The Dark Knight Rises You Have My Permission To Lounge - Part 1
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The Joker
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Ok I saw this earlier today with my friends. Just home now. Had plenty of time to process this movie as my friends and I went for a few beers and a proper chat about the movie afterward. I went in open minded but on my guard for potential awfulness. The movie was a hot mess. A rushed, sloppily edited, badly characterized, and very depressingly boring movie. Since my review contains spoilers, read at your own risk if you haven't seen it yet;
I want to give this movie a 4/10, but because Affleck's acting was so good, and the visuals were often great, and Irons and Adams made a good effort I am giving it a 5/10.
Zack Snyder needs to go ASAP. The DCCU is going to be crippled by this guy if he keeps directing the major movies like this and JL. He hasn't got a clue.
Starting with the good. Ben Affleck's performance. He played a great haunted Batman. I liked his chemistry with Irons. And when ever he was on screen he generally out acted and out classed them all with ease. He looked truly great in the Bat suit, although I thought he looked ridiculous in the dream sequence in a trenchcoat over the bat suit. Sometimes he suffered from 'teh puffy' look. But otherwise he was a feast for the eyes. His fight scenes were glorious. Truly like the Arkham games.
However his character is totally brought down by being a murderous swine of a Batman. What sticks in my throat even more is we are given no reason why he has become so murderous. Alfred hints that he wasn't always like this, or maybe he was just talking about things in general as the "It wasn't always like this" line is so vague. But either way it's a bastardization of Batman, and I hated every second of it. Made worse by the fact that nobody, not even Alfred, pulls him up on it. Making Alfred look as bad for letting it slide and still supporting a murderous vigilante.
Speaking of Alfred, Irons was solid, and had good chemistry with Affleck. But I never got that emotional bond feeling that you should get between Bruce and Alfred. They didn't feel close, or that they shared a personal connection or history. I'm not judging too harshly because hopefully it will be done more so in the Batman solo movie (if we get one).
Cavill's Superman in this is hands down the worst Superman we've had in the movies. Even Routh out classes him. He is a stoic character, who shows little emotional range other depression and self doubt. Cavill was so wooden in so many scenes, he failed to evoke any proper emotion in scenes that should have been emotion filled, and he was completed acted off the screen by Affleck. I feel like he had the same expression on his face for most of the movie. I don't entirely blame Cavill. The script and direction also share the blame for turning Superman into a wooden depressing bore.
Now for someone truly terrible in every way - Jesse Eisenberg as Lex Luthor. I say whole heartedly with no exaggeration that he is one of the worst CBM villains ever. He was a cartoonish caricature, with paper thin characterization, no clear motivation, and hammed up the movie as a truly annoying character. Why was he doing what he was doing? Why did he hate Superman so much? We get some fleeting mention of his dad hitting him, but it's never elaborated on. If you coughed you'd miss the line. He was always the worst part of the trailers for me, and people kept saying what we're seeing is just a facade act for his real menacing persona, but he was a cartoony ham all the way through.
The last scene with Batman is cringe worthy. The way he got his bald head was really anti climatic and dull. I haven't disliked a CBM villain this much since the trinity of woeful villains in The Amazing Spider-Man 2.
Now for the ladies. Amy Adams was decent. But somewhere between MOS and this what ever chemistry she and Cavill had fizzled out. I didn't feel much between them in this. Maybe it's because Cavill was so stoic and wooden this time around, but Amy was at least trying. But she can't achieve much when the effort was one way. I still really like her as Lois. Along with Affleck and Irons, she felt like she was actually giving a damn.
Gal Gadot was serviceable. The huge exaggeration about her scene stealing characterization is a classic example of fans totally over exaggerating something. Her entry into the movie saving Batman's butt was cool and all, she looked great in costume and kicked ass beautifully, but she was just an action piece. We learn almost nothing about her character, she has very little personality shown, and the bulk of her screen time is her being totally silent just observing stuff and looking hot. I'm sure she'll be a great Wonder Woman in her movie, but her presence here did not warrant the insane praise I've been reading about her.
Doomsday was one of the worst parts of the movie, and should never have been included. Half the time all I saw was electricity and fire and explosions around him, and I didn't know what the hell was going on. CGI characters were flying all over the place in CGI explosions.
It was also WAY too soon to do the death of Superman. Cavill's Superman has not earned that story yet. This is only his second outing, and there was just no emotional impact there, and I didn't believe the world grieving for him the way they did at the end. Only Lois and Martha's grief seemed in any way real.
Now regarding the actual Batman vs Superman conflict, it lasted all of what 7 minutes? They shared so little screen time together, most of it not even them in any conflict. The way it was resolved with the whole Martha thing was absolutely ridiculous. I thought people were half kidding when I read about it, and there was more to it than they were letting on. But no Batman ends the fight and sides with him just because Superman has a mother named Martha who was captured. Lazy and stupid writing wrapped into one. I don't know what they were smoking when they thought that was the way this epic showdown fans have been waiting years to see should end. Not enough face palms in the world to do it justice for how silly that was.
The amount of dream sequences in this was so frustrating and half the time I had no idea what was going on with them. The worst one had to be Batman's one in Mad Max land. Utterly pointless and a total WTF sequence.
The movie was choppy, rushed, badly edited and never gave the audience a chance to breathe and absorb the rapid succession of quick cutting scenes. I feel like it was several movies chopped into pieces and crammed sloppily into one. I hear there is an uncut version coming. There must be at least another 30 minutes of footage to add on.
The JL email cameos did nothing for me. I really didn't like how Flash looked. The fact Superman is still alive at the end makes all the dramatic stuff about his death seem totally pointless. At least the comics showed his loved ones and colleagues live without him, miss him, and mourn him for a long time before his eventual return. There was fall out and consequences explored there.
However his character is totally brought down by being a murderous swine of a Batman. What sticks in my throat even more is we are given no reason why he has become so murderous. Alfred hints that he wasn't always like this, or maybe he was just talking about things in general as the "It wasn't always like this" line is so vague. But either way it's a bastardization of Batman, and I hated every second of it. Made worse by the fact that nobody, not even Alfred, pulls him up on it. Making Alfred look as bad for letting it slide and still supporting a murderous vigilante.
Speaking of Alfred, Irons was solid, and had good chemistry with Affleck. But I never got that emotional bond feeling that you should get between Bruce and Alfred. They didn't feel close, or that they shared a personal connection or history. I'm not judging too harshly because hopefully it will be done more so in the Batman solo movie (if we get one).
Cavill's Superman in this is hands down the worst Superman we've had in the movies. Even Routh out classes him. He is a stoic character, who shows little emotional range other depression and self doubt. Cavill was so wooden in so many scenes, he failed to evoke any proper emotion in scenes that should have been emotion filled, and he was completed acted off the screen by Affleck. I feel like he had the same expression on his face for most of the movie. I don't entirely blame Cavill. The script and direction also share the blame for turning Superman into a wooden depressing bore.
Now for someone truly terrible in every way - Jesse Eisenberg as Lex Luthor. I say whole heartedly with no exaggeration that he is one of the worst CBM villains ever. He was a cartoonish caricature, with paper thin characterization, no clear motivation, and hammed up the movie as a truly annoying character. Why was he doing what he was doing? Why did he hate Superman so much? We get some fleeting mention of his dad hitting him, but it's never elaborated on. If you coughed you'd miss the line. He was always the worst part of the trailers for me, and people kept saying what we're seeing is just a facade act for his real menacing persona, but he was a cartoony ham all the way through.
The last scene with Batman is cringe worthy. The way he got his bald head was really anti climatic and dull. I haven't disliked a CBM villain this much since the trinity of woeful villains in The Amazing Spider-Man 2.
Now for the ladies. Amy Adams was decent. But somewhere between MOS and this what ever chemistry she and Cavill had fizzled out. I didn't feel much between them in this. Maybe it's because Cavill was so stoic and wooden this time around, but Amy was at least trying. But she can't achieve much when the effort was one way. I still really like her as Lois. Along with Affleck and Irons, she felt like she was actually giving a damn.
Gal Gadot was serviceable. The huge exaggeration about her scene stealing characterization is a classic example of fans totally over exaggerating something. Her entry into the movie saving Batman's butt was cool and all, she looked great in costume and kicked ass beautifully, but she was just an action piece. We learn almost nothing about her character, she has very little personality shown, and the bulk of her screen time is her being totally silent just observing stuff and looking hot. I'm sure she'll be a great Wonder Woman in her movie, but her presence here did not warrant the insane praise I've been reading about her.
Doomsday was one of the worst parts of the movie, and should never have been included. Half the time all I saw was electricity and fire and explosions around him, and I didn't know what the hell was going on. CGI characters were flying all over the place in CGI explosions.
It was also WAY too soon to do the death of Superman. Cavill's Superman has not earned that story yet. This is only his second outing, and there was just no emotional impact there, and I didn't believe the world grieving for him the way they did at the end. Only Lois and Martha's grief seemed in any way real.
Now regarding the actual Batman vs Superman conflict, it lasted all of what 7 minutes? They shared so little screen time together, most of it not even them in any conflict. The way it was resolved with the whole Martha thing was absolutely ridiculous. I thought people were half kidding when I read about it, and there was more to it than they were letting on. But no Batman ends the fight and sides with him just because Superman has a mother named Martha who was captured. Lazy and stupid writing wrapped into one. I don't know what they were smoking when they thought that was the way this epic showdown fans have been waiting years to see should end. Not enough face palms in the world to do it justice for how silly that was.
The amount of dream sequences in this was so frustrating and half the time I had no idea what was going on with them. The worst one had to be Batman's one in Mad Max land. Utterly pointless and a total WTF sequence.
The movie was choppy, rushed, badly edited and never gave the audience a chance to breathe and absorb the rapid succession of quick cutting scenes. I feel like it was several movies chopped into pieces and crammed sloppily into one. I hear there is an uncut version coming. There must be at least another 30 minutes of footage to add on.
The JL email cameos did nothing for me. I really didn't like how Flash looked. The fact Superman is still alive at the end makes all the dramatic stuff about his death seem totally pointless. At least the comics showed his loved ones and colleagues live without him, miss him, and mourn him for a long time before his eventual return. There was fall out and consequences explored there.
I want to give this movie a 4/10, but because Affleck's acting was so good, and the visuals were often great, and Irons and Adams made a good effort I am giving it a 5/10.
Zack Snyder needs to go ASAP. The DCCU is going to be crippled by this guy if he keeps directing the major movies like this and JL. He hasn't got a clue.
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The Shape
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Shauner, I think that's actually a fair review and score from you. 3/5.
Some of the things you disliked and didn't care for are things that I liked and wasn't bothered by, and I do agree with some of your negative points. For instance, the JL nuggets could have been cut altogether and the film would've been shorter, tighter, and more focused on the BvS conflict but I didn't mind them because, while the film was about Batman and Superman, it's also meant to be a world-building, universe-opening crossover "event" that leads to the eventual formation of the JL.
I find the people who are throwing out scores like 1/5, 1/10, or 3/10 to be absolutely ridiculous, as if the film is completely irredeemable and tells no story whatsoever. There's a good film in there somewhere, amidst all of its flaws or potentially unfavorable elements for some people.
Some of the things you disliked and didn't care for are things that I liked and wasn't bothered by, and I do agree with some of your negative points. For instance, the JL nuggets could have been cut altogether and the film would've been shorter, tighter, and more focused on the BvS conflict but I didn't mind them because, while the film was about Batman and Superman, it's also meant to be a world-building, universe-opening crossover "event" that leads to the eventual formation of the JL.
I find the people who are throwing out scores like 1/5, 1/10, or 3/10 to be absolutely ridiculous, as if the film is completely irredeemable and tells no story whatsoever. There's a good film in there somewhere, amidst all of its flaws or potentially unfavorable elements for some people.
BatLobster
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I'm floating around a 6/10 right now myself....but that might fluctuate in either direction with time.
I will say, this movie really did remind me a lot of ASM-2 in many ways. The only reason I think I give it a bit more of a pass is that building up a "Spider-Man universe" was such a dumb, annoying idea from the word go. Setting up a DC Universe on the other hand is a pretty monumental thing that a lot of fans have waited decades for. But, putting on my critic hat....a lot of that stuff feels shoehorned in and really hurts the flow of the film. And I find myself wishing that the film really was a bit more focused on the "Batman v Superman" part of it. Snyder's comments about the movie being about the two of them figuring each other out had me interested, but it just felt like none of that really happened on screen.
In retrospect, I think the marketing for this movie was downright atrocious. The Comic Con Trailer should've never happened. I'm sorry, but it was too robust of a trailer to release that early. That put them in a predicament for how to make the subsequent trailers "bigger". That third trailer was a real bad misfire, as most agree. Then the fourth trailer felt a lot like damage control, but started to tip the overall accumulation of footage to the point where it becomes easy to start guessing what's going to happen next based on which scenes you haven't seen yet. I will admit that the order of events that I had imagined in my head for the movie was COMPLETELY off based on the trailers, so kudos there, but they still just showed too much footage and should've saved some of the cooler moments.
Curious to hear your thoughts JackWhite!
I will say, this movie really did remind me a lot of ASM-2 in many ways. The only reason I think I give it a bit more of a pass is that building up a "Spider-Man universe" was such a dumb, annoying idea from the word go. Setting up a DC Universe on the other hand is a pretty monumental thing that a lot of fans have waited decades for. But, putting on my critic hat....a lot of that stuff feels shoehorned in and really hurts the flow of the film. And I find myself wishing that the film really was a bit more focused on the "Batman v Superman" part of it. Snyder's comments about the movie being about the two of them figuring each other out had me interested, but it just felt like none of that really happened on screen.
In retrospect, I think the marketing for this movie was downright atrocious. The Comic Con Trailer should've never happened. I'm sorry, but it was too robust of a trailer to release that early. That put them in a predicament for how to make the subsequent trailers "bigger". That third trailer was a real bad misfire, as most agree. Then the fourth trailer felt a lot like damage control, but started to tip the overall accumulation of footage to the point where it becomes easy to start guessing what's going to happen next based on which scenes you haven't seen yet. I will admit that the order of events that I had imagined in my head for the movie was COMPLETELY off based on the trailers, so kudos there, but they still just showed too much footage and should've saved some of the cooler moments.
Curious to hear your thoughts JackWhite!
The Joker
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Just as bad in my book. Keaton blew up a chemical factory full of Joker's goons, shot down a load more in the street, strapped a bomb to a goon and smiled at him before he blew up, incinerated another one with his Batmobile turbine.
I'm not going to be biased. They were both equally bad on that score.
I'm not going to be biased. They were both equally bad on that score.
BatLobster
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Yes/no for me. You have to take into account that it's a different Batman who has been through completely different experiences, and there are clues in the movie that he wasn't always like this. Whereas with Keaton's Batman, we can only pretty much assume that he's always been like that.
BUT, the way it's pulled off in this film...it's like Snyder really wants to shove it in your face how brutal and merciless he is.
BUT, the way it's pulled off in this film...it's like Snyder really wants to shove it in your face how brutal and merciless he is.
Travesty
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BatLobster
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I'm glad you loved the movie though Trav, truly. I respect the opinion of those who loved it, there's a lot to love in the movie regardless of how one feels about how well (or not) it all came together. It would be more depressing if everyone here hated it, honestly.
Tacit Ronin
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There was supposed to be another villain after Doomsday according to Snyder. Who knew it was Zach himself.
Spider-Aziz
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Whoa, Bob wasn't kidding.
I knew it since the get go.
Tha frek?
Bob was not exaggerating.
You and moviebob should be buddies.
This sounds like the second animated Titanic movie.
I will watch this like I watch the new Ninja Turtles movies, something incredibly stupid.
shauner111
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I think the JL nuggets were dumb too. [BLACKOUT]Aquaman looked silly or maybe im still not a fan of that character? Cyborg was bad CG in that clip. Flash's suit is terrible.[/BLACKOUT]
I would love to do my own edit where i trim out the JL nuggets, some dream sequences [BLACKOUT](what the hell was Jonathan Kent rambling on about lmao?)[/BLACKOUT], cut the final battle down just a bit if i can without being as choppy as Snyder
Keaton's Batman is a straight up killer. Always was. This version [BLACKOUT]may have started out like Bale's, went the wrong way as he got older, and could return to his glory days. But they don't elaborate so we have to go on what info we have. So if you were to isolate this movie from possible past experiences or possible future developments, he's just as bad as Keaton but more graphic because this modern audience can take it.[/BLACKOUT]
The desert-dream sequence had NO business in the theatrical cut. Or maybe it could have been trimmed, at the very least. It was confusing. I can't imagine what the general audience was thinking [BLACKOUT]since they have no idea who Darkseid is, what those parademons are, they don't know if that's Flash or not so they're not focused on what he's saying but rather who the hell is this guy screaming? They're probably confused by Batman's coat, the fact that he's snatching guns and shooting people, snapping necks.[/BLACKOUT]
It's like WTF is going on here? And im a fan who knows these characters.
The ending was really corny in acting and writing. I mean [BLACKOUT]the Lex scene in prison. How does he know about Darkseid again? Did i miss something?[/BLACKOUT]
But i did love Bruce's final words in the film.
I would love to do my own edit where i trim out the JL nuggets, some dream sequences [BLACKOUT](what the hell was Jonathan Kent rambling on about lmao?)[/BLACKOUT], cut the final battle down just a bit if i can without being as choppy as Snyder
Keaton's Batman is a straight up killer. Always was. This version [BLACKOUT]may have started out like Bale's, went the wrong way as he got older, and could return to his glory days. But they don't elaborate so we have to go on what info we have. So if you were to isolate this movie from possible past experiences or possible future developments, he's just as bad as Keaton but more graphic because this modern audience can take it.[/BLACKOUT]
I agree. It's not horrible. It doesn't deserve 30 percent ratings. More like 50 at the very least.
The desert-dream sequence had NO business in the theatrical cut. Or maybe it could have been trimmed, at the very least. It was confusing. I can't imagine what the general audience was thinking [BLACKOUT]since they have no idea who Darkseid is, what those parademons are, they don't know if that's Flash or not so they're not focused on what he's saying but rather who the hell is this guy screaming? They're probably confused by Batman's coat, the fact that he's snatching guns and shooting people, snapping necks.[/BLACKOUT]
It's like WTF is going on here? And im a fan who knows these characters.
The ending was really corny in acting and writing. I mean [BLACKOUT]the Lex scene in prison. How does he know about Darkseid again? Did i miss something?[/BLACKOUT]
But i did love Bruce's final words in the film.
Green Goblin
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Dreading this tomorrow, reactions here are so diverse.
I liked Watchmen, does that make me more likely to enjoy it?
I liked Watchmen, does that make me more likely to enjoy it?
The Joker
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Not likely. Watchmen wasn't a choppily edited loud mess.
Spider-Aziz
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Not really, Watchmen was mostly a panel to panel adaption, so characterization was not lost.
From what I understand about this one based on various reviews; characterization here is worse than Web of Shadows making Luke Cage teach Spider-Man how to move fast and swiftly.
DACrowe
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Worse in the sense that Burton made no qualms that he was making "his" version of Batman as a fairy tale where Catwoman was a vending allegory for feminism risen from the dead, and Penguin was a circus freak that wanted to murder children, and Commissioner Gordon was just some bloke who got Batman coffee.
The fact that Snyder is trying to build a "mythological world" that captures the comics but so fundamentally fails seems worse. Plus, there is almost a sadistic joy in the way he films Batman stabbing people or shooting people. To me it is again more like The Dark Knight Strikes Again and all latter day Frank Miller Batman comics, which are categorically awful.
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Does it suggest in his younger years Batfleck didn't kill?
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[BLACKOUT]Alfred says that it wasn't always like this, but then the next line suggests he's somehow referring to Superman as though Superman existing made Bruce start killing and branding people for some reason. We really have no indication one way or the other, I don't think. At least nothing to draw a definitive conclusion either way.[/BLACKOUT]
The Shape
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Before beginning to create Doomsday, Lex had gained access the Kryptonian scout ship from MOS, which it was said to have access to information on every planet and alien race. He then asked the AI on the ship to "teach him", so it can be assumed that this is how knows of Darkseid's existence, powers, and/or potential motivations.
The Joker
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I've seen you voting on polls in the BvS forum. If you haven't seen it yet why are you doing that?
To answer your question no. Nothing is explicitly said that suggests that. Just a vague line from Alfred about things used to be different. Which could mean anything.
The Shape
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You have it a little twisted.
Bruce says something about how things are the same as they've always been, and Alfred then says something like, "No, it has NOT always been like this" after throwing the bat-brand newspaper headline in front of Bruce. Alfred then further expands on this by explaining what causes good men to turn cruel -- clearly referring to Bruce/Batman.
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Filmfreak
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I must be in the minority but I found pretty much all the performances kind of wooden, including Affleck's. With a few exceptions that were mostly good moments rather than overall performances, I didn't really like the acting in the movie. Then again it's really hard to act in something like that.
I'm also definitely in the minority for this but I liked the first 90 minutes more than the action parts near the end. I thought the story had some potential and I personally didn't get bored but the action bits after the two heroes' fight were really silly and poorly orchestrated for my taste. Plus the plot got completely sideways.
I'm also definitely in the minority for this but I liked the first 90 minutes more than the action parts near the end. I thought the story had some potential and I personally didn't get bored but the action bits after the two heroes' fight were really silly and poorly orchestrated for my taste. Plus the plot got completely sideways.
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