Arrow What should be the next Arrow?

[mr. peasant]

Mr. Peasant: I hear what you're saying and I can agree with some of it (especially the Cyborg stuff but that's for another topic to battle on, after watching Iron Man 3 I think we could cheat to make it look good) but are you really trying to tell me that people wouldn't want to watch fights that are both intense and physical and have magic?

Short answer? Yes. But I think it's fair for me to explain myself. To elaborate, every genre has its hardline lovers and haters; where the former will only tune into something of a particular genre and the latter who will tune out for that same reason. For niche genres like sci-fi, fantasy and comic book superheros, that ratio is heavily weighted towards the latter group. As such, such shows (and movies, and books, and musicals, etc) must work that much harder to overcome the stigma and to be taken seriously.

A relevant example that comes to mind was The Cape, which while not based on an actual comic book superhero, modeled itself in that vein. On the surface, the show was not particularly terrible - especially when compared to television shows in general - yet people were mocking its premise from the word go and refused to give the show a chance due to its comic book superhero aesthetic. In short, there wasn't enough else there to make up for the fact that it was a "comic book superhero" type show.

Cause that's what SHAZAM! would be. It would have fist fights, in my version Billy is trained by WildKat so that he's just a kid who has super-strength he can actually be a formidable opponent. And that's not even going into the magic part of it. He can summon lightning and do other spells that'll be really epic to watch. To use another source to prove this play Injustice: Gods Among Us. They have both SHAZAM! and Black Adam and fighting them is really tough. And making an epic trailer featuring magic isn't hard (see: Harry Potter)

You know... lightning is one of those powers that sound better on paper than in practice. Lots of shows have done it before. And every time, it's never as earth shatteringly awesome as it thinks itself to be.

Oh and the age thing can work, I don't want a fully adult SHAZAM! I'd rather have someone who's like 5 or so years older and more built while Billy is lanky. That's how me and my cousin are and it works when you put us next to each other.

The difference I'm talking about is not just physical but mental. The mental difference between a young child and a full adult is a lot more night and day compared to a teen and adult.

"My name is Billy Batson. I was just an orphan living in Fawcett City until one day I met the wizard. He told me that magic was returning to the world and that many would come to steal it. Worst of all his old apprentice Black Adam had been revived and was bent on claiming the world as his own. To stop these threats he blessed me with incredible power so that I may be become Earth's Mightiest Mortal. That when I call down the power I become.....SHAZAM!"

See? Much more epic.

Actually, no. I can honestly say that I literally rolled my eyes as I read the description. And I like magic, fantasy and comic book superheroes. Specifically it's the parts where it went "... until one day I met the wizard", "... magic was returning to the world and that many would come to steal it" and "To stop these threats, he blessed me with incredible power...". Those are the kinds of details that would work great in cartoons or media aimed primarily at children without also trying to target adults.

Taken at face value, there's absolutely nothing in that description/premise/summary that would appeal to a general adult audience.

 

[Justin]

"My name is Oliver Queen, I was alone on an island for years and now that I'm off of it I'm going to wield a bow and arrow and save my city...."

"My name is Billy Batson. I was just an orphan living in Fawcett City until one day I met the wizard. He told me that magic was returning to the world and that many would come to steal it. Worst of all his old apprentice Black Adam had been revived and was bent on claiming the world as his own. To stop these threats he blessed me with incredible power so that I may be become Earth's Mightiest Mortal. That when I call down the power I become.....SHAZAM!"

I genuinely prefer your Arrow description to your Shazam one. In my opinion (and it is just that) Green Arrow can sell purely on the fact that he wears a hood and fights with a bow and arrow. Or that he is a loudmouth playboy reformed after 5 years. Or that he wears green and is a modern day Robin Hood. It's cool. Where as the first thing I think of when I even read the name Shazam is that genie out of Disney. Then I hear he's a kid, then I hear he's practically invincible etc etc. It's not cool.

As peasant said, there was a series of The Cape about a hero who used his cape as a weapon, had a prime time slot and known actors yet just didn't work. People can't take these kind of things seriously as they can with an arrow to the throat. I think you're flogging a dead horse here. I don't see any mainstream appeal for it whatsoever. But you could always write an independent fan-series or something.

 

[BlackMagicWolf]

I'm going to be the bigger man here and ask that we all move on. I'm not going to move from my position on SHAZAM! (and yes I do have rebuttals for everything you two said) and it's clear that you two won't either so let's call it a draw and be done with it.

I still want to hear what other people think the next Arrow should be. We've had our little war over whether this would work or not, now let's get back to the original topic.

 

[Ryder]

Firestorm I could give you, he's only made a few appearances outside the comics so that might be a hard sell, and the budget just for the costume would be need to be high (see: fiery head).

If CW can do Tommorrow people, the 100 and other of those sci fi shows that has many people with special abilities they sure as hell wont have problem with doing a series were one or two people have abilities ie a Firestorm show.

And maybe they dont even need to have a fiery head in the costume, they can change it a bit and just give him a costume with a hood or something. Something modern and simple like both Arrow and Smallville did with heroes costumes. They can tone down his powers and costume to be more "realistic" like

Anyway on other more feasible project, im still into The Flash.

It can't be Gotham Knights, cuz the Bat-embargo. WB is very protective about it's cash cow. If Superman makes a billion dollars, the Superman-embargo will be just as strong. This goes for all the heroes who potentially have films: WW, Flash, Green Lantern, even Aquaman.

You are right there, those 5 characters are being very stricted right now, because DC is thinking of making individual movies and or Justice league movie. So they are kind of off limits. I hope they make a Flash movie soon, to make up for not having a TV show or animation.

 

[BlackMagicWolf]

Yeah I see your point for Firestorm, toning it down a little may help but I'm still not sure.

That's one of the other reasons I'm sure that SHAZAM! could work because it'd be two actors playing one role, the costume would be easy and you can fake the lightning transformation by just having a white flash to symbolize it. Easy and cheap. And powers would easy to do outside of some of the lightning attacks and magic he can do.

Flash would be fun, they did speed for Smallville so I know it can work. In terms of the Bat-Embargo the only way (I think) would be GCPD. Have Gordon, Bullock, Montoya, Ramirez, Fitz, etc. as a group tackling the non-power villains like Black Mask, Zsasz, Riddler, etc.

 

[mr. peasant]

As I mentioned before Wolf; with Shazam, the main problem isn't the technical aspects of filming but the concept itself being a hard sell to a general adult audience. It's straight up classic kids TV fare.


Okay. In the interest of keeping this thread alive and putting my money where my mouth is instead of just safely critiquing the ideas of others, here's my idea. Which hero? Red Tornado. A little off the beaten track but I'm convinced there's a story to be told here. The premise would go something along the lines of this:

An advanced robot of unknown origin gets accidentally found and activated by Kathy Sutton during a fire. The robot's first action was to save her life and to avert the disaster with its powers; thus gaining public attention. It later becomes clear that the robot is indeed sentient. However, "he" has no memories as to who created him or why. Meanwhile, mysterious black-suited men start coming after him - determining to acquire the technology he represents - while other robotic marvels begin emerging from the woodwork. Who could be creating them? And why are they coming for him?

The initial themes of the show would be Red Tornado's quest to find his creator and the reason for his existence (the absence of a Justice Society and RT's varied origins would mean even comic book readers would be waiting to find out) and the question of whether a machine can "learn" emotions or if that wouldn't make them real/authentic. Subsequently, once Red Tornado and Kathy get together, the show can then move onto more familial storylines such as their attempts to adopt an orphan and the hurdles Red Tornado has to go through due to his being classified as a machine (ergo, lacking any human rights).

Yeah. It's still a little rough and more mature (later on) than your average CW fare. But I dare you to tell me that this doesn't have huge potential.

 

[Daybreak_st]

I think Arrow works better than a show like Smallville is because he's a street level hero. The lack of movie caliber budget doesn't impact the quality of the show the way it did with something like Smallville. It's handled much the same way as any other action packed TV show with solid production values.

It's hard to do big budget superheroes on a small screen budget unless you're at ABC or one of the other larger networks. Even then you are expected to perform really really well or you will get canceled with a quickness. CW is that mid-level network, success on it is not the same as success on ABC or NBC. That gives shows more room to grow, mature and develop an audience.

All that said, Arrow works on that network where as it might not last as long on a larger network. But that also means smaller budget. If you want similar success on a network with limited budget I'd say again like Arrow go with more street level heroes. Not sure who specifically but it makes it more relatable. On a bigger network I think you could get away with more heavily super powered heroes but the scrutiny will also be higher. It's why Heroes only lasted a few seasons and was often lackluster with the fights.

 

[BlackMagicWolf]

Peasant: I like the originality of your choice, huge potential is a stretch. First of all Red Tornado as you said is a sentient android. How will his voice sound? Exactly, like a robot. Deadpan all episode long. Think of how a lot of people hated the deadpan narrations from Ollie and then have that going throughout the episode. Huge turn off.

The story could work, the memory loss is overdone but could be done right. Having the suits work for T.O. Morrow would be a good cap of season 1. Outside of that I'm not sure.

And we're ignoring the elephant in the room in that he is a robot! How will he look? You told me that doing Cyborg is tough because he's half-robot, but how easy would doing a full-one be? It can't look cheesy, and his powers are literally red-tornadoes so you have to do CGI for those and those can't look cheesy. And yes I know he disguises himself like a human but that brings back the deadpan voice.

Could it work? Maybe. I'd have to see what they do with Red Tornado himself.

Oh and as for your comment I still don't understand how you can't see adults watching a show about a superpowered, magical, teen (again my billy is 16-18) who fights against numerous bad guys. And to add depth is a show about struggling to find your way in a new family and a new life. Adults watch those shows all the time, it's called dramas and sitcoms.

Daybreak: I agree street level heroes are easier to do, that's why SHIELD might work because it's secret agents and not heroes. As for who might be next a lot of people want (outside the bat-family): The Question, I've heard Wildkat once (it can be a younger version), and there are others that have potential.

 

[Justin]

I think Shield will work but I think it's going to be more CSI, Xfiles with superpowers than like Arrow. And I think it would have been a hard sell without the avengers movie.

To be honest there are people here that hate the direction of Arrow because of all the romance and melodrama, but that is the trade off. A pure superhero show as it is appears in the comics isn't going to hit a mainstream audience.

A lot of the ideas floated in here people are very passionate about, but if they were made on TV they'd end up like The Cape, Weird Science or Billy and the book of evil (or whatever that show was). Late night cult tv shows. Even the old 60s batman was a cult hit rather than a mainstream one.

For a massive hit that isn't floated up by melodrama I think you need your Batmans or Spidermans or Iron Mans. Something that will get people watching on name alone.

 

[BlackMagicWolf]

I'm hopeful for SHIELD, I think it can work well with the formula it has. Definitely would not have happened without Avengers.

I too am of the crowd that really hates the cheap romance and some of the melodrama of Arrow and agree that it's a tradeoff. Frankly if it was just a show about fight and little story it would get old fast as you'd see all the moves the hero has pretty quickly.

In my SHAZAM! idea I take out the cheap romance and insert more of a family element. Billy's foster brothers and sisters would take on a much more integrated role in regards to both the story and the evolution of Billy. Much more than Thea or Moira have been. There would be love interests for Billy (Raven, Starfire, Jynx) but I let them evolve more naturally and become believable.

I keep hearing about The Cape, I didn't watch it but that was because I had other shows on. Look, Arrow and Smallville (and hopefully SHIELD) have shown that superhero shows can work with and without powers. DC has the writers to make some of these shows work and with the right ideas and people *points to self and blog* anyone of these shows could be a hit. Superman was a bankable name and it worked, Arrow isn't and it worked.

All DC (or Marvel) needs to do is take another risk.

 

[mr. peasant]

I think Shield will work but I think it's going to be more CSI, Xfiles with superpowers than like Arrow. And I think it would have been a hard sell without the avengers movie.

To be honest there are people here that hate the direction of Arrow because of all the romance and melodrama, but that is the trade off. A pure superhero show as it is appears in the comics isn't going to hit a mainstream audience.

A lot of the ideas floated in here people are very passionate about, but if they were made on TV they'd end up like The Cape, Weird Science or Billy and the book of evil (or whatever that show was). Late night cult tv shows. Even the old 60s batman was a cult hit rather than a mainstream one.

For a massive hit that isn't floated up by melodrama I think you need your Batmans or Spidermans or Iron Mans. Something that will get people watching on name alone.

In that case, the obvious solution would be to inject "melodrama" into a series. t:

But in all seriousness, upon reflection, virtually all successful niche genre (e.g. comic-based, paranormal, etc) shows in recent memory have added some sort of secondary element/gimmick to its premise to boost its appeal to viewers. With Smallville, it was teen drama. And if you go all the way back to Lois & Clark, it focused heavily on the romantic relationship of its two title characters (it's no mistake that the names "Lois" and "Clark" come before "Superman"; and that people remember that part of the title more than the "Superman" part). And of the three; Arrow is probably the biggest offender by its use of the "man on a mission"/"revenge"/"hit list" aspect. Indeed, its comic book mythos is little more than window dressing - change the character's name and methodology (i.e. lose the bow) and you could continue without losing much of the story and probably none of its appeal.

And if you extend your search to paranormal shows, you will see the same pattern continue. With Buffy, the show focused on teen drama and the trials and tribulations of growing up; which fans hold close to their hearts nearly as much as - if not more than - its supernatural aspects. Meanwhile, shows like X-Files, Supernatural, and The Vampire Diaries feature a "buddy cop"/"dynamic duo" type chemistry between its lead characters. Indeed, even considering its vamp romance genre, TVD would probably not have lasted as long or done as well as it has if not for the relationship and chemistry between the two vampire brothers. Meanwhile, True Blood features an allegory to race relations... and the porn. t:

Conclusion? Superhero (and other niche) shows need to "value add" their shows. It is best to include additional elements that are enough to carry the show even if you subtract the comic book mythos from the equation.

 

[mr. peasant]

Replying to this post separately to improve readability:

Peasant: I like the originality of your choice, huge potential is a stretch. First of all Red Tornado as you said is a sentient android. How will his voice sound? Exactly, like a robot. Deadpan all episode long. Think of how a lot of people hated the deadpan narrations from Ollie and then have that going throughout the episode. Huge turn off.

I dunno... the way I imagine it, the voice and personality need only be about as deadpan as Data or Spock. Or for a more recent example; Cameron from The Sarah Connor Chronicles. Incidentally, that's about as robotic as the voice need be as well.

Meanwhile, the narration - if any, to begin with - would more logically come from the lead human character in the show - Kathy Sutton; Red Tornado's main human contact and eventual love interest. Plus an every-girl. Which would work well for a CW-style show.

The story could work, the memory loss is overdone but could be done right. Having the suits work for T.O. Morrow would be a good cap of season 1. Outside of that I'm not sure.

I don't think having the suits work for T.O. Morrow would be the smartest way to evolve the plot. Keep them separate. The revelation of Morrow as Red Tornado's creator could instead evolve into a "screwed up family" +/- "Cain and Abel" type relationship with one or more of the other Reds.

And we're ignoring the elephant in the room in that he is a robot! How will he look? You told me that doing Cyborg is tough because he's half-robot, but how easy would doing a full-one be? It can't look cheesy, and his powers are literally red-tornadoes so you have to do CGI for those and those can't look cheesy. And yes I know he disguises himself like a human but that brings back the deadpan voice.

This is where I'm probably going to lose you and/or other comic book fans - Red Tornado should normally look completely human.

His classic red armour and yellow arrowhead would be his exoskeletal plating that is under an artificial skin and only revealed when heavily damaged a la the cyborgs in Terminator.

Incidentally, I'd like to revise my original concept so that Kathy isn't the one who activated him. Instead, he's already activated with no memory of how or why and trying to hide by pretending to be a human and minimising contact with others. And the cause of the fire could be Red Inferno trying to draw him out of hiding. Kathy discovers this when he saves her life from Red Inferno; causing the artificial skin covering his face to be burnt off.

 

[BlackMagicWolf]

After thinking about your idea more I can go back on my deadpan voice. I thought about Data and how his voice wasn't too annoying. However he had more personality than I think RT would. After all Data was a Star Fleet officer and thus has had plenty of interactions with humans.

I wasn't suggesting RT do narrations, I was just using Ollie's deadpan VO's as reference.

T.O Morrow we agree has to be in the show, how he's introduced is up to debate.

Ok if you want RT to look completely human unless damaged then why couldn't Cyborg work? It'd be the same principal with the exception that it'd only be certain body parts that are robotic.

The story can work either way I just have a hard time seeing RT as a main character. Data wasn't the main character in Star Trek, he was an awesome member of the crew. My question when coming into shows is "can I relate to the character?" and I know plenty of other people who think this way, especially when it comes to superhero shows. I know people who didn't watch Smallville and Arrow because they couldn't relate to Clark being an alien and Ollie being a rich-boy turned warrior. How are they supposed to relate to Red Tornado? A robot who for some reason is trying to hide and not have contact with humans?

 

[Paradox1]

After reading I like Mr. Peasant's Red Tornado his version is the most interesting one I've seen yet. As far as him being a robot he should be android like Data and include a little Pinnochio trying to become a real boy and I think you create a well rounded character.

On the Marvel side a character who I think would be great for a tv show is Dr. Strange. Here is my idea; Stephen Strange after a accident looses his ability to be a surgeon gets fired, goes dead broke looking for a cure and for the next couple years he disappears. He comes back to New York reemerging as an alternative medicine doctor which he practices out of the Sanctorum. A open minded cop starts to realize she is coming against some strange crimes that have no logical explanation and consults with the good doctor based on his iffy reputation. The two would form a loose partnership where she would bring the doctor in to consult on these strange cases.However it wouldn't be limited to a supernatural procedural because Strange wouldn't be sorcerer supreme yet. He's looking to become that before he can he needs to find these mystical objects such as talisman, herbs and etc in different times, galaxies and universes.

 

[BlackMagicWolf]

Paradox: Strange would be interesting, little iffy on some part of it but whatever.

I'm still not sold on Red Tornado. I'll admit I don't know everything about the character but things I do know is that he doesn't become human, that he doesn't want to become human he just wants to understand them. I recall a Batman: The Brave and the Bold episode where he tries to find out what Christmas is really all about. It could be interesting to see what he thinks about humanity but he shouldn't want to become one, that breaks character.

 

[Paradox1]

What about my idea of a Strange show is iffy to you?

 

[BlackMagicWolf]

Mainly how you described it. Allow me to explain. Doctor Strange is one of the characters in the Marvel Universe I know kind of well, I know he's the Sorcerer Supreme, was a surgeon who had an accident and then learned the mystic arts by the ancient one.

My problem with the overview of the show you gave was that it seemed more like a cop drama with the doctor as a sidekick instead of a show about him being Sorcerer Supreme, or frankly just a sorcerer, and defending the world against magical threats (boy this sounds familiar). Yes I know you said that he was searching for artifacts to become Sorcerer Supreme but last I remember you have to be chosen. That's how it happened in the comics.

Again not saying it couldn't work but the story worries me.

 

[Paradox1]

Maybe I'm not describing the cop portion of the show well but if you ever seen psych or Castle his role would be similar to that. Where he consults with the police but he wouldn't do that week after week. The cop portion is more about him reenterring the normal world and finding value in a normal life again. The doctor's main focus is still becoming Sorcerer Supreme because the other option is Baron Mordo finding the artifacts and being bestowed unlimitless power he could use for his evil purpose.

The title of sorcerer supreme was not given in the origins of the character it was something he earned. I get tired of the prisoner of fate storyline which is really popular in so many stories. I think him earning the title is something more people can relate to because what makes Strange so powerful is he has a talent and works hard to develop which is very Everyman.

 

[BlackMagicWolf]

Better. Good use of reference with Psych and Castle.

I'm fine with him earning the title of Sorcerer Supreme (which is what I mentioned earlier) and it works that he's trying to work his way back into the "real" world.

I doubt they'll do this because the rumor mill says that Strange is set for Phase 3 but who knows?

 

[Kar]

I've always had the idea of the Question teaming up with detective John Jones for an X-Files type show.

The Outsiders would be cool too. A Teen Titans series could work too, focusing on the teenagers trying to balance crime fighting with living a normal life (fits with CW's audience).

 

[Llama_Shepherd]

Teen Titans would be a great idea

 

[BlackMagicWolf]

Love the Teen Titans. If they stick to the "original" roster they probably couldn't do it because Robin is in it. In my SHAZAM! idea I got around that by making a "new" team.

Billy replaced Robin (after all he's the star of the show), Starfire and Raven stay on (they work with my magical/cosmic characters) then for fun I added Static Shock and Vibe (New 52 version).

Titans GO!

 

[S. Grundy]

I would love to see an adaptation of Hitman, but nothing like how Arrow was approached. I want it to fully embrace the DC Universe, superheroes and villains and BATOR! behind the bar.

But it would never in a million years happen.

 

[Ryder]

As I mentioned before Wolf; with Shazam, the main problem isn't the technical aspects of filming but the concept itself being a hard sell to a general adult audience. It's straight up classic kids TV fare.

.

Unfortunately I agree it wont be taken seriously and better suited to kids TV.

 

[Paradox1]

I still think Shazam could work in prime time if handled correctly. it is true that Shazam is more kid fare but he has awesome powers,timeless origin,and Billy Batson is the kind of kid you fall in love with. If they ever made Shazam I would like something based on this costume minus the hood.