The Last Jedi Why are some fans disappointed? - Part 1

[Ozbridge]

I posted this in another thread, but I read an older interview with Rian Johnson where he says he hates writing, it's terrible, no fun at all. Which just explains a lot to me.

Up until a few years ago I wrote as a hobby (not for publishing) and I can confirm. Writing is a frustrating process, you have writer block, hate what you have written, tempted to start over again, wonder whether you have any talent at all, etc. I loved and hated writing at the same time.

 

[BatLobster]

Yeah, not only is that a super common thing many filmmakers have said- I'd actually be way more suspicious of a writer who that said writing was a breeze. It is insanely hard. It's a hellish, solitary mountain to climb.

As for Rey, I'm still kind of baffled at the logic here- if ALL of her appeal was around the mystery of who her parents are, wouldn't that have made her kind of a failed character? The whole point of that reveal is that she is forced to not rely on anyone else to define her. That lays the track for her to be a more interesting, stronger character going forward.

And again, that's not even to say her lineage may not be brought up again in IX. But I think the arc the films are constructing for her is one where she has to fully come into her own and define herself without being handed the easy answers that she wants. That's not to say there isn't still room for some type of "certain point of view" revelation though. This is a trilogy closer, and it's Star Wars after all. I think it's worth keeping that in perspective.

I think how TLJ will be remembered or what the consensus will be on it really depends on alot of things actually.

If Episode 9 is embraced by fans, critics, and the GA alike in a big way, I actually think TLJ will take a beating and the spin will be "JJ saved SW twice".

If that actually happens, you're probably right about what the spin will be and that would amuse me to no end. Cause I'd just laugh at all the people who said TLJ had definitively and permanently ruined Star Wars/the trilogy, without taking a moment to consider that....it's the middle chapter, it's supposed to shake up the box and subvert expectations a bit, and I'd also throw in the argument that TLJ left IX with GOOD creative challenges to solve that led to a better story being told than what we may have otherwise have gotten.

Bottom line, I just hope Episode IX is great and wraps up the trilogy in a satisfying way. If that happens, to me that will just mean that JJ and Rian ran a successful creative relay race. People can spin it however they please but that's a win/win scenario for everyone. I do agree with your overall assessment though, I'm sure TLJ will remain divisive for years to come, at least in the foreseeable future. But there's also the possibility that Star Wars will outlive us all, so we have no idea what the cultural assessment will be 40-50 years into the future, if people still care about Star Wars.

 

[dhandler01]

The idea that Star Wars needs saving because of TLJ is a joke. Thats far from the truth. TLJ is loved by critics and was a box office smash. Its in the billion club too.
Its just a loud minority on the internet that make stupid articles for clickbait sites and bloggers that attack the filmmakers directly because they didn't do the Luke that they dreamed of in their own head.

Thats where the real hate comes from. Luke and how he was handled. If Luke was handled as a cut and paste EU Jedi Messiah then some loud vocal fans wouldn't feel like Rian Johnson personally attacked them and their childhood hero.
But he didn't. Not at all. He loves Luke. Its not about were Luke started in this film. Its where he ended up. A hero again. A Legendary Jedi master that saved his friends and inspired hope even bigger then before. To think that evil wouldn't rise again is silly. This doesn't undo ROTJ's ending. It will always be a victory. Luke saved his Father and the Emperor was defeated and killed. There was always fractions of the Empire running around in the galaxy after the victory. We don't really know how much peace time there was and when Luke trained Kylo and he turned. It could of happened 5/10 years before TFA when Luke had his confrontation with Kylo and the Jedi temple was destroyed.
Thats also still 20-25 years of peace before the First Order really took over the galaxy from the ROTJ's ending.
We don't know the full details about that and please correct me if I'm wrong about that information.
Luke is in exile because of Kylo. Not because of the rise of The First Order. The First Order might of rised when he was in exile. Please again correct me if I'm wrong.

So you didnt read what any of us posted...cool.

 

[wampa1]

There being conflict doesn't bother me. The OT hero's facing challenges doesn't bother me, as you say it's necessary for conflict. What DOES bother me, is destroying EVERYTHING that they built up, having them make the same freaking mistakes as their predecessors did (which misses the entire point of the OT), making them all depressed miserable failures, and then they die with their live's work in ruins.

And all of this, so they can essentially rewind the clock and gives us a less interesting well-established version of the same conflict that we've already seen. You know I never thought I'd say this, but the PT did better because at least it TRIED to do something different and come up with a different kind of conflict.

Presumably you're levelling this criticism at The Force Awakens and JJ Abrams?

 

[Detective Conan]

Pretty sure it was more Stevens' divorce that shaped the nasty-spirited feel of Temple, but the rest of that post feels spot-on. We don't know the circumstances of Luke going all loner-hobo in George's version, but we do know that it was a part of it.

Lucas in the behind-the-scenes doc for 'Temple Of Doom' says that the dark tone of 'Temple Of Doom' was partially inspired by his divorce.

We do know that in Lucas's original out-lines that the circumstances for him going into exile was because of a betrayal of one his students according to the author of 'Art Of The Last Jedi' book.

 

[Detective Conan]

Here's a good summation of what Lucas possibly had in mind for the sequel trilogy.

 

[wampa1]

Here's a good summation of what Lucas possibly had in mind for the sequel trilogy.

So, the late-2012 idea of a Luke Skywalker haunted by the betrayal of one of his students, in self-imposed exile & spiritually in “a dark place”, not only precedes Rian Johnson’s involvement in Star Wars but J.J. Abrams’, as well.

 

[Frodo]

The idea that Star Wars needs saving because of TLJ is a joke. Thats far from the truth. TLJ is loved by critics and was a box office smash. Its in the billion club too.

Totally. But what I'm talking about in terms of "saving star wars" is spin and rhetoric, not truth and fact. Right now, there's a narrative from half of the fanbase that argues post Solo and TLJ the brand needs to be "saved". I don't buy into it , but ,whether you like it or not, that narrative is out there.

Whether we want to quantify how many there are or not, it they are out there and its clearly loud enough that fanboys , geek pundits, and journalists, and employees of Lucasfilm keep responding to them.

If Episode 9 does very well with fans, critics, and audiences, you can be damn sure that fans who hated TLJ and Solo will claim," Abrams saved Star Wars!".

It'll be spin of course, but that's exactly what the spin will be from those who've bashed the last two films. You're already hearing it now with alot fans saying its JJ job to "save Star Wars".

They're already setting up expectations for the next film to be superior to TLJ. Whether that's good or not is a different question, but its already happening and they'll have a year to do it.

 

[Warlock]

Bingo. And on that note--

http://http://observer.com/2018/07/film-crit-hulk-the-beautiful-ugly-and-possessive-hearts-of-star-wars/amp/

Film Critic Hulk may have to change his name to Film Critic Yoda if he keeps dropping this much wisdom.

"Toxic fandom...conspiracy theories...racism...sexism...hateful rhetoric...troglodytes...subconscious racism...stealth sexism....vestigial tail of white male fragility..."

I can see he has a well balanced and open minded view of the vocally critical star wars fan demographics. Would you like an extra serve of self-righteous, virtue signalling liberalism to go with that holier than thou, moral preaching and high horse perhaps?

He also waxes lyrical on The Force Awakens, which although a decent movie, was not the tour de force of cinematic genius he espouses.

Frankly he has missed the point on a number of issues.

But whatever makes you feel good bro.

 

[MaceB]

He has a point on a number of issues as well. There are many reasons to dislike TLJ, but the fan treatment of Kelly Marie Tran demonstrates a lot of what the author is talking about.

Then, all the talk of Rey and Holdo... and you got what looks like a lot of angry middle aged white dudes, getting themselves in a tizzy over the fact that their favorite story doesn't look and sound like them anymore.

Is that faire? I don't know... maybe not. But there are certainly examples that can support that hypothesis.

 

[BatLobster]

"Toxic fandom...conspiracy theories...racism...sexism...hateful rhetoric...troglodytes...subconscious racism...stealth sexism....vestigial tail of white male fragility..."

I can see he has a well balanced and open minded view of the vocally critical star wars fan demographics. Would you like an extra serve of self-righteous, virtue signalling liberalism to go with that holier than thou, moral preaching and high horse perhaps?

He also waxes lyrical on The Force Awakens, which although a decent movie, was not the tour de force of cinematic genius he espouses.

Frankly he has missed the point on a number of issues.

But whatever makes you feel good bro.

Hey man, it's become the elephant at the room in this point. Any honest discussion around the state of Star Wars has to address it to some degree. I respect that he tackled it head-on upfront. And I think he made plenty of substantive arguments beyond that.

What I do very much give a sh** about, however, is the larger conversation where there are people who, you know, just didn’t like some of the recent Star Wars movies. And that’s totally cool. All I really want to do in this essay is get at the heart of why. This would normally be less of a problem, but since we all find ourselves having to engage with the aforementioned toxic bunch, it becomes really hard to navigate discussion with each other, probably because it feels like so much is at stake (this is precisely why larger conversations need to be moderated; the troglodytes suck up the space for rationality and common ground).

No one is ever happy about getting lumped in with troglodytes, so I understand why people get defensive. But when people reply to criticism with a kind of “not all Star Wars fans!” mantra, they often miss the point of the criticism being made.

Make no mistake, a bunch of these 'characters' in question HAVE tainted the whole conversation. That's what makes it such a minefield.

But I'd absolutely be open to hearing the counterargument to Film Crit Hulk if it were done as eloquently. All I've really wanted are better, more mature discussions around this film. It's hard to cut through all the nastiness and I appreciate his attempt. I didn't even necessarily agree 100% on everything he said either, but he's still a very good film writer and I found it worth the read and a valiant effort to assess where we're at with Star Wars...truthfully, anything beyond than "Star Wars is ruined forevah, fire Kathleen Kennedy!" is a breath a fresh air at this point.

And sure, he is a pretty open bleeding heart lib and he injects that into his writing. But the dude knows movies and is good at articulating stuff hard-to-articulate stuff about them. Sorry, I value his opinion on it much more than Ben Shapiro's.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Loki's post sums up my feelings as well.

Also, when Episode 8 ended, I didnt have that feeling of "wow I cant wait to see what happens in the next one!" Which is disappointing.

I posted this in another thread, but I read an older interview with Rian Johnson where he says he hates writing, it's terrible, no fun at all. Which just explains a lot to me.

I have written screenplays and I write shorts on occassion as well. It's an awful process and I don't like writing either. Writers often hate writing, so Rian saying that means nothing. I hate 95% of what I write and second guess myself constantly. Even if my writing is good or if I get positive feedback about my writing. It's the nature of the beast.

 

[dhandler01]

You really arent reading what others are saying are you? This was all covered pages ago including that George Lucas came up with the idea. Lucas doing it doesnt make it any better...

 

[wampa1]

You really arent reading what others are saying are you? This was all covered pages ago including that George Lucas came up with the idea. Lucas doing it doesnt make it any better...

 

[dhandler01]

He has a point on a number of issues as well. There are many reasons to dislike TLJ, but the fan treatment of Kelly Marie Tran demonstrates a lot of what the author is talking about.

Then, all the talk of Rey and Holdo... and you got what looks like a lot of angry middle aged white dudes, getting themselves in a tizzy over the fact that their favorite story doesn't look and sound like them anymore.

Is that faire? I don't know... maybe not. But there are certainly examples that can support that hypothesis.

I am a 38 year old white man...my dislike of the film has nothing do with race. This need for the defenders to label those of us that dont like the film as racists or sexists (when the film came out they basically implied we were all Trump voters) is ridiculous. Are some that awful...sure but it is the minority.

Kelly Marie Tran's storyline sucked. Not cause she is Asian but because it sucked. If they had [insert White Man Here] playing the part the storyline still sucked. Poe's storyline sucked too am I racist for believing that? Kylo Ren's character is lame as heck am I racist over that too? This reminds me of a certain poster on the Wonder Woman boards who implies I am anti gay because I said other people (not me) would get triggered over Diana being Bi.

I am a liberal White Male who lives in one of the most liberal cities, in one of the most liberal states in the US. I take umberage to anyone who even implies that my dislike over something other than the content of the film itself is due to racism or sexism or any other ism.

 

[dhandler01]

Oh you are trolling...whatever floats your boat sweetie.

 

[Travesty]

I am a 38 year old white man...my dislike of the film has nothing do with race. This need for the defenders to label those of us that dont like the film as racists or sexists (when the film came out they basically implied we were all Trump voters) is ridiculous. Are some that awful...sure but it is the minority.

Kelly Marie Tran's storyline sucked. Not cause she is Asian but because it sucked. If they had [insert White Man Here] playing the part the storyline still sucked. Poe's storyline sucked too am I racist for believing that? Kylo Ren's character is lame as heck am I racist over that too? This reminds me of a certain poster on the Wonder Woman boards who implies I am anti gay because I said other people (not me) would get triggered over Diana being Bi.

I am a liberal White Male who lives in one of the most liberal cities, in one of the most liberal states in the US. I take umberage to anyone who even implies that my dislike over something other than the content of the film itself is due to racism or sexism or any other ism.

It's almost like there's two obvious toxic sides to the SW fandom, but it seems one side gets a pass for their toxicity.

 

[wampa1]

Not really. If you're not racist or sexist then they're not talking about you. It's dead simple.

 

[poryon1289s]

Simple for me, it renders the OT pointless in favor of just rehashing the same conflict all over again, only less interestingly this time. And it doesn't do justice to either the old hero's or the new ones either.

The Old Republic stood for a thousand years and it took a decades-long plan by a master schemer taking advantage of inherent systematic weakness while also orchestrating various crises in a slow but unstoppable rise to power.

Then 20 years of Imperial rule, 4-5 years of conflict in the OT ending with the toppling of the Empire.

Then there's a mere 30 years of peace (none of which we actually got to SEE BTW), during which we're told that the NR was corrupt ineffectual and got nothing of substance done (again the PT did this, and did it better, stop rehashing things). And then it fell, because some jerks led by an out of nowhere Emperor wannabe who we know nothing about, blew up a few planets and then every collapsed within like a day or two. Leia's life's work crumbles in record time, and her Resistance is all but obliterated within days as well.

Luke's JO (which again we never got actually SEE) is wipped out OFFSCREEN because apparently he learned nothing from the mistakes of his mentors and just did them all over again, and we have another evil Skywalker who kills them and goes bad and puts on a mask (again stop repeating things), and Luke just quits and ignores the rising threat to the Galaxy so that he can go pout on some island. And then he dies because, he got tired I guess.

Han loses his son, runs away from his wife (apparently because he doesn't know her at all even after decades of marriage), then his last act is to FAIL to get through to his son, and then he dies.

Again how is any of this "significant." How does THIS make the ending of ROTJ feel satisfying now? Basically the peace didn't even last the old character's lifetimes, they failed at everything in the end, and then they died pathetically while we're right back where we started 30 years ago.

Why are we supposed to find this interesting or satisfying?

This perfectly encapsulates my thoughts. Great post.

 

[dhandler01]

Not really. If you're not racist or sexist then they're not talking about you. It's dead simple.

That would be true if they werent talking in absolute terms. Around here, that is not the case. And if they cant bother to parse out that there are some they are describing but most of us arent like that than they get no consideration from me the other way.

 

[Elayis]

"Toxic fandom...conspiracy theories...racism...sexism...hateful rhetoric...troglodytes...subconscious racism...stealth sexism....vestigial tail of white male fragility..."

I can see he has a well balanced and open minded view of the vocally critical star wars fan demographics. Would you like an extra serve of self-righteous, virtue signalling liberalism to go with that holier than thou, moral preaching and high horse perhaps?

He also waxes lyrical on The Force Awakens, which although a decent movie, was not the tour de force of cinematic genius he espouses.

Frankly he has missed the point on a number of issues.

But whatever makes you feel good bro.

What are you talking about? He's very critical of TFA and its texture-obsessed, mystery box related shortcomings. Makes me wonder if you even read the article with an open mind, or just scanned it for keywords to justify dismissing it.

 

[Frodo]

I wasn't crazy about TLJ myself, but I do find the broad brush painting of those who didn't like it humorous in my own case.

I'm a Black, liberal, partisan, Democrat living in Southern California who lives in a multi-ethnic community and with friends who are from as many different backgrounds as you can think of.

I'm not sexist. Growing up the way I did, I wouldn't have lasted long if I was.

I think Kelly and Daisy are as cute as can be. I have no issue with them or their characters.

I know there was SW EU stuff, and Clone Wars, Rebels but I haven't read or watched them, and I really don't care to be honest.

I grew up with the OT, but I also grew up with Reeve's Superman films, Ninja Turtles, Spiderman , and various other properties like millions of kids my age did back in the day.

So, I'm not some diehard SW fan who's devoted his life to Sw canon. That's why when I'm critical of TLJ, I don't come at it from a position of someone who the deep emotional attachment to Star Wars and its canon that alot of those who love and hate TLJ do.

I really don't. If anything , i've found that i'm a lot less attached to it than those who argue with me in favor or against the film.

In terms of being dogmatic in my fandom, I'm much more dogmatic about The Beatles and their music than SW.

 

[P Supreme]

And no, Luke doing a glorified light show for five minutes so that 20 people can escape and actually not hurting the FO in any way (and no, I don't buy for one second the "he inspired the Galaxy with that" nonsense that Rian Johnson tried to crowbar in there) is not nearly good enough to make up for what they did to his character here, not even close.

Also even the new characters aren't nearly as interesting or well-developed to make up for it.[/QUOTE]

My thoughts exactly
the hologram fake out was brutal AND CORNY

 

[BatLobster]

I think any type of reductionist viewpoint about the demographic breakdown of who liked and didn't like TLJ isn't too helpful. Obviously, you can look at any demographic and find people who liked and didn't like it. It's no good trying to divide people in such broad terms, over a movie no less.

However, all I'm gonna say is there is a certain segment of fandom who hates this movie...let's say, the "loudest". And you can look at Gamergate, Comicsgate, etc. to see where this strain of fandom is coming from. And there is truly bad, abusive behavior coming from that camp that really reflects poorly on all of fandom and is becoming too big a problem to just ignore. And I FULLY recognize that there is a separate backlash that includes a LOT of people who have nothing to do with that stuff. The problem for me is that it is basically the alt-right M.O. to kind of try to blend in with more mainstream cultural movements to gain legitimacy. So you have a lot of actual toxic, abhorrent views hanging out right there with people who are just like "I hated what what they did with Luke Skywalker". And so at the very least, it's a bit of a PR problem for the anti-TLJ side of the movie, fairly or unfairly. And at the same time, it only feeds into the hate machine if you try to address the toxic elements because people just go "SO IF I DIDN'T LIKE THE MOVIE THAT MAKES ME A SEXIST/RACIST/BLAH BLAH". It just becomes this big ol' murky cloud, with a lot of heightened emotions, all about a movie with space wizards.

Personally speaking, even if I loathed TLJ, I'd still like to think that I'd want to be aware of the types of people and viewpoints that are in my echo chamber with me and I'd want to make sure I drew a line in the sand about what type of criticism I was okay with and which I wasn't okay with. Cause when you're just feeding off of anger all day, lines can blur real quick.

I'm a huge Batman fan, I did not care for BvS very much at all. However, I'm quite over it now. For one, it's just a movie. It was Zack Snyder's vision and I still can respect that he had the b*lls to put his vision on screen unapologetically. And obviously there are fans it resonated with, and I respect that-- and I honestly feel bad for them about what happened with JL- just like I feel bad for any fan who simply was disappointed in TLJ and feels like their interest in Star Wars died with that film. But being real, the treatment Snyder got from a lot of fandom AND a lot of the movie critic community was pretty sh**, and often meanspirited. I think it only helped contribute to the negative atmosphere we're currently in. So to me that was all a bit of a learning experience.

I tend to take more of a "I may not agree with the movie you make, but I'll defend your right to make it" type of stance. We will never get interesting movies if filmmakers are too afraid of these rabid fanboy-types to take any chances. So the thing for me is, even if I did hate TLJ, I'm pretty sure I'd still be more sympathetic to the side that simply liked the movie and NOT with the types who are posting these incessant clickbait videos on Youtube or constantly harassing RJ or cast members on Twitter. I'm sorry but it's gotten so bad that it supersedes the actual discussion of the movie to me. I honestly think that's the more useful conversation to have. But in no way does it mean I am labeling anyone who didn't like the movie one of 'those' people. I try to make it a point to clarify that as much as I can.

 

[stlblues84]

My criticisms of the film were more about adding unnecessary characters when an existing character could have handled a situation to make it more impactful.

1) Laura Dern's character was completely unnecessary. You could have easily had Leia be that role. Hero of the rebellion, keeping the hot shot pilot under control, sacrifices herself for the betterment of all.

2) Benicio del Toro's character was forced. They could have very easily had another semi-sleazy gambler take that role. Why not just have Lando play that part? Then, you can even have it play out exactly the same way. At the end, you learn he's now working for the First Order. That would open up tons of questions. Why turn?

My overall large criticism is that I cannot tell who this trilogy is about. In the OT, it was Luke. It was always his story. Whose story is it now? Rey? Luke? Ben? Finn? I have no idea and it doesn't appear that Rian Johnson did either.