BvS What Went Wrong w/ Batman V Superman: Dawn of Justice (SPOILERS) - Part 2

[FlawlessVictory]

Spending 18 months devising a way to kill someone who protected the entire planet and who regularly flies around the world saving people from natural disasters and burning buildings is stupidity, especially when you consider that the movie opens up on this conflict by showing Bruce in anguish over people in his office building dying as if Superman is to blame. He didn't have a conversation with the guy, he didn't do any research, he just decided that Superman must be stopped. Again, it isn't "cynicism". The way that the movie presented it is best described as "stupidity".

Yes, no research needed for him. Based on his experiences, with him seeing good people turn bad, he believed if Superman turned bad it would be catastrophic. He obviously acted wrongly in this.

On two separate occasions Superman flew from around the planet to save Lois, so I don't buy for a second that he is unable pinpoint where his mother was. Again, another contrivance.

Secondly, he put very little effort into actually talking to Batman. He has a total of one or two lines before he started hitting and threatening him, and again, none of those lines (as usual with this Superman) contained anything of value which would calm down Batman or make him come around to Superman's side.

In Africa and when Lex drops Lois? Superman knew Lois would be in Africa interviewing this warlord so he knew exactly where she would be. Other times he has rescued Lois, doesn't she usually scream? Martha never uttered a word.

 

[Nemeres]

At what point are people willing to call characters unintelligent, and the filmmaking flawed for making them so. Because there's literally nothing that fill-in-the-gaps rhetoric can't justify.

 

[Flint Marko]

Yes, no research needed for him. Based on his experiences, with him seeing good people turn bad, he believed if Superman turned bad it would be catastrophic. He obviously acted wrongly in this.

Then we should be able to agree that Batman was a moron.

In Africa and when Lex drops Lois? Superman knew Lois would be in Africa interviewing this warlord so he knew exactly where she would be. Other times he has rescued Lois, doesn't she usually scream? Martha never uttered a word.

If Superman knew she was in Africa, why did he wait until Jimmy Olsen got a bullet in the head to fly over and save her?
If he can hear a scream from halfway across the planet, why couldn't he hear a group of twenty dudes holding up a woman in a warehouse in the neighboring city? It's poor-storytelling. I understand that there's an element of difficulty when you are dealing with a character who can do almost anything, but they could do so much better than this.

At what point are people willing to call characters unintelligent, and the filmmaking flawed for making them so. Because there's literally nothing that fill-in-the-gaps rhetoric can't justify.

That's really the heart of my argument. I'm sure Snyder and co. would disagree that the characters were stupid, but it's their own incompetence as film makers whicih made them seem that way.

 

[TeeKay]

For Batman, it was a case of good men fall. He was jaded and cynical at this point. He had experienced good people turning bad. Difference here now though is that if Superman goes bad he can wipe out the entire planet. Not the same as Harvey Dent going bad. He can watch Superman doing heroic deeds all day, again, Dent was a good man who turned bad. In his mind, if that possibility was there with someone like Superman, he felt like he had to act on it.

Superman had no other options. His super hearing would not have picked up anything, her mouth was gagged at one point and at other times she never uttered a word. She was captive in an area where Batman was by far the best resource to use. He thought he could get through to him, first by talking, then by needing to subdue him but he was overtaken.

Yeah that's true considering Superman was able to hear Lois all the way in Africa, or when she was pushed off that building by Lex or when she was drowning admist his battle with Doomsday. That's called poor and contrived writing. The conflict was superficial at best because it couldn't have been avoided entirely from a writing point of view using the logic dictated in this film. So Superman can hear and save Lois three times but can't hear his own mother being kidnapped?

 

[obredaan]

Martha never uttered a word.

Which reminds me of that scene in MoS where Martha was telling young Clark to focus on her voice...I guess she conveniently forgot about that or it was conveniently written to have Martha forget her son has super hearing.

Either way it was a dumb idea to have the center piece of this film revolve around Lex kidnapping Martha. Especially if they never bother to think of these little details that are obvious to anyone watching.

 

[kguillou]

Even though I can understand the perspective that Lex kidnapping Martha was unnecessary, I'll make the argument that while Batman was fully ready to fight Superman, and Superman was no fan of Batman (especially after Clark investigates him in the UC) Superman still needed an extra push to confront him. And even then, Superman didn't want to fight but Batman had to pretty much coerce him into fighting back.

 

[obredaan]

Even though I can understand the perspective that Lex kidnapping Martha was unnecessary, I'll make the argument that while Batman was fully ready to fight Superman, and Superman was no fan of Batman (especially after Clark investigates him in the UC) Superman still needed an extra push to confront him. And even then, Superman didn't want to fight but Batman had to pretty much coerce him into fighting back.

But kidnapping Martha did not push Superman into fighting Batman either. It simply got him to confront Batman. From that point on, its all about Batman dictating the confrontation and egging on Superman. Kidnapping Martha was just the plot device to resolve the fight in a simple manner that doesn't challenge our characters. Superman already confronted Batman once so he already had his reasons for taking on Batman. They could've simply had another scene where Batman beats down a group a villains which leads to Superman interjecting himself realizing that Batman has crossed the line and needs to be stopped. I honestly would have preferred to see how Superman could've talked Batman out of his crazy mental state. This is what Superman is supposed to do after all which is inspire people to be better. Using the death card to play out this angle just isn't satisfying to me. I wanted Superman to be challenged and to question himself as to whether he should kill Batman or find that humanity in Batman to try and save him.

 

[Micromind]

If he can hear a scream from halfway across the planet.

That's an assumption that you are making. It's not shown in the movie that Superman is able to hear something halfway across the planet.

Him showing up in time at the Africa scene was a coincidence, not a good form of storytelling but it is what it is, I will leave it at that.

And, yes, Superman was not able to hear where they kept Ma Kent. As for how Superman is able to save Lois when Lex Pushes her, we don't know..

 

[ApophènX]

I thought Lex was also testing Superman's responding to Lois capture, so he knew his identity therefor. They work together so he should know she was there but i guess they didn't care for an answering and never do i, the guy can do almost anything you can always pick up on little details, it's plot convenient, not a big deal.

It's like when he see on the TV about the day of the dead in Juarez, why did he not hear it it's only in Mexico, he was busy following the cape crusader and drinking champaign, no big deal again, as the employe of Lex said "good luck for one is always his brother misfortune".

I don't consider those flaws, there is other information conveys in those moment like Lex talking about Martha burned like a witch or him putting Superman on his knees wich are great and more interesting for the movie coherence and message. I'm more concerned with some dialogues that felt less purposefull than before, less worked out, and the third act executions at some point, it could have been improved and perfected. It misses something to make it really great.

I thought Batman saving a "Martha" was nice because he could relived his trauma and get to save a mother figure, so he can move on from being on short relationship. The first shot of the movie where we are introduce to the dark knight is by woman wanting to be kept locked up, tells something for me, it's not Superman who have all his mother, girlfriend check right and okay. Batman seek advice from Alfred where Superman from woman more often, Bruce is in opposition with Wonder Woman where Clark is with Perry.

 

[Flint Marko]

That's an assumption that you are making. It's not shown in the movie that Superman is able to hear something halfway across the planet.

Him showing up in time at the Africa scene was a coincidence, not a good form of storytelling but it is what it is, I will leave it at that.

And, yes, Superman was not able to hear where they kept Ma Kent. As for how Superman is able to save Lois when Lex Pushes her, we don't know..

It's another case of bad storytelling. Superman's powers change depending on what the story needs him to do at that particular moment.

 

[ApophènX]

It's another case of bad storytelling. Superman's powers change depending on what the story needs him to do at that particular moment.

I really liked this moment, it's kind of dreamy and childish, the girk in distress will always be saved by the Superman, with gravity zero feeling. But that doesn't prevent him from making a mystake, sometimes in comic book two panels on different pages can happen at the same time, no need to be so rigid about it. Lex tricked him, Kal el was too confident, he make a mystake, he is learning, end of the story.

 

[Sleiek]

Power sets change in any story for many character depending on what the story demands.

If Flash wants, he could stop any calamity in less than 10 seconds. But they don't let him do that.

 

[TeeKay]

That still doesn't excuse the bad storytelling. The movie has to to stay in line with the rules and logic it has created for itself in this universe not deter from said rules and logic in the sake of creating conflict. It's superficial at best.

That's an assumption that you are making. It's not shown in the movie that Superman is able to hear something halfway across the planet.

Him showing up in time at the Africa scene was a coincidence, not a good form of storytelling but it is what it is, I will leave it at that.

And, yes, Superman was not able to hear where they kept Ma Kent. As for how Superman is able to save Lois when Lex Pushes her, we don't know..

Yes we do know. It's called contrived writing and bad story telling. He couldn't hear his mom but could hear Lois' heartbeat in the heat of battle with DD?

 

[obredaan]

Power sets change in any story for many character depending on what the story demands.

If Flash wants, he could stop any calamity in less than 10 seconds. But they don't let him do that.

Its still the writers job to try and establish certain rules or limits for the character. By showing Superman being able to save Lois no matter where she is, you've set the precedence and thus you get people noticing and asking why? Its only made worse considering that in MoS they showed Clark hearing Martha being attacked by Zod despite being miles away from her. Martha gives him a whole speech about focusing on her voice at the start of MoS but when she's abducted she never bothers to cry out for help?

 

[ApophènX]

Its still the writers job to try and establish certain rules or limits for the character. By showing Superman being able to save Lois no matter where she is, you've set the precedence and thus you get people noticing and asking why? Its only made worse considering that in MoS they showed Clark hearing Martha being attacked by Zod despite being miles away from her. Martha gives him a whole speech about focusing on her voice at the start of MoS but when she's abducted she never bothers to cry out for help?

In MoS Zod's people chock her, throw her away and shot the freaking car in the house, it's a hell lot of more noise than the tiny half muted scream she esquiss in BvS, rewatch the scenes it is nothing like it.

You are the only one trying to establish rules for the characters here, we could go on and on and find details or reason and this kind of thinking just kills it, the hero is acting on emotion in both case, wich is one of the main question in BvS as Batman is blinded by rage too, what is interesting is that, yes, Superman apparently put priority and he is still human and rescue the people he care about, but both were taken at the same time and as Lex said he didn't know were they took her. Lois is on the rooftop with Lex wich seems clearly more a priority for Superman to focus is attention on this area (Metropolis and Gotham being right next to each other). We could also argue that Superman as a lot more to focus on now that he tries to rescue the whole world and bla bla bla infinite bla bla bla

 

[nogster]

Why would Superman allow Batman go and save his Mother when.....
1. Only moments prior Batman was about to literally slay and kill him.
2. Superman would be far more effective and efficient at saving her.
3. It's his mother, in dire circumstances.


The only answer I can come up with is that the warehouse scene was storyboarded before the script.

 

[ApophènX]

On a psychological level it allows Bruce to save his mother, he just relived the all scenery in the scene of the killer when he was ready to finish Superman. It is also a mark of trust from Superman, whom also had to get to the Kryptonian ship full of lightning from his home world and where Lex is most likely to be, maybe Batman should have gone to the Kryptonian ship?

 

[Timebomb]

Why would Superman allow Batman go and save his Mother when.....
1. Only moments prior Batman was about to literally slay and kill him.
2. Superman would be far more effective and efficient at saving her.
3. It's his mother, in dire circumstances.


The only answer I can come up with is that the warehouse scene was storyboarded before the script.

All good points.

 

[The Shape]

He couldn't hear his mom but could hear Lois' heartbeat in the heat of battle with DD?

That was Lois banging on the concrete, not her heartbeat. She was also less than 100 yards away from Superman.

Wasn't Martha being kept somewhere in Gotham? Why is this a thing?

 

[Limonade]

That was Lois banging on the concrete, not her heartbeat. She was also less than 100 yards away from Superman.

Wasn't Martha being kept somewhere in Gotham? Why is this a thing?

Because FlawlessVictory couldn't get a flawless victory in the Superman super hearing debate.

 

[Jaxon]

Even though I can understand the perspective that Lex kidnapping Martha was unnecessary, I'll make the argument that while Batman was fully ready to fight Superman, and Superman was no fan of Batman (especially after Clark investigates him in the UC) Superman still needed an extra push to confront him. And even then, Superman didn't want to fight but Batman had to pretty much coerce him into fighting back.

Think of the alternative.

Superman fights Batman on his own free will. He gets hit with kryptonite. The obvious thing he does then is fly away once he regains that. But because he's on a timer from Lex he has to confront Batman on these terms.

Superman fighting Batman on his own free will doesn't fit the Clark persona that Jon Kent raised him with. Even when he threatened Batman he was very uncomfortable doing it because that's not who he is.

 

[Jaxon]

Why would Superman allow Batman go and save his Mother when.....
1. Only moments prior Batman was about to literally slay and kill him.
2. Superman would be far more effective and efficient at saving her.
3. It's his mother, in dire circumstances.


The only answer I can come up with is that the warehouse scene was storyboarded before the script.

Because it cements their relationship. There is no greater gift of trust that Superman bestows onto Batman than going and saving his mother. He makes the choice to go after the scout ship and entrust Batman with something so important to him. It establishes the bond between these 2 going forward and tells us that Superman first and foremost believes the good in people.

 

[jmc]

His mother was kidnapped and time wasn't on his side in order to save her, yet Superman fails to talk to Batman to explain the situation despite having ample opportunity. The reason they fight is because the title dictates they do, not because it's earned. No amount of additional footage is going to rectify that fundamental problem.

 

[sf2]

Because it cements their relationship. There is no greater gift of trust that Superman bestows onto Batman than going and saving his mother. He makes the choice to go after the scout ship and entrust Batman with something so important to him. It establishes the bond between these 2 going forward and tells us that Superman first and foremost believes the good in people.

it's funny. people complain he isn't hopeful. but when he does, they still complain...

 

[nogster]

Because it cements their relationship. There is no greater gift of trust that Superman bestows onto Batman than going and saving his mother. He makes the choice to go after the scout ship and entrust Batman with something so important to him. It establishes the bond between these 2 going forward and tells us that Superman first and foremost believes the good in people.

Lol. Oh please...
Man do you clutch at straws.

Thought experiment.

You are Superman in this exact moment.
Do you trust Batman to save your mother?
Or do you go and do it yourself. Because, She is you know. Your mother! and Batman is a violent vigilante who a was about to kill you.

That scene is beyond stupid in its logic.

But it had to happen like that to have the Batman warehouse scene right?

To me it is clearly a case of having the scene planned before the story was written. then trying to fit it into the movie some way.