The Last Jedi Why are some fans disappointed? - Part 1

[Agent Orange]

Most MCU films score 7/10 average ratings on RT despite their gaudy percentages.

On the Rotten Tomatoes aggregate scale 91% of critics liked the TLJ with an average score of 8.1. 96% of TOP critics liked it (GASP) with the same average rating of 8.1.

Metacritic tabulated the "Top Critic" score as 85.

Seems to me that critics didn't just like it. They scored it highly.

I'm certain that Lucasfilm will adjust to the *cough* hyperbolic outrage. They followed The Last Jedi up with a simple, paint by numbers Legends/Expanded Universe faithful Han Solo movie.

Half the fanbase (likely less) disliked TLJ but it's survived more trying times. Attack of the Clones's box office was a legitimate disappointment and Revenge of the Sith (the birth of the most iconic villain in cinema history) performed modestly for what it promised. The Clone Wars series saw decent television ratings when it premiered but interest waned fast outside of the diehards.

Yeah, Star Wars has been in worse shape. Hopefully the fanbase calms down between now and Christmas 2019.

 

[rocco2216]

See the thing is is that the prequel trilogy didn't kill Star Wars for a lot of fans because when Episode 7, 8, and 9 were announced there was hope again. We were finally getting a sequel trilogy to the original trilogy without the involvement of George Lucas. Mark Hamil, Harrison Ford, and Carrie Fisher were coming back together as Luke Skywalker, Han Solo, and Princess Leia. Now that The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi came out and were what they were, how can that hope come back for people again? Perhaps it can for some but I think many underestimate the love so many have for those characters. They were Star Wars.

 

[Agent Orange]

The prequels didn't "kill" Star Wars for me (fans are being so damn dramatic right now) but it wasn't part of my life between 2005 and 2011 (when I watched Clone Wars on a friend's recommendation).

Here's the thing about Luke, Leia and Han: I never expected those "legacy" characters to be *the* characters in the sequel trilogy. Mark Hamill said it himself before VII began filming "These aren't our movies. We're passing the baton willingly." Quite frankly I was kind of irritated when it was revealed that Han Solo was going to be "the guide" of sorts for our new characters in VII. It seemed odd to me and I'm sure that it was odd to Harrison Ford. It should have been Luke from the beginning if they were going to do that.

I like The Last Jedi a great deal but it's obvious to me that neither Johnson or Lucasfilm could move on from Luke without making him the focus of the picture. When it came to the legacy characters the folks at Lucasfilm were in a "Damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation. They weren't able to move on from the legacy characters without tearing off the proverbial band-aid. And I get that it hurt for a lot of people but the *drama* is over the top.

 

[rocco2216]

The prequels didn't "kill" Star Wars for me (fans are being so damn dramatic right now) but it wasn't part of my life between 2005 and 2011 (when I watched Clone Wars on a friend's recommendation).

Here's the thing about Luke, Leia and Han: I never expected those "legacy" characters to be *the* characters in the sequel trilogy. Mark Hamill said it himself before VII began filming "These aren't our movies. We're passing the baton willingly." Quite frankly I was kind of irritated when it was revealed that Han Solo was going to be "the guide" of sorts for our new characters in VII. It seemed odd to me and I'm sure that it was odd to Harrison Ford. It should have been Luke from the beginning if they were going to do that.

I like The Last Jedi a great deal but it's obvious to me that neither Johnson or Lucasfilm could move on from Luke without making him the focus of the picture. When it came to the legacy characters the folks at Lucasfilm were in a "Damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation. They weren't able to move on from the legacy characters without tearing off the proverbial band-aid. And I get that it hurt for a lot of people but the *drama* is over the top.

It's definitely over the top. However, I think they could have handled the OT characters a whole lot better than they did. Alas, it is what it is.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

I can agree with that too.

it’s nice that we can find common ground for once. But you have at least been rational through all of this.

 

[Frodo]

As far as I was concerned , after ROTS in 2005, I thought the SW film franchise was done, and that was simply because the Skywalker story was SW to the general audience at that time, and that story had resolved itself in the first 6 films.

I heard rumors that GL wanted to make episode 7-9 even back in the 90s, but I never longed for another SW film after 2005. Maybe there was a desire from the diehard SW fans ,but there really wasn't this outcry for another SW film post ROTS as far as the GA goes.

I was very surprised when I found out Disney had bought Lucasfilm and wanted to make episode 7-9. I thought it was done basically, so I was surprised there was even a desire to make more films. That said, TFA certainly became an event and rejuvenated the franchise

I always knew it would be a passing of the torch because the actors were older. One of the debates around the new trilogy films, is how the torch was done as opposed to the torch being passed in general, and whether it was done the "satisfactory way". Whether it was done in a satisfactory way is subjective.

I could make arguments either way on it in all honesty.

The way I see it, as long as someone's not resorting to personal insults or bulling and jerkish behavior, I doesn't bother me how people express their feelings like or dislike about the film.

Its the ad hom attacks that have really made the discourse surrounding TLJ toxic imo.

 

[Last Skywalker]

O hai troll. You know damn well that's not true, and I know that you know it too. You're getting sloppier.

Everybody, be wary of this guy. I don't care if you agree with him or not. He is just here to entertain himself and stir the pot, and it's obvious.

Yet I've been very consistent in my statements... they just happen to be ones you don't agree with.

Phantom Menace and Force Awakens carried MUCH more hype, and were among the most hyped films in history.

Phantom Menace? Hmm.. i'd say it ranks. TFA? Not no way, not no how. Most people didn't even bother caring until after the movie had played. I pretty much ignored what was going on with Star Wars outside of a trailer watch until December.

TLJ? That thing had two years of hype behind it, covering the spectrum of fans, most with an opinion on where the story might be heading. Trying to claim TFA had more hype than TLJ is either a retcon, or you are way too hardcore a fan and that colored your perception. Most fans were coming out of cold storage and simply wanted whatever they put out not to suck. There were very low expectations for that film and whatever hype there was, was in an echo chamber of the ForeverSold.

What you're really keying on here and is grating your gears is the realization that TFA did as well as it did without a lot of hype, and TLJ did as poorly as it did with all the hype in the world. What ultimately counted was how the movie was received by fans.

TFA was received very well and lit off the fandom such that to this day you're trying to retcon the expectations in order to sell a false narrative that it was 'once in a generation'. TLJ dumped a bucket of green milk on the fans.

The hype for those films were media stories.

Media really means nothing per 'hype'. The only real hype that matters is with the fans. Did TFA have a world-class marketing plan? Sure. The best thing about a marketing plan is that it gets people everywhere aware of your movie. Its the movie itself that sold the movie and causes fans to go back.

Its also the movie itself that builds the real hype and expectations for its sequel, particularly given its to end the trilogy. As an example, the hype for 9 is non-existent because TLJ failed in nearly every aspect imaginable, including setting up its sequel. How do I know it failed? They couldn't even get $400 million in ticket sales for Solo, for which the overly low projections of $800 million means it made half the basement floor.

That's always the way it's been when Star Wars returns after a dormant period. What you're describing is true for something like Batman Begins and Dark Knight.

You mean... great movies that are structured to build rather than destroy?

You had a great movie with 7 and it got followed up by amateur hour with 8. When you put out a Bad Movie, your momentum gets shot. If people don't trust you to make good movies any more, they stay away and the well gets thoroughly poisoned. This isn't rocket science. You can't simply put out bad films and be able to spend enough money to have them be considered good. It actually has to be a decent movie.

People may have been unsure about more Star Wars...until that first teaser hit. All those reaction videos of people crying and losing their minds.

OMG.. Youtubers were crying? Really? If you watch Youtubers crying, you might be a ForeverSold. Its not indicative of anything concerning actual hype and expectations.

Stop it. There was nothing close to that with TLJ. The Youtube trailer views weren't even on the same level. There was no "Chewie, we're home" moment. That broke the f'ing internet.

No.. you only had the return of everyone's childhood hero for the first time in 35 years.

I knew people that wouldn't even watch the trailers for fear of spoilers. They knew they were going and the less they knew the better. Thats the amount of trust that was at play here. TLJ's first weekend was one of the most bulletproof in history. The second weekend... now that everybody knew the deal... featured the single largest weekend-to-weekend drop in movie history. Make no mistake, the fans were there, and repeatedly if the film was even remotely good. Think I saw it Thursday night and as I was getting seated the guy in the next row was talking about how he already had tickets for Tuesday, but just couldn't wait.

The return of Luke was a big deal, absolutely, but that's also kind of people went into TFA assuming they'd get and they kinda got swindled there. You can only pop the cherry of seeing those characters for the first time after 40 years once.

You can also destroy everyone's favorite childhood hero once.

And the funny thing is, I never once said that TLJ being divisive didn't have a negative effect on the box office. I believe it obviously did. But I think it's a very big claim to say that it would've cruised to 2 billion again easily, in fact one that there is no precedent for in a franchise (back to back 2 billion dollar films).

I wouldn't be surprised if Gallant says hi to Goofus with A4 next year and takes that record(however you want to phrase it).

There are only four films in that 2 billion+ club, and 50% of them were made by James Cameron. And I'm not one to bet against Marvel, they have cracked the code in a way the rest of Hollywood is still trying to figure out, but even they are going to start seeing diminishing returns at some point. Maybe not with A4, but once roles start getting recast and stuff it's likely gonna happen.

I certainly imagine that as A4 lays out the box office that they'll need to find a way to pivot to whatever comes next. Part of it is highly dependent on things outside of their control with the Fox merger mess(Avengers vs X-Men anybody?). But I have trust and faith in Marvel at this point. No reason not to.

The other thing to keep in mind with Marvel is their films don't have to make $2 billion. One thing they are extremely good at is delivering a film for the right budget for the expected audience and on time. So even if you have say Ant-Man and the Wasp not breaking records, its still making money for the company by the end of the process.

I just want you to know that there's nothing you can do to convince me you're not a troll, and in fact a specific troll that I once knew from the Bat-boards who once touted having many, many accounts on here after he got banned and started making ghost accounts.

What the heck are the 'Bat-boards' lol?

And I don't care about convincing you, lol. If I were ghosting accounts, they would have banned me by now. Lets not pretend that they can't scan by IP.

If by Bat boards you mean Batman? Just lol @ the thought that you think I like DC that much. Seriously

I love how you keep engaging with me directly despite that, and just making it easy with these blatant straw man arguments.

As opposed to your ad hominem attacks ?

 

[BatLobster]

Not even reading that.

Guys, dude with 88 posts multi-quoting the F*** out of me, sentence by sentence. We're supposed to believe he's never posted here before super recently, right?

 

[Last Skywalker]

Not even reading that.

Guys, dude with 88 posts multi-quoting the F*** out of me, sentence by sentence. We're supposed to believe he's never posted here before super recently, right?

Correct lol. Seriously.. I find it particularly funny. But hey.. i'll leave you to whatever your mind is locked on lol. Maybe one day you'll figure out what you don't even know and come to a correct conclusion.

 

[Aximili86]

Now tell me, how was the audience score on Rotten Tomatoes?

We've been talking critics since the start, champ. The audience aren't critics.

Also, the general audience don't go vote on rotten tomatoes. That's for us hardcore movie nerds, normal people don't do that. It's not indicative of much other than the "we hate it" guys are vocal and take time out of their day to vote it down.

Which, yeah, has nothing to do with the critical response.

Nice obfuscation though.

 

[batfreakforever]

People go bat@#$& crazy on the internet over most things now so the backlash against TLJ is just another thing for people to get angry about. Just add it to the never ending lists of things to complain about. I'm really not surprised anymore. I expect most thing to get @#$&ed on these days. People seem more arrogant and petty now or probably they just have a platform now to express those problems.
I never had a problem with TLJ and as a Star Wars fan I like to frequently browse forums to see what others think and find out new things about the movies but majority of the time its just negative ranting which I find frustrating and pathetic.

 

[Frodo]

Between The Backlash to TLJ and The Backlash to the Backlash of TLJ, yeah, SW fandom has become a dumpster fire.

The two extremes are actually a lot more alike than they realize or want to admit. They're just opposite sides of the same coin.

In this case , there are two sides which are both equally dogmatic and venomous, clashing with some sort of hope the other side will eventually give up.

Of course that's not gonna happen, but they keep clashing, flaming, dismissing, insulting, etc, anyway in some futile hope it will.

I actually think Solo's failure made things worse in SW fandom civil war , then it otherwise might have been had Solo been a hit.

Timing wise , it seemed like Solo's failure just added more fuel to the fire.

 

[batfreakforever]

I didn't care that Solo underperformed at the box office or had massive reshoots and changed directors because all that is irrelevant to me.
The final product is what counts. I liked the actor for Han and the action and storytelling was exciting but fans need to have justification for their movie or franchise with box office results and professional reviews.
That doesn't mean Star Wars is on the decline. It's only one film.
TLJ made a over 1.3 billion which is a very impressive amount at the b.o with great reviews from professional critics. TLJ is in no way a failure but bloggers/the mighty and all reliable Internet will argue otherwise. It's simply not true. Some very vocal fans just didn't like the story which doesn't make the movie a failure.
The public and fans go by box office and professional critical reviews. (I don't) but thats how its usually judged as a failure or not.
Disney have made $4,841,423,762 at the box office from the 4 films released and a couple of billion from merchandise and home video releases. I don't think Disney are crying over it too much as fans make it out to be. Disney have nothing to be worried about. Oh but Disney so called lost 50 to 100 million on Solo. Who cares. Thats chump change to them.
Episode 9 and spin offs will be fine.

 

[Last Skywalker]

And I do consider it an Experiment.

Currently you have various differing methods of handling overarc'ing universes that now cover the spectrum.

MARVEL STUDIOS:

The first out of the gate was Marvel, whose selected modus operendi was to start with standalone stories highlighting a character, and then gradually build movie-to-movie in an overarcing story(that of The Infinity Gauntlet).

The biggest aspect of what they did is build trust with the audience. At the start, nobody was sure Marvel Studios could even make their own films. So Marvel came back with.. here are some of our heavy hitters in origin stories.

And they sold. Ok... you can do that.. but what about a teamup?

They delivered The Avengers.

Phase 2 they got a bit experimental and had some missteps(Iron Man 2, Thor 2). Note that they could have slagged off on the fans for not really liking these, but they assessed what went wrong and put that knowledge into Phase 3.

Phase 3 they've been hitting on all cylinders. The fact they did this after the murky Phase 2, builds even more trust. You can misstep, but you can learn. And wow what movies.

Each step of the way, a methodical building of trust with the audience as the Universe slowly expanded over a 10 year period. It also had a heavily level of planning to it, and the willingness to punt on so-called auteurs that didn't trust the system (Ed Norton, Terrence Howard).

DC Cinematic Universe:

Late to the party, they tried to do the same thing with minimal planning, and in reverse. This proved to be an absolute debacle. They had a good movie with Man of Steel.... and then tried jumpstarting the big 3 with BvS. The core problem here is that at points, some people weren't even familiar with the fact Gadot was playing Wonder Woman, primarily because nobody ever seems to mention DC characters by name(just what?). Had the WW movie come out BEFORE BvS… i'm relatively sure BvS plays a lot better.

At this point, they only have Aquaman, which was greenlit before things fell apart and Wonder Woman, which has been the only bright light of the bunch.

Which brings us to:

STAR WARS:

Where Marvel built logically, DC tried to build the reverse, Star Wars took a different tact.

No. Planning. At. All.

Throw down some flags for release dates(most of which ended up being wrong and having to shift), here are 7-9, here are some 'story' films in between... and... GO.

I'm fairly confident in saying that no real thought was put into where this would end up, and they've been fairly up-front about that having been the case. Thus we get a 'blank page' with 8, when clearly a company should sorta kinda want to have goalposts already vaguely defined about the story progression.

You can do this without frogwalking the writer, and honestly... the writer should be fairly greatful in that they're writing a story that the production company is expecting.. not pulling it out of thin air. They're told what they're writing about, not what they're actually writing. This is standard for pretty much any legitimate company. Figure out what you want to make in general, then get a writer to write it in detail.

As an example.. you want to make a Halloween movie like Jason Blum with Blumhouse because you got the rights. You come up with your concept.... Laurie and Michael in a 2018 face-off 40 years later, and then set the writers loose making it happen. You do not start with.. MAKE ME A HALLOWEEN FILM. God knows what they'd come back with.

And I lay these problems directly at Kennedy's feet. She's probably a good producer, especially if the content is already known. But to simply leave all the planning and direction up to the director? Seriously? That should have gotten her fired for even suggesting it. You might as well not even have a producer at that point.

So here we are, four movies into a five movie set. 4 directors had to be fired, at least two movies shifted, few care about what happens in 9, because nobody trusts them to even deliver a watchable film(or Solo would have made more money).

The funny part being that maybe you go well.. the OT did this. Nope. Its well documented that Lucas had the overall fairly early in the process, or he wouldn't have jumped ahead with the first film. Certain things like Vader is Luke's father and Leia his sister were discovered during the process, but the endgame he was headed to wasn't pure vapor. With Kennedy's ineptitude, you can't predict where they'll end up because she doesn't even know.

Either way, I think we can say that this experiment is an utter failure.. and hopefully the only question is when they'll bring in someone that can handle long-term planning to replace her... not if.

And if they can't find someone? I'm fine with Star Wars going away. Forever if need be. You're not going to make bad Star Wars Movies because of the 'toxic' fanbase? Well okie dokie. #wave.

I'd rather have no movies, than bad movies. And i'm quite sure i'm not alone in that.

 

[batfreakforever]

Disney have made almost 5 billion off 4 films and they have great reviews. Its not a failure and far from it so keep deaming mate just because you didn't like what they released.

 

[2kt09]

No planning whatsoever is a stretch. They're doing a main saga alongside prequels to exploit the familiar back catalog of characters. The movies themselves just aren't diverse or unique enough from each other + overpriced to sustain long-term.

 

[Agent Orange]

Lucas hardly had a "bible" when he did the first film and it's well documented that the picture was a mess and was saved in the editing room by Marcia Lucas. I respect George and what he gave us but he also likes to talk. A lot. Most of his early recollection of Star Wars is pure fiction.

And that's all I'll indulge of this... thread.

 

[jmc]

Between The Backlash to TLJ and The Backlash to the Backlash of TLJ, yeah, SW fandom has become a dumpster fire.

The two extremes are actually a lot more alike than they realize or want to admit. They're just opposite sides of the same coin.

In this case , there are two sides which are both equally dogmatic and venomous, clashing with some sort of hope the other side will eventually give up.

Of course that's not gonna happen, but they keep clashing, flaming, dismissing, insulting, etc, anyway in some futile hope it will.

I actually think Solo's failure made things worse in SW fandom civil war , then it otherwise might have been had Solo been a hit.

Timing wise , it seemed like Solo's failure just added more fuel to the fire.

This is 100% correct. The people going into bat strongly for Lucasfilm are being just as ridiculous in their behaviour as those bad behaving fans. What's bizarre to me is the number of people who are supporting Lucasfilm for no particular reason. Star Wars fans have an emotional attachment to the franchise, so I get why they have passionate and sometimes irrational responses, but I fail to see what Lucasfilm has done to suddenly get this same type of support from people. The only explanation I can come up with is that there's a group of people who enjoy the idea of dismantling Star Wars and feel the franchise has to become something else out of some misguided sense the concept is stale. That is the only thing about the support Lucasfilm are getting that makes any sense to me. If you're an author writing an article saying Solo failed because the lead was a man and the reason TFA and TLJ succeeded was because the lead was female, you're just as bat s#!+ delusional as some of the very fans you are criticising.

 

[Frodo]

I didn't care that Solo underperformed at the box office or had massive reshoots and changed directors because all that is irrelevant to me.
The final product is what counts. I liked the actor for Han and the action and storytelling was exciting but fans need to have justification for their movie or franchise with box office results and professional reviews.
That doesn't mean Star Wars is on the decline. It's only one film.
TLJ made a over 1.3 billion which is a very impressive amount at the b.o with great reviews from professional critics. TLJ is in no way a failure but bloggers/the mighty and all reliable Internet will argue otherwise. It's simply not true. Some very vocal fans just didn't like the story which doesn't make the movie a failure.
The public and fans go by box office and professional critical reviews. (I don't) but thats how its usually judged as a failure or not.
Disney have made $4,841,423,762 at the box office from the 4 films released and a couple of billion from merchandise and home video releases. I don't think Disney are crying over it too much as fans make it out to be. Disney have nothing to be worried about. Oh but Disney so called lost 50 to 100 million on Solo. Who cares. Thats chump change to them.
Episode 9 and spin offs will be fine.

I agree with some of what you're saying but disagree with other things. I should make it clear that when I said , failure , I meant financial failure.

Disney does care that it was a financial failure. No studio fine with losing money even if it doesn't bankrupt them, and Disney certainly doesn't. It'd be hard to argue otherwise.

But regardless, I do think Solo's financial failure, and it did fail in that sense, like it or not, made things a bit worse in terms of the fandom, which is what my post was talking about.

Putting aside how we feel and our emotions about the film , I brought up Solo because I think had Solo been a financial success as TFA,RO, and TLJ, it would have been harder for alot of the Anti TLJ fans to claim that "SW is in trouble".

What Solo's failure did , is give the Anti TLJ side a something to point to as something they claim as "proof" that SW is failing.Further they argue that Solo's box office is the result of a backlash to TLJ.

In other words, half of the fanbase claimed to have had their victory against Lucasfilm, and some of them believe that they "took Solo down" and proved " SW is in trouble".

Now whether you or I, believe that narrative, agree with it , or like it or not, that is the spin of the Anti TLJ side of fandom.

As a result, the pro TLJ half was put on the defensive in responding to "the SW is failing narrative". You see it here and other places.

So now you have one side which points to the successes of TFA, RO, and TLJ as proof that everythings fine, and the other side which points to Solo, the rumored spin offs on hold, and the rumored turmoil at Lucasfilm as a sign that things aren't fine.

Again, putting aside our personal feelings about the quality of the films and validity of arguments for and against the films, what I described is the current situation with the SW fandom civil war.

So yes , I think Solo's financial failure did add more fuel to that fire. Whether that's fair or not is irrelevant, that is what the situation is with SW fans now.

 

[Aximili86]

Last, c'mon man. At a certain point you're just noise, go get a little air.

 

[TheDreamMaster]

Christ, I'm so tired of this. So much damn toxicity over one movie. I'm all for having opinions, but Star Wars in under a year became the most toxic fanbase known to the internet. The people so ******** about one film,not counting the outright racist or sexist trolls, need to take a good look at the fact that it is a MOVIE, again, a MOVIE, and move on.

If you don't like it, fine, express your opinion in a sane, thought out way. But I'm so tired of seeing Facebook posts, comments sections, etc., of nothing but an ongoing war against Star Wars from this awful sect of so-called "fans".

 

[Aximili86]

"It's just a movie." I believe it was George who said that.

Yeaaahhhh. Disliking, even hating it I get. But the supposed illegitimacy of the thing as a result of that is moronic, given George digs it. Doesn't really get any more "Star Wars authentic" than the approval of the man himself. And he doesn't just say it about all of them, he seemed pretty middling on TFA.

 

[dhandler01]

Christ, I'm so tired of this. So much damn toxicity over one movie. I'm all for having opinions, but Star Wars in under a year became the most toxic fanbase known to the internet. The people so ******** about one film,not counting the outright racist or sexist trolls, need to take a good look at the fact that it is a MOVIE, again, a MOVIE, and move on.

If you don't like it, fine, express your opinion in a sane, thought out way. But I'm so tired of seeing Facebook posts, comments sections, etc., of nothing but an ongoing war against Star Wars from this awful sect of so-called "fans".

So you came into a thread that was specifically about why some of us dont like a film to complain about fans not liking a film? (not even in here in other places)

If our opinions are so off putting to some of you go to the general thread and avoid all this.

 

[dhandler01]

"It's just a movie." I believe it was George who said that.

Yeaaahhhh. Disliking, even hating it I get. But the supposed illegitimacy of the thing as a result of that is moronic, given George digs it. Doesn't really get any more "Star Wars authentic" than the approval of the man himself. And he doesn't just say it about all of them, he seemed pretty middling on TFA.

No offense to George, but his opinion means dick to me. I like what I like and he can like what he likes. He thought Attack of the Clones was a great idea too should all of us that didnt like that just change our minds because of it?

Why do you seem to be so offended people dont agree with you over this?

 

[Aximili86]

I don't give a **** what you think of the movie. It's the "not maiiii Starr Warrrrrs" crap that's lame, the supposed "Star Wars in name only" tone. Like George didn't come up with the broad strokes these two movies are dealing with himself. It's insane.