The Last Jedi Why are some fans disappointed? - Part 1

[jmc]

That's the thing about Holdo I don't understand from defenders. She was putting people's lives on the line and expected Poe to just fall into place. That really is Empire like behaviour.

 

[TheVileOne]

The line from Leia about "protecting the light" instead of showing her as a hero didn't make much sense to me either. So she was acting shady because propping up Leia as a hero...is the wrong way to lead? I dunno. It was a very shaky throwaway explanation.

Why is telling Poe about the plan to hide in an old Rebel base such a closely guarded secret? It caused the death of almost the entire Resistance. It's hard to be proud of the heroes after they so willfully caused their own self-destruction in the final act.

 

[Detective Conan]

As for what we can all agree with Star Wars, it connected with people for different reasons. I will discuss in part why I love it so much, as I think Rian Johnson and myself agree. The OT resonates with me because it was about growing up and having the whole world in front of you. While it seemed scary and times got hard, there is the sense that if you work hard enough that you can overcome the odds and accomplish wonders. This connects with the younger man in me. But I have grown older and the world often seems harsher and scarier than it did through the eyes of a younger man. The world has challenged and nearly broken me. Happens to us all. Life is challenging. Life challenged Luke. He fell on hard times. The world broke him. But that same man that defeated the Empire is in there, he just needed to wake up. This resonates with me. When the world seems too daunting, I have to remind myself of what life was like when I was younger. Tap back into that same optimism and outlook. This is what I think Rian wanted to accomplish. We have all grown up. Life beats us up. But in the darkest times, we can rise like Luke. After all, we're all supposed to be Luke, right? Luke was always a mirror for youth and growing up, but an older Luke, that metaphor doesn't work. He can't be an everyman if he is a messiah like character. That's wish fulfillment. I cannot say what it is like to be a perfect, all powerful man because I am not one. I can admire someone who is perfect, but not connect with them. But I can absolutely connect with a man who felt the weight of the world on his shoulders, fell short of his expectations, but still found a way to move on and accomplish what he set out to do all along.

This post reminds me of the sagely advice of a certain legendary boxer.


[YT]5JAHAFvcr2o[/YT]


Luke Skywalker should've had Rocky Balboa come over there and talk some sense into him.

 

[Travesty]

So I gotta ask, and I hope some of you will be honest, but to all the people who defend this direction(Spider Fan and Batlobster especially): do you honestly think this was a good move for the franchise and the fans? And I’m asking you to take the subjective opinions you have for the movie apart, and looking at the current state of SW, and honestly say if Rian Johnson’s gamble was a greater good for the overall brand/product. That’s what I really want to know. I get you guys like the movie, and that’s perfectly fine, but is this an overall greater good for the franchise?

 

[Sorath]

The line from Leia about "protecting the light" instead of showing her as a hero didn't make much sense to me either. So she was acting shady because propping up Leia as a hero...is the wrong way to lead? I dunno. It was a very shaky throwaway explanation.

Why is telling Poe about the plan to hide in an old Rebel base such a closely guarded secret? It caused the death of almost the entire Resistance. It's hard to be proud of the heroes after they so willfully caused their own self-destruction in the final act.

This not complicated. Military leaders don't have to explain why they are doing something. If you are ordered to do something you're supposed to obey those orders. It's not you're place to question those orders. You have to trust that you're superiors know what they are doing. Their are times when those orders make no sense. However just cause they make no sense to you doesn't mean there is no reason for those orders. Yes, some times orders are wrong and have tragic consequence but that's the price you pay for being a soldier. A good soldier follows orders even when they disagree with them.

Let me pose a question for you to think about. He was given an order by Leia not to attack the Dreadnought but did so any way. He couldn't follow this simple order and not attack the dreadnought. He couldn't trust that Leia had a reason behind not wanting him to attack it. If she can't trust him to follow orders then why should she trust him with any tactical information. He need to learn that he has to follow orders and trust his superiors know what they are doing even if he disagree. That is why she didn't tell him.

 

[Detective Conan]

Film Critic Hulk: The Beautiful, Ugly, and Possessive Hearts of Star Wars

 

[TheVileOne]

This not complicated. Military leaders don't have to explain why they are doing something. If you are ordered to do something you're supposed to obey those orders. It's not you're place to question those orders. You have to trust that you're superiors know what they are doing. Their are times when those orders make no sense. However just cause they make no sense to you doesn't mean there is no reason for those orders. Yes, some times orders are wrong and have tragic consequence but that's the price you pay for being a soldier. A good soldier follows orders even when they disagree with them.

Once again blindly following orders that sound like suicide is what the Empire does. That's not good leadership.

Let me pose a question for you to think about. He was given an order by Leia not to attack the Dreadnought but did so any way. He couldn't follow this simple order and not attack the dreadnought. He couldn't trust that Leia had a reason behind not wanting him to attack it. If she can't trust him to follow orders then why should she trust him with any tactical information. He need to learn that he has to follow orders and trust his superiors know what they are doing even if he disagree. That is why she didn't tell him.

Because not telling him tactical information led to the whole Resistance getting wiped out. But I guess that's OK because now Poe has learned his lesson.

 

[Sorath]

Originally Posted by Spider-Fan View Post
As for what we can all agree with Star Wars, it connected with people for different reasons. I will discuss in part why I love it so much, as I think Rian Johnson and myself agree. The OT resonates with me because it was about growing up and having the whole world in front of you. While it seemed scary and times got hard, there is the sense that if you work hard enough that you can overcome the odds and accomplish wonders. This connects with the younger man in me. But I have grown older and the world often seems harsher and scarier than it did through the eyes of a younger man. The world has challenged and nearly broken me. Happens to us all. Life is challenging. Life challenged Luke. He fell on hard times. The world broke him. But that same man that defeated the Empire is in there, he just needed to wake up. This resonates with me. When the world seems too daunting, I have to remind myself of what life was like when I was younger. Tap back into that same optimism and outlook. This is what I think Rian wanted to accomplish. We have all grown up. Life beats us up. But in the darkest times, we can rise like Luke. After all, we're all supposed to be Luke, right? Luke was always a mirror for youth and growing up, but an older Luke, that metaphor doesn't work. He can't be an everyman if he is a messiah like character. That's wish fulfillment. I cannot say what it is like to be a perfect, all powerful man because I am not one. I can admire someone who is perfect, but not connect with them. But I can absolutely connect with a man who felt the weight of the world on his shoulders, fell short of his expectations, but still found a way to move on and accomplish what he set out to do all along.

I want to add to this and it kind address the heart of and soul of the prequels really. That is that we should never stand still. We should always be trying to evolve and grown and not get stuck in one place.

Luke tells Rey that Jedi at height of their power allowed Darth Sidious to rise to power. The major reason why is because they refused to evolve. They got locked in to following the code that they trust it more then they trusted the will of the force. Its because it worked so well and galaxy had known peace for a thousand years.

Luke was about to make the same mistake in Last Jedi. He was going to destroy the Jedi text but then couldn't bring himself to do it. Yoda finally stepped in and did it for him. The reason why is because change is some times good. It can be painful and hard but it can lead to bigger and better things. Yet Yoda tells him the text are gone doesn't mean the Jedi will cease to exist. It just means the Jedi now have a fresh new start.

I think all together the message the Last Jedi is saying is change is painful and hard but it can be good. It was also telling us we need to be careful of our motives and why we do the things we do. The Last Jedi was great movie. It brought back a lot of the depth that I saw in the original film as well as the prequels. That depth was completely missing in Force Awakens. Don't get me wrong Force Awakens was a good film it just didn't have any real depth. It was to busy trying to reduplicated Episode 4.

At the end of the day every one going to have a different take and opinion on Star Wars. That will always be the case as long as they keep making films.

 

[TheVileOne]

Film Critic Hulk: The Beautiful, Ugly, and Possessive Hearts of Star Wars

Could've done without the sanctimonious first few paragraphs of virtue signaling.

 

[jmc]

This not complicated. Military leaders don't have to explain why they are doing something. If you are ordered to do something you're supposed to obey those orders. It's not you're place to question those orders. You have to trust that you're superiors know what they are doing. Their are times when those orders make no sense. However just cause they make no sense to you doesn't mean there is no reason for those orders. Yes, some times orders are wrong and have tragic consequence but that's the price you pay for being a soldier. A good soldier follows orders even when they disagree with them.

Let me pose a question for you to think about. He was given an order by Leia not to attack the Dreadnought but did so any way. He couldn't follow this simple order and not attack the dreadnought. He couldn't trust that Leia had a reason behind not wanting him to attack it. If she can't trust him to follow orders then why should she trust him with any tactical information. He need to learn that he has to follow orders and trust his superiors know what they are doing even if he disagree. That is why she didn't tell him.

There's a difference between disagreeing with a commanding officer and following and an order that is putting lives unnecessarily at risk. A good soldier has a duty to disobey a commanding officer if he/she is being asked to do something that is morally questionable. 'I was just following orders' is not an excuse.

 

[dhandler01]

I actually thought that trick of him not really being there was great... until he died a second later making it completely meaningless to me. Doesn't matter that he tricked them since he just died anyway. Might as well have been blown away for all I care. Might as well have just been a hologram.

Agreed. IF he lives past that to continue the fight then the moment is pretty awesome and shows he is back and ready for a showdown. Instead he just fades away...

 

[Murdock103]

I haven’t followed this films production or behind the scenes so forgive me if what I’m about to say has already been confirmed, but I wonder if, in an earlier version of the script, the whole tracking hyper space thread wasn’t there. I wonder if the actual plot was that there was a spy on board the resistance’s ship.
It just seems to clear up all the muddy character stuff for me.

It doesn’t introduce a new technology that film makers may have to ignore in future films.
It explains why Rose was zapping people trying to escape the ship (they could be they spy)
It explains why Poe is distrustful of Holdo - this admiral just happens to not be on the deck when it gets blown up, and is now in charge, and is acting all shady.
It explains why Holdo wouldn’t pass on her plan to many people, even if she didn’t think Poe was the spy, she probably wouldn’t trust that he could keep his mouth shut.

All of the above just seems so seems to fit far better with the idea of a spy giving away their coordinates whenever they use hyperspace that I wonder if this was dropped for some reason.

Also - I understand the argument people are making for Poe’s character arc but I think it comes down to execution.

I think the film is trying to make Holdo seem unlikeable and untrustworthy. Obviously this pay off is so when Poe realised that she actually has a decent plan in place, we question, along with Poe, ‘oh right, we were foolish and so was Poe not to trust her’.
The problem is, by that point, we already dislike her. And the reveal isn’t that, she had a great plan and COULDN’T tell anyone, so actually she was carrying this heavy burden, which is quite admirable.
No, she could have passed on the plan.....but didn’t.....and we were already leaning to disliking the character....so at that point, I think the audience is far quicker to jump to the opinion of ‘she could have dealt with this whole thing far better’ and not ‘ah, we should and just shut up and accepted that this character knew best’.

And finally....since when is the lesson ‘if you’re in the military, you should blindly follow the orders of superiors’ such a great lesson? I think if a film set in WW2 or Vietnam tried to sell this message, they’d be criticised. And yet, in a space adventure movie, set in a universe where literally 30 years ago, there was a galactic nazi-esque empire that just wanted people to do as they were told, that lesson makes sense?
(I appreciate that he whole thing about following orders can change dramatically with characterisation/orders given etc).

 

[Aximili86]

Gold. Just ****in' gold.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

I don't mind that Luke left the island either. It's like the ultimate trick against Kylo Ren. That was more humiliating for Kylo Ren than being beaten in physical combat.

However, the uncertainty when you see Luke disappear and die. It's just too much. Because at first you don't understand what's going on.

When I saw the film early at Disney, the audience was eating it up when Luke tricked Kylo Ren. I think the point of losing the audience is when he disappears.

I respect Rian Johnson for doing what he felt the story needed, but I think he also needed someone to be honest with him and tell him no and make him understand that you don't want to kill off Luke yet.

Because IMHO the movie is about the restoration of Luke's hope. It's about restoring his faith in the Force and the Jedi. I think that's powerful. But I think having Luke die leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

Not to mention, I mean, all things considered it's a bleak ending. You don't leave very confident about their Resistance. Their own idiocy basically destroyed the entire Resistance. Especially Holdo, Poe Dameron, and Rose.

Why should Poe Dameron listen to Holdo and blindly follow her when she makes it look like she's going to get them all killed? Blindly following orders like that is what the Empire and First Order do.

This, if Luke survives TLJ I think people would be a lot more forgiving towards the movie and what it was trying to say. After all of the build up, Luke finally gets back into the fight, and then dies, despite the fact it's revealed that he was in total safety the whole time, it just feels like a kick in the teeth. Especially when Rey now has no one to properly train her.

And Holdo, jeez the writing was so poor. She says she has known people like Poe Dameron before and then tells him to shut up and follow her orders without question. But if she knew what the type of person Poe was, as she says herself, she should have known this wouldn't happen.

 

[BatLobster]

So I gotta ask, and I hope some of you will be honest, but to all the people who defend this direction(Spider Fan and Batlobster especially): do you honestly think this was a good move for the franchise and the fans? And I’m asking you to take the subjective opinions you have for the movie apart, and looking at the current state of SW, and honestly say if Rian Johnson’s gamble was a greater good for the overall brand/product. That’s what I really want to know. I get you guys like the movie, and that’s perfectly fine, but is this an overall greater good for the franchise?

Honestly I think it's too soon to know the definitive answer for that. I really need to see how Episode IX plays out, both creatively and at the box office.

I also personally feel that even though it's two directors, you can't really look at TFA and TLJ in isolation. TFA set up a lot of the divisive elements- Han and Leia are a failed marriage, Han is a failed father who gets killed by his son, Luke blames himself for Kylo's fall and exiles himself, the victory at the battle of Endor did not bring lasting piece or the return of the Jedi Order. In other words, the "happily ever after" of the original trilogy is undone and the heroes of it are revealed as flawed. In my honest opinion, while Johnson obviously went further with that with Luke, that was the overall precedent that was set for this trilogy. TFA just was such a breezy, fun film that I think people were able to overlook it.

So I think it is absolutely fair to question whether that was the best decision from a business standpoint. In my mind it's all tied in with the conundrum of continuing this saga after Episode VI in the first place. The story had a satisfying conclusion. Like Orson Welles said, "If you want a happy ending, that depends of course, on where you stop your story".

I think they were basically faced with prequels 2.0 or originals 2.0 in contuining the story. Prequels 2.0 would be the new Republic is flourishing, Luke has a successful Jedi Academy, and then some new evil rises up to undo it all. Of course, they opted for originals 2.0 where we enter the conflict in media res, which means the old guard have already dropped the ball off screen. Personally, I think they were a little TOO timid to remind anyone of the prequels when they made TFA. It would've really helped give that film and this trilogy a bit more context if we had a chance to see the new Republic a bit more than we did.

I'm getting off track though. To get back to your original question, is this a greater good for the franchise? I don't really claim to know. I can see a world in which it's a greater good, where the saga is able to grow beyond the OT cast and the whole thing becomes more geared towards the next generation. But, as some have pointed out- there's a lot competing for kids' attention these days, and Star Wars may not be the "it" thing it used to be for kids. This definitely means that upsetting a sizeable chunk of your core fanbase can backfire. No way around that. There's a lot of anger out there. Time will tell how much that subsides, how many fans are going to be angry for life (*cough* not healthy), exactly what percentage of fans would actually boycott for life, and how many new fans are able to step in and help carry the torch.

I also think the definition of "greater good" is something to think about too. For example, all this talk about Disney slowing down production of the spin off films...for me that IS in the interest of the greater good, because I have been concerned about the oversaturation and milking of this franchise from the moment Disney purchased it. I think Star Wars is better off being divisive (it's been there multiple times before) than it is with everyone just jaded and bored of it. For better or worse, the intensity of the TLJ debate has brought into focus just how deeply a lot of people do care about the franchise. So if something makes them slow down and actually think about what type of SW films they even should be making, that's a positive to me.

 

[Elayis]

I think a majority of the issues that people have with Luke's characterization in the film stem from how Abrams set him up in TFA. An embittered, hermit Luke who abandoned his friends was his idea. All Johnson did was take what he was given and take the story the only logical way it could play out and not feel cheap and unearned.

There had to be a reason why Luke had secluded himself, and it couldn't be something that a quick pep talk from a stranger could resolve. There had to be a reason why Snoke and Kylo couldn't find him, so having him intentionally cut himself off from the Force was a reasonable justification. And having Luke swoop in and save the day with an epic display of Force powers would've been obvious and a little childish, let alone undermine the real leads of this trilogy.

This is not Luke's story anymore. It's unfortunate that we never got to see Luke Skywalker, Jedi Master in his prime, but we were never going to get that with Mark Hamill in his sixties.
And I can understand people wishing Luke was still alive for IX, especially now that Carrie Fisher is no longer with us, but his death worked for me.

So again, if you don't like hermit Luke, blame Abrams. If you don't like that Luke, Han and Leia weren't reunited, blame Abrams. Johnson could only use the cards he was dealt.

 

[Aximili86]

An embittered, hermit Luke who abandoned his friends was his idea.

Not true. George proposed that before Abrams ever came aboard. Pretty sure before Kasdan even came aboard, when Lucas was talking things over with Arndt for that initial draft.

Hermit Luke is straight from the big man, along with TFA having a female lead around Luke's age in ANH living as a scavenger.

 

[Elayis]

What I meant is that it was Abrams' idea to ultimately use it in the film.

 

[moviedoors]

So I gotta ask, and I hope some of you will be honest, but to all the people who defend this direction(Spider Fan and Batlobster especially): do you honestly think this was a good move for the franchise and the fans? And I’m asking you to take the subjective opinions you have for the movie apart, and looking at the current state of SW, and honestly say if Rian Johnson’s gamble was a greater good for the overall brand/product. That’s what I really want to know. I get you guys like the movie, and that’s perfectly fine, but is this an overall greater good for the franchise?

Personally, I don't care about the "greater good". I want the best possible stand alone movie, franchise be damned. I think it's kind of gross to worry about it as a "brand/product." I wouldn't trade The Last Jedi, exactly as it is, for franchise stability.

But, I'm glad this movie threw everything it had on the table. It didn't save anything for the sake of a movie that hasn't even been made yet. I like that JJ Abrams is going to have to dig deep if he wants to knock IX out of the park.

 

[BatLobster]

I don't mind that Luke left the island either. It's like the ultimate trick against Kylo Ren. That was more humiliating for Kylo Ren than being beaten in physical combat.

However, the uncertainty when you see Luke disappear and die. It's just too much. Because at first you don't understand what's going on.

When I saw the film early at Disney, the audience was eating it up when Luke tricked Kylo Ren. I think the point of losing the audience is when he disappears.

I can understand and sympathize that it caused some emotional whiplash for parts of the audience, but personally, I didn't find his death all that surprising. Once they showed how much Luke was exerting himself to create that Force projection, I took that as a signal that he was probably going to die from the effort. And I realized I was also okay with this, because they were never going to give him a higher high to go out on than that. It was a note of pure triumph, and the most Jedi-like thing we'd ever see Luke do on screen. However, even if it was too much for some fans to process on the first viewing...I still think at some point, acceptance should set in. It can only be jarring once. Not to mention, if they kept him alive- what exactly is that setting up? Luke being a fully committed Resistance guy in the last film? How does he eventually meet his fate, in battle with Kylo? Or just passes of old age? I don't know...when I consider the options they'd be left with, I just end up feeling better that we got his whole journey wrapped up in one film. I am perfectly OK with Luke being a ghost in the final film- heck, that can lead some potentially interesting places with Kylo.

I respect Rian Johnson for doing what he felt the story needed, but I think he also needed someone to be honest with him and tell him no and make him understand that you don't want to kill off Luke yet.

Because IMHO the movie is about the restoration of Luke's hope. It's about restoring his faith in the Force and the Jedi. I think that's powerful. But I think having Luke die leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

"Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter." For me, the movie is about those things, but none of that really is made any better by Luke's survival. This is a universe where enlightened Jedi become one with the Force, and continue to influence the destinies of the heroes that are still living. It just makes sense and is inevitable as that big "next step" for Luke.

Not to mention, I mean, all things considered it's a bleak ending. You don't leave very confident about their Resistance. Their own idiocy basically destroyed the entire Resistance. Especially Holdo, Poe Dameron, and Rose.

Why should Poe Dameron listen to Holdo and blindly follow her when she makes it look like she's going to get them all killed? Blindly following orders like that is what the Empire and First Order do.

I mean, that only really holds if you want to call characters making mistakes that they have to learn and grow from "idiocy". Film Critic Hulk's breakdown of how we tend to impose our own real world logic to story and approach things from a "that's not what I would've done in that situation!" perspective, highlights exactly what I'm talking about here. It's an interesting one, because for a while I've felt that this type of thinking leads to dead ends that miss the point when really trying to have an in-depth discussion about any type of narrative content.

But in any event, I don't see a problem with the Resistance being vastly outnumbered at the end of the film. First of all, this is meant to be the darker middle chapter, right? The odds should be stacked against them going into the third film. Second, the Resistance (and the Republic) were already in a bad position after the Starkiller attack in TFA. Things got more desperate as a result of the failures of Poe/Finn/Rose, but I think you have to also account for the whole idea that Luke's final act is meant to inspire the galaxy and bring hope back to the cause in a broader sense. And I'm sorry, if that notion is too corny for some people to accept, then I think they may want to reconsider their love of Star Wars. Cause Star Wars has always been super freakin' cornball at heart. There are darker and lighter sides of it to be sure, but when you get down to it...optimism and faith in good in the face of seemingly insurmountable odds is very much the core of that "Star Wars feeling", IMO.

 

[wampa1]

"The greater good"

 

[wampa1]

I mean, that only really holds if you want to call characters making mistakes that they have to learn and grow from "idiocy". Film Critic Hulk's breakdown of how we tend to impose our own real world logic to story and approach things from a "that's not what I would've done in that situation!" perspective, highlights exactly what I'm talking about here. It's an interesting one, because for a while I've felt that this type of thinking leads to dead ends that miss the point when really trying to have an in-depth discussion about any type of narrative content..

Yep. One thing Hulk didn't touch on which I thought they might is that Poe is only a main character to those watching the film. In the film itself after he got demoted he's no more entitled to insider info than Darren the toilet repair man.

I found it quite refreshing that characters were acting realistically towards each other and not as though they know whose face is on the poster or whose name comes first in the credits.

 

[dhandler01]

Not true. George proposed that before Abrams ever came aboard. Pretty sure before Kasdan even came aboard, when Lucas was talking things over with Arndt for that initial draft.

Hermit Luke is straight from the big man, along with TFA having a female lead around Luke's age in ANH living as a scavenger.

None of that makes it a good idea...

And there are plenty of ways to do Hermit Luke that would work better than what we got. And of course a better explanation of what lead him this way would as well.

It isnt about who is behind the idea, it is the fact we dont like the execution.

 

[wampa1]

And there are plenty of ways to do Hermit Luke that would work better than what we got. And of course a better explanation of what lead him this way would as well.

I disagree. There are a lots of alternatives but very few are better (I've yet to hear one).

 

[Aximili86]

None of that makes it a good idea...

And there are plenty of ways to do Hermit Luke that would work better than what we got. And of course a better explanation of what lead him this way would as well.

It isnt about who is behind the idea, it is the fact we dont like the execution.

Great. Plenty of people do, though, and "good idea" is enormously subjective.

There's plenty of "explanation" though, that's one thing that's not subjective. Nobody can make an argument they didn't present logical reasoning behind it.