the first two films, Bruce tried to play dumb when around Lucius a lot of the time, even though he knows very well that Fox knows he's Batman. Like when Fox comes to Bruce about his suspicions of Lau in illegal dealings. Bruce is very nonchalant in telling him "OK, cancel the deal", then Fox realizes Bruce already knew.

I guess you could say there was a regression in TDKR with Bruce's cleverness, but he seemed just fine when he finally got out of the pit, lol.

 

[Anno_Domini]

There are great "smart moments" in all three films and you'll be lying to yourself if you won't agree with it about TDKR, but overall, I always felt like Nolan just dumbed Bruce down film after film. You can assume Bruce would say such, but I don't buy it...especially when Fox could have said a bat as well. Guess what you want I suppose, but that is an example of mine where I find Bruce to have a few genius moments in TDK and TDKR, but for the most of it...Bruce is just never completely smart as he is in BB.

 

[The Navigator]

You can assume Bruce would say such, but I don't buy it...especially when Fox could have said a bat as well.

Yeah...why wouldn't a guy who dresses up like a bat find a portable sonar device ironic/amusing? Submarine does make more sense, I agree.

 

[JackWhite]

That's how I took it as well.

I do think Bruce was quite smart in TDK, showing plenty of his wits and smarts. The marked bills in the mob's money. Knocking out Dent and stashing him away safely before Joker and his men came in. Getting the fingerprints of the shattered bullet. Wisely using the daylight hours to still be proactive in stopping crime like going to Thomas Schiff's apartment, and saving Reese's life in Lambo (both of which he achieved with detective work before hand). He even learned to not under estimate the Joker after being badly burned by him, seeing right through the Prewitt building set up as being more than it seemed; "It's not that simple. With the Joker it never is".

Yeah, this too.

The only time the Joker gets the better of him is when he switches the locations of Harvey and Rachel. But that's a pivotal moment in the film and it happens in the middle of the movie, so I don't see the problem with that.

The whole going after Bane thing just needed a better explanation of what his plan was when he went underground with Catwoman to find him. Bruce does tell Alfred "If this man is everything that you say he is; then this city needs me", so in saying that it's not like Bruce underestimated Bane completely. I felt Bruce was just too hungry and anxious to return as Batman, both by his need for Batman and then feeling it was his obligation to Gotham after seeing just how much of a potential threat Bane could very well be.

 

[Anno_Domini]

Yeah...why wouldn't a guy who dresses up like a bat find a portable sonar device ironic/amusing? Submarine does make more sense, I agree.

When the guy who names a vehicle The Bat mentions submarine instead of a bat, why would I not suspect Bruce would use submarine as well?

 

[Anno_Domini]

Yeah, this too.

The only time the Joker gets the better of him is when he switches the locations of Harvey and Rachel. But that's a pivotal moment in the film and it happens in the middle of the movie, so I don't see the problem with that.

The whole going after Bane thing just needed a better explanation of what his plan was when he went underground with Catwoman to find him. Bruce does tell Alfred "If this man is everything that you say he is; then this city needs me", so in saying that it's not like Bruce underestimated Bane completely. I felt Bruce was just too hungry and anxious to return as Batman, both by his need for Batman and then feeling it was his obligation to Gotham after seeing just how much of a potential threat Bane could very well be.

Joker gets the better of Batman when Batman lets him get in his head during that chase scene and only in the last second swerves from hitting Joker. Batman even just forgets about Joker fully when Gordon even brings it up, which seems very important at the end of BB.

And I feel that Batman planned on meeting and fighting Bane...but Bane knew this was going to happen and in that regard, was a step ahead of Bats as well as prepped up in the idea that Batman would use his tricks(gadgets). But, alas, Batman was not using his intelligence in that scene and got too caught up in it.

 

[The Joker]

Yeah, this too.

The only time the Joker gets the better of him is when he switches the locations of Harvey and Rachel. But that's a pivotal moment in the film and it happens in the middle of the movie, so I don't see the problem with that.

The whole going after Bane thing just needed a better explanation of what his plan was when he went underground with Catwoman to find him. Bruce does tell Alfred "If this man is everything that you say he is; then this city needs me", so in saying that it's not like Bruce underestimated Bane completely. I felt Bruce was just too hungry and anxious to return as Batman, both by his need for Batman and then feeling it was his obligation to Gotham after seeing just how much of a potential threat Bane could very well be.

Exactly.

As for Batman "forgetting" about Joker, he never forgot about him at all. In the time between BB and TDK Joker just had not done anything yet to make him a priority threat above the mob. "One man or the entire mob? He can wait". He was a theatrical bank robber until TDK, which showed his rise in power to becoming the most prominent threat.

 

[Anno_Domini]

Should it really matter if Joker hadn't done anything since BB? Him being a killer should be enough for Batman to have done research on this guy and tried to look for him. Letting that "one man" wait is a clear example of what I am talking about of a dumbed down Bruce at certain moments of the trilogy. That "one man" is still a killer and needed to be caught.

 

[The Joker]

Organized crime unit of the city vs theatrical bank robber who's killed a few people. Batman had his priorities right at the time since he had no idea just how dangerous Joker would eventually become. The mob didn't even take Joker as a serious threat. "He's not the problem. He's a nobody". Even the amount of money he stole from them was considered peanuts in their eyes.

As for researching Joker, what is there to research? That he likes to steal money and kill his own men? Joker himself was a blank slate with no name, no history linked to his DNA, fingerprints or dental work. Batman had no more to go on than the Cops did when they arrested Joker.

 

[Anno_Domini]

So Batman couldn't do both? Helping out Gordon with the marked bills as well as following up on a case Gordon brings up at the end of BB? There could've been something Bruce could have done in trying to get some leverage on this mysterious character before TDK's events. He did say "I'll look into it.", but he doesn't for like a year it seems.

 

[The Joker]

Did you see Batman try and take out any of the other mob heads in BB at the same time he was after Falcone? No, because Falcone was considered the worst and biggest one, so Batman went after him first. That's what he does. He deals with the biggest problem first.

Looking into something is not the same as doing something about it. Obviously he did look into it ("Him again") and all he saw was a theatrical bank robber in a clown costume with "Another bunch of small timers" stealing piddly little amounts of the mob's money. Not the big priority. A criminal who could wait to be nailed.

 

[Anno_Domini]

And also that Falcone was the only head guy being shown in BB, lol.

But I still believe Batman could've been shown to having done more. A tie-in comic of sorts of Batman trying to get a lead with this Joker character would have been aces.

 

[BatLobster]

Bruce was definitely about to say "bat" when Fox cut him off, that's always how I've read the scene. That's why he's all like "tee hee" when he realizes the connection. It's the one moment in the film that acknowledges the connection between sonar and how bats "see".

 

[The Navigator]

When the guy who names a vehicle The Bat mentions submarine instead of a bat, why would I not suspect Bruce would use submarine as well?

Timing. In DKR Bruce had already retired from being Batman--
"These conversations used to end in an unusual request."
-"I'm retired."
"Let's have a look anyway."
He and Alfred are trying to get him engaged in living his life again through their own ends of the spectrum--in Lucius' case fancy toys with a less-than-subtle namedrop.

In TDK, they're still operating under "If you don't want to tell me what you're doing, if I'm asked I don't have to lie" mentality. Him finishing Bruce's sentence with submarine is essentially saying "I don't want to know."

 

[Anno_Domini]

That could be seen as an excuse as why Lucius names the vehicle The Bat.