The Dark Knight Rises In hindsight what changes would you do - Part 1

[TheBat812]

When the guy who names a vehicle The Bat mentions submarine instead of a bat, why would I not suspect Bruce would use submarine as well?

The whole joke here is that Bruce is going to say Bat, but Lucius cuts him off with 'submarine' to not be so obvious about it since they are in the middle of a secret operation. Lucius isn't really operating under the same 'don't ask, don't tell' antics of BB here, as he's actively involved in this operation.


Bruce in these films is never quite the same absurd genius he is in the comics. He's very intelligent and capable with technology, and he dabbles with investigation very effectively, but overall these films are more about his mission statement and the psychological issues and ramifications that led him to choose such a mission statement/goal in life than it is about him being a near superhuman, physically and mentally.

 

[BatmanBeyond]

That's how I took it as well.

I do think Bruce was quite smart in TDK, showing plenty of his wits and smarts. The marked bills in the mob's money. Knocking out Dent and stashing him away safely before Joker and his men came in. Getting the fingerprints of the shattered bullet. Wisely using the daylight hours to still be proactive in stopping crime like going to Thomas Schiff's apartment, and saving Reese's life in Lambo (both of which he achieved with detective work before hand). He even learned to not under estimate the Joker after being badly burned by him, seeing right through the Prewitt building set up as being more than it seemed; "It's not that simple. With the Joker it never is".

For such a thorough deconstruction of the character, TDK has quite a few moments/scenes that just 'scream' Batman. t:

Yeah, this too.

The only time the Joker gets the better of him is when he switches the locations of Harvey and Rachel. But that's a pivotal moment in the film and it happens in the middle of the movie, so I don't see the problem with that.

The whole going after Bane thing just needed a better explanation of what his plan was when he went underground with Catwoman to find him. Bruce does tell Alfred "If this man is everything that you say he is; then this city needs me", so in saying that it's not like Bruce underestimated Bane completely. I felt Bruce was just too hungry and anxious to return as Batman, both by his need for Batman and then feeling it was his obligation to Gotham after seeing just how much of a potential threat Bane could very well be.

Not to mention he basically had a death wish as well.

 

[FeedOnATreeFrog]

Not to mention he basically had a death wish as well.

a subconscious death wish.

 

[Anno_Domini]

The whole joke here is that Bruce is going to say Bat, but Lucius cuts him off with 'submarine' to not be so obvious about it since they are in the middle of a secret operation. Lucius isn't really operating under the same 'don't ask, don't tell' antics of BB here, as he's actively involved in this operation.


Bruce in these films is never quite the same absurd genius he is in the comics. He's very intelligent and capable with technology, and he dabbles with investigation very effectively, but overall these films are more about his mission statement and the psychological issues and ramifications that led him to choose such a mission statement/goal in life than it is about him being a near superhuman, physically and mentally.

It's fine if anyone wants to view it that way, but I never did when I saw that scene. It would have been totally fine if Fox mentioned "a bat" before Bruce could spit that word out, but he didn't. So I view it just as I see it.

Not to mention he basically had a death wish as well.

I think he wanted to die by sacrificing his life as Batman, but he certainly didn't plan on dying in the sewers where it wouldn't be seen as a sacrifice since it's just a small-time fight against Bane at the moment and that's why he was in a panic and used his gadgets against Bane since his strength wasn't enough. At that time, he didn't have a death wish but for the bigger picture with the state Bruce was in, he was ready to die as Batman this time around for sure.

 

[BatmanBeyond]

I think he wanted to die by sacrificing his life as Batman, but he certainly didn't plan on dying in the sewers where it wouldn't be seen as a sacrifice since it's just a small-time fight against Bane at the moment and that's why he was in a panic and used his gadgets against Bane since his strength wasn't enough. At that time, he didn't have a death wish but for the bigger picture with the state Bruce was in, he was ready to die as Batman this time around for sure.

It's interesting to note what Bane says to Bruce both during the fight and after it though: 'You fight like a younger man, nothing held back...admirable, but mistaken' and then 'You don't fear death, you welcome it'. Not to mention Bruce's own reaction after waking up in the pit - 'Why didn't you just...kill me?'. He was expecting and perhaps, like FeedOnATreeFrog suggests, subconsciously wishing to die.

 

[Anno_Domini]

But that goes along with what I'm saying. He is expecting to sacrifice his life this go around as a much older Batman, but not in the sewers. When he does lose to Bane, I'm sure he is surprised that Bane didn't end up killing him right at the spot as any other villain would have that Batman has faced in the past.

 

[BatmanBeyond]

But that goes along with what I'm saying. He is expecting to sacrifice his life this go around as a much older Batman, but not in the sewers. When he does lose to Bane, I'm sure he is surprised that Bane didn't end up killing him right at the spot as any other villain would have that Batman has faced in the past.

Yeah, don't get me wrong, I don't disagree with you. I was just remembering all of those lines and how they make sense together. It's rather creepy when Bane basically echoes Alfred's thoughts about Bruce.

 

[Anno_Domini]

Most of the lines were inside the Pit though besides Bane critiquing on Batman's fighting. On Bruce's behalf, I think he was in shock that Bane didn't kill him, but Bane is mostly aware of someone that would dress like a bat in night wouldn't fear death.

But, yes, Bane is definitely echoing Alfred's views on why Bruce is returning as Batman. I feel that the subtle mentions from them really makes the point across without just saying it right to the viewer.

 

[MAKAVELI25]

I do like the idea of Bruce being this depressed man in TDKRises that was just looking for a reason to return as Batman, but I do think he should've been much wiser. Something I didn't get in Nolan's trilogy was how Bruce Wayne never became wiser. Even in the film where the majority of Batfans love, Bruce was still never that bright in TDK. He seemed the wisest in the first film and only seemed like he "dumbed down" with each following film.

A-frickin-greed. I think Nolan tried too hard to make Bruce a layman, and that's just not Batman

 

[Anno_Domini]

^

Another thing that I remember a poster mentioned on this thread was that Batman should have been a bit paranoid like in TDK, but that idea shut down in TDK...Batman was slowly becoming a bit on the paranoid side even creating a massive sonar system to located Joker...Fox talked him out of what's ethical and what's not.

 

[Shikamaru]

That idea was ignored much like the many other things in TDK were ignored in TDKR.

 

[Anno_Domini]

Ignored?

But...Wayne WASN'T paranoid...which is what I am referring to as someone said Bruce should have been.

 

[Shikamaru]

I disagree. He totally became paranoid and more obsessive. Rachel's death is what pushed him to become more like that.

Always loved how he called the sonar device "beautiful". That is a fantastic and very accurate Batman moment. To everyone else, what Batman was doing was wrong, sickening, and disgusting. Batman doesn't see things that way. In his mind, it is something beautiful in a weird and twisted way.

 

[Anno_Domini]

No, no, no. Lol, again, read what I posted first man, haha.

He WAS for sure becoming paranoid, but Fox talked him down on what's ethical and what's not in the end. Because of that, Bruce shouldn't be paranoid in TDKR, and that's why it works that he isn't unlike TDKReturns.

 

[Shikamaru]

I don't believe Fox did manage to talk him down. If you're referring to the self-destruct code, that was installed prior to him even telling Fox about the machine.

 

[Anno_Domini]

But saying he'd quit wouldn't change Bruce's mind so suddenly to shut off the sonar. I think Fox definitely did talk him down into what's right and what's wrong....the irony of that ending is when Batman decided to take Dent's crimes.

 

[Shikamaru]

I'm confused now. You're saying he talked him down off-screen?

 

[Anno_Domini]

No, lol. That scene where Fox tells him that this is wrong and that spying isn't in his job description probably meant something to Bruce and that's why he gives Fox the password so quickly. A paranoid Batman shouldn't care that Fox would quit if this "beautiful" machine is in Wayne Enterprises, but he did.

 

[Dr. Fortress]

I wouldn't change a thing! Over the weekend I watched Begins, Dark knight and Rises. I think the mistake that most people do is they view and judge the trilogy by each movie and not as a whole. I you look at the trilogy as a whole story, you will appreciate it so much more.

That's the reason I don't have a favourite, I look at each movie as an integral part of a story.

Best. Trilogy. Ever.

 

[Dr. Fortress]

*if

 

[Shikamaru]

No, lol. That scene where Fox tells him that this is wrong and that spying isn't in his job description probably meant something to Bruce and that's why he gives Fox the password so quickly. A paranoid Batman shouldn't care that Fox would quit if this "beautiful" machine is in Wayne Enterprises, but he did.

Doubt he had such epiphany. He kept using the machine up till the end.

He would have gave him the password either way. Plus, the man may be a paranoid bats**t crazy freak but he is not stupid. Fox quitting would greatly hurt his company and even his career as Batman.

 

[Anno_Domini]

He kept using the machine because he could use the machine until the very end.

 

[Shikamaru]

I wouldn't change a thing! Over the weekend I watched Begins, Dark knight and Rises. I think the mistake that most people do is they view and judge the trilogy by each movie and not as a whole. I you look at the trilogy as a whole story, you will appreciate it so much more.

That's the reason I don't have a favourite, I look at each movie as an integral part of a story.

Best. Trilogy. Ever.

Looking at the trilogy as a whole is one of the main reasons why TDKR falls apart.

He kept using the machine because he could use the machine until the very end.

I think we should just agree to disagree on this one. We each have a different interpretation of that scene and both of our arguments just boil down to "Can't you just feel how Fox did/didn't make him see the light?!". That's going to get us nowhere. lol

 

[BatmanBeyond]

Looking at the trilogy as a whole is one of the main reasons why TDKR falls apart.

It's basically the opposite for me. When I look at the trilogy as a whole, TDKR is an excellent, worthy and fulfilling conclusion. When I look at them as separate movies though, TDKR is the one that stands on its own the poorest. That being said, I can't really hold that against it seeing as it's the third movie and the one that concludes the series.

 

[JackWhite]

I disagree. He totally became paranoid and more obsessive. Rachel's death is what pushed him to become more like that.

Always loved how he called the sonar device "beautiful". That is a fantastic and very accurate Batman moment. To everyone else, what Batman was doing was wrong, sickening, and disgusting. Batman doesn't see things that way. In his mind, it is something beautiful in a weird and twisted way.

Probably my favorite Batman moment in TDK. He's just so cold and fixated on finding the Joker at all costs. Even when Lucius tells him he will walk, Bruce just tells him "type in your name" and walks off, lol. Great scene.