Why Can't DC Get it right? - Part 1

[Tacit Ronin]

Just saw Whedon gives his support for Affleck as Batman

Whedon also crapped on the ending of Empire Strikes Back. He doesn't always get it right.

 

[jonathancrane]

Whedon also crapped on the ending of Empire Strikes Back. He doesn't always get it right.

He was criticizing the franchise mentality behind the ending, which is a valid reading of it. I am not saying he is the Nerd God that everyone makes him out to be, but, his criticisms are valid.

 

[BMM]

Some of these numbers are not right. The Harry Potter Franchise has made more than $7 billion.

Domestic totals, not worldwide.

 

[Loki882]

Whedon's argument about ESB's ending is perfectly valid to me. I disagree with hi, but I can see why some people might not like the ending (absolutely NOTHING is resolved).

 

[Blake II]

Adjusting for inflation puts Star Wars and Bond well ahead of the Avengers for the foreseeable future. After 2015, Star Wars will be #1. Here are the adjusted numbers for domestic totals for franchises:

$5,146,439,000 - Bond
$4,674,049,200 - Star Wars
$2,889,298,000 - Harry Potter
$2,718,387,300 - Batman
$2,224,719,600 - Avengers
$2,160,905,000 - Star Trek
$1,919,686,200 - Indiana Jones
$1,829,180,800 - LOTR
$1,748,968,600 - Shrek
$1,731,860,600 - Spiderman
$1,551,858,000 - Pirates of the Caribbean
$1,526,287,900 - Rocky
$1,505,148,200 - Superman
$1,434,426,400 - Twilight
$1,287,947,200 - X-Men
$1,192,507,300 - Transformers
$1,120,378,700 - Exorcist

I like how throughout all these years DC (excluding nolans trilogy) still hasn't cracked the top 10 on that list. Marvel did twice.

 

[GENERAL RAAM582]

Batman's number 4. Superman's on that list too. Did you even read it?

 

[GregComicFan]

I was thinking today that in light of Ben Affleck's casting as Batman in Man of Steel 2, DC's future is not all that different than Marvel's cinematic universe...

MARVEL:
Marvel cinematic universe debuts with Iron Man in Iron Man

DC:
DC cinematic universe debuts with Superman, Man of Steel

MARVEL:
Marvel continues with Iron Man 2 in which fellow Avengers, Black Widow and Nick Fury, get expanded roles. While a decent movie, people complain that it feels like more of a set up for Avengers than an Iron Man sequel.

DC:
DC continues with Man of Steel 2: Batman vs. Superman in which fellow Justice League member, Batman, gets an expanded role. While it may end up being a good movie, people may complain it feels more like a set up for Justice League and less of a true sequel for Man of Steel.

MARVEL:
Marvel continues to build its cinematic universe with stand alone films for Captain America, Thor, and the Incredible Hulk. Unfortunately, Incredible Hulk does not gain the popularity expected, and its main cast member, Edward Norton, is recast for Avengers. The Incredible Hulk becomes the black sheep of the Marvel cinematic universe.

DC:
DC continues to build its cinematic universe with stand alone films for Batman, Wonder Woman, Flash, and Green Lantern. Unfortunately, Green Lantern was released prior to Man of Steel, bombed, and its main cast member, Ryan Reynolds, will be recast for Justice League. Green Lantern becomes the black sheep of the DC cinematic universe.

MARVEL:
The Avengers comes out. Mark Ruffalo replaces Edward Norton as the Hulk.

DC:
Justice League comes out. (UNKNOWN) replaces Ryan Reynolds as the Green Lantern.

MARVEL:
Marvel begins Phase 2 with Iron Man 3, Captain America 2, Thor 2, Guardians of the Galaxy, and Avengers 2.

DC:
DC begins Phase 2 with Man of Steel 3, Batman 2, Wonder Woman 2, Flash 2, and Suicide Squad (or Justice League Dark, or take your pick... etc)

Ben Affleck stars in 5 films... Man of Steel 2, Batman 2, Justice League 1, 2, 3

Robert Downy JR stars in 6 films, Iron Man 1, 2, 3 and Avengers 1, 2, 3

....

....

So basically DC and Marvel are pretty similar if it all goes to plan.

 

[regwec]

Batman's number 4. Superman's on that list too. Did you even read it?

That's the net- opinion first, spare the fact finding- especially if you have to move your eyes a few inches down your screen.

To be fair, though, Superman is just outside the top 10.

 

[blalex620]

I was thinking today that in light of Ben Affleck's casting as Batman in Man of Steel 2, DC's future is not all that different than Marvel's cinematic universe...

MARVEL:
Marvel cinematic universe debuts with Iron Man in Iron Man

DC:
DC cinematic universe debuts with Superman, Man of Steel

MARVEL:
Marvel continues with Iron Man 2 in which fellow Avengers, Black Widow and Nick Fury, get expanded roles. While a decent movie, people complain that it feels like more of a set up for Avengers than an Iron Man sequel.

DC:
DC continues with Man of Steel 2: Batman vs. Superman in which fellow Justice League member, Batman, gets an expanded role. While it may end up being a good movie, people may complain it feels more like a set up for Justice League and less of a true sequel for Man of Steel.

MARVEL:
Marvel continues to build its cinematic universe with stand alone films for Captain America, Thor, and the Incredible Hulk. Unfortunately, Incredible Hulk does not gain the popularity expected, and its main cast member, Edward Norton, is recast for Avengers. The Incredible Hulk becomes the black sheep of the Marvel cinematic universe.

DC:
DC continues to build its cinematic universe with stand alone films for Batman, Wonder Woman, Flash, and Green Lantern. Unfortunately, Green Lantern was released prior to Man of Steel, bombed, and its main cast member, Ryan Reynolds, will be recast for Justice League. Green Lantern becomes the black sheep of the DC cinematic universe.

MARVEL:
The Avengers comes out. Mark Ruffalo replaces Edward Norton as the Hulk.

DC:
Justice League comes out. (UNKNOWN) replaces Ryan Reynolds as the Green Lantern.

MARVEL:
Marvel begins Phase 2 with Iron Man 3, Captain America 2, Thor 2, Guardians of the Galaxy, and Avengers 2.

DC:
DC begins Phase 2 with Man of Steel 3, Batman 2, Wonder Woman 2, Flash 2, and Suicide Squad (or Justice League Dark, or take your pick... etc)

Ben Affleck stars in 5 films... Man of Steel 2, Batman 2, Justice League 1, 2, 3

Robert Downy JR stars in 6 films, Iron Man 1, 2, 3 and Avengers 1, 2, 3

....

....

So basically DC and Marvel are pretty similar if it all goes to plan.

It's WB though, hardly anything concerning DC goes to plan.

I think a big difference between some Marvel fans and those of us who don't particularly enjoy those movies, is the former's willingness to see profit for the studio as the primary reflection of "getting it right". Even on that basis, it is an erroneous comparison with WB, because WB has many other non-comicbook properties to exploit.

Most Marvel fans reason for "getting it right" is that they are fans . Obviously this means they're doing something right to make them want to see more of their movies. You sound like the Transformers haters who say the series sucked because they didn't like it yet the average audience ratings for the movies were no where near what they would be if everyone thought the films sucked. I said this before we all have differing opinions but you tend to come off as if you don't like something then it sucks completely and anyone who does like it you speak down on them. I don't like Call of Duty but that doesn't mean the game by any means sucks.

WB as a studio is a pretty good studio They have their hits and misses like all studios but outside of comic book movies they're okay. Where it comes to comic book movies (the only time anyone compares it to Marvel Studios) they suck, and that's not just me not liking their movies, it's a general consensus.

You can not like Marvel films all you want but their movies by no means suck in terms of profit and the general audience ratings which at the end of the day those two things are the only things that drive Marvel to continue making more movies.

Marvel has a plan for movies all the way up until 2021; that means they're doing something right if they can think that far ahead. What is WB doing?

 

[blalex620]

@regwec There's another difference between DC and Marvel fans: A lot of Marvel fans understand that everything from the comics can't be translated perfectly to the big screen so we give leeway to Marvel with the liberties that they take with the characters. I'm not saying they haven't had some questionable moments but overall they've stayed pretty true. If you're any indication of DC fans then you wouldn't be inclined to give that same leeway to WB at all.

 

[regwec]

I have made it perfectly clear that my antipathy towards Marvel films is mine alone. That doesn't really merit the stock response of "in your opinion!", because that is a given.

I don't really understand what you are talking about with your second post. There are things I didn't like about the Nolan Batmovies, but DC fans as a whole clearly lapped them up. I thought MoS was good.

 

[Mr.M]

So basically DC and Marvel are pretty similar if it all goes to plan.

I think WB is definitely going to go for quality over quantity. Marvel has geared themselves to the younger, teenage crowd, with safe, action/adventure/comedy movies for all ages, and there is no sense for WB chasing an audience they will never sniff compared to Disney over the next decade or so. I think you go for the more critically acclaimed success that are tailored to a slightly more mature audience, that stand out moreso than Marvel films.

I think Affleck fits the mold. He's outgrown that pretty boy image and will be a pretty serious Batman that also captures the charm of Bruce Wayne, in an intelligent way. I think talent will follow with JL. They will bring in veteran actors to fill out the major roles and it probably won't be planned as a trilogy, or at least Affleck's Batman won't be featured in every one.

How is WB possibly going to get these other characters in the fold after GL bombed though? I am thinking WW is next on the docket, not Flash.

 

[Tec15]

I think a big difference between some Marvel fans and those of us who don't particularly enjoy those movies, is the former's willingness to see profit for the studio as the primary reflection of "getting it right". Even on that basis, it is an erroneous comparison with WB, because WB has many other non-comicbook properties to exploit.

Exactly. Couldn't have put it better myself.

 

[DocHolliday]

Some of these numbers are not right. The Harry Potter Franchise has made more than $7 billion.

They ARE correct. Learn to read. These are domestic totals that have been adjusted for inflation. What you're thinking of is worldwide numbers. I didn't bother with those because it's nearly impossible to calculate the adjusted worldwide grosses.

 

[jonathancrane]

I think WB is definitely going to go for quality over quantity. Marvel has geared themselves to the younger, teenage crowd, with safe, action/adventure/comedy movies for all ages, and there is no sense for WB chasing an audience they will never sniff compared to Disney over the next decade or so. I think you go for the more critically acclaimed success that are tailored to a slightly more mature audience, that stand out moreso than Marvel films.

I think Affleck fits the mold. He's outgrown that pretty boy image and will be a pretty serious Batman that also captures the charm of Bruce Wayne, in an intelligent way. I think talent will follow with JL. They will bring in veteran actors to fill out the major roles and it probably won't be planned as a trilogy, or at least Affleck's Batman won't be featured in every one.

How is WB possibly going to get these other characters in the fold after GL bombed though? I am thinking WW is next on the docket, not Flash.

I disagree. While one can read the Marvel films in the fashion you have, one can also do the same for DC. Objectively speaking, Man of Steel recycled a lot of ideas and images from Batman Begins, which is hardly an attestation to originality.

 

[Docker2.0]

I disagree. While one can read the Marvel films in the fashion you have, one can also do the same for DC. Objectively speaking, Man of Steel recycled a lot of ideas and images from Batman Begins, which is hardly an attestation to originality.

Agreed. That quality over quantity argument left the building years ago. If Green Lantern or Jonah Hex would have been hits who knows where we will be. They are throwing out movies for all their little guys but won't touch WW or Flash. Only someone who is totally blind will use that argument.

 

[Mr.M]

I disagree. While one can read the Marvel films in the fashion you have, one can also do the same for DC. Objectively speaking, Man of Steel recycled a lot of ideas and images from Batman Begins, which is hardly an attestation to originality.

MoS did not acheive high accaim from a creative standpoint. But I think it did go for a more mature audience. It was too dark and violent for young children and mass audiences. By minimizing Lois Lane's role, I don't think it produced much appeal to women. Henry Cavil was good, but certainly did not offer the charm or charisma of a Chris Reeves.

But originality does not always attest to quality. MoS simply had too many shortcomings from a writing and creative standpoint. It was not much better than most Marvel movies. So they can simply improve on that going forward, hopefully, without oversaturating the market.

Agreed. That quality over quantity argument left the building years ago. If Green Lantern or Jonah Hex would have been hits who knows where we will be. They are throwing out movies for all their little guys but won't touch WW or Flash. Only someone who is totally blind will use that argument.

You can't simply dwell on the past. Jonah Hex, The Losers, Constantine, these movies have their demographic. They failed in what they attemped to do, creatively and/or financially or otherwise. No different than what had taken place at other studios with Ghost Rider and Elecktra. It happens, but time to move forward. MoS is now the launching pad, so they have to move forward with that.

 

[T"Challa]

MoS did not acheive high accaim from a creative standpoint. But I think it did go for a more mature audience. It was too dark and violent for young children and mass audiences. By minimizing Lois Lane's role, I don't think it produced much appeal to women. Henry Cavil was good, but certainly did not offer the charm or charisma of a Chris Reeves.

If you make a Superman movie that is too dark and violent for kids and mass audiences then you've missed a significant aspect of the character. Superman is probably most popular among young boys. He's an inspirational figure that they aspire to be like. Sometimes people on this board like to act like making a movie accessible to kids is inherently a bad thing and that confuses the hell out of me tbh.

 

[jonathancrane]

There are franchises that negotiate the tension-adult vs. child-quite well. Doctor Who, Harry Potter, Star Wars, and so on (not the prequel trilogy, tho.) Superman can be done as a mature story and still appeal to children. The MCU is an attestation to a successful balance of these two forces.

 

[blalex620]

That's because anything aimed at the whole family is just not going to be good enough to them. Yet they forget all of these characters are based around appealing to kids.

 

[jonathancrane]

I am still puzzled over the concern: Man of Steel is quite a dark film. Images of neck-snapping, collapsing buildings and planets, demolished towns, and murder are shown with considerable detail in the film. Atop of the visual stimuli, the film prods dark topics such as genocide, planetary destruction, loss of parents, and so on. I would hardly say that anyone would argue the film was a Saturday morning cartoon. Having said that, Snyder offset the narrative darkness with sunny sequences: Clark's revenge on the trucker, the flying sequences, and so on.

I doubt that WB is going to pull a Batman Forever/Batman&Robin. They are aware of the damage that camp can do to franchises: especially since the film is a massive gamble, they are going to try to pad the film both ways -in terms of maturity and excitement for younger people-to make sure they can wring every dollar out of every possible consumer.

After all, the merchandising campaign is going to be a dream for them; they want to make sure that they please the consumers who will go and pick up the Superman frisbees and Jungle Attack Batman action figures...

 

[Loki882]

Man of Steel didn't minimize Lois's role at all. She is literally there with Clark BEFORE he becomes Superman. If anything, she helped him become Superman. Her role and importance were expanded, not minimized.

 

[Green Goblin]

DC Phase 1
MOS
BvS
Arrow
Flash
Wonder Woman
Event Movie- Justice League

 

[Powerman34]

I am still puzzled over the concern: Man of Steel is quite a dark film. Images of neck-snapping, collapsing buildings and planets, demolished towns, and murder are shown with considerable detail in the film. Atop of the visual stimuli, the film prods dark topics such as genocide, planetary destruction, loss of parents, and so on. I would hardly say that anyone would argue the film was a Saturday morning cartoon. Having said that, Snyder offset the narrative darkness with sunny sequences: Clark's revenge on the trucker, the flying sequences, and so on.

I doubt that WB is going to pull a Batman Forever/Batman&Robin. They are aware of the damage that camp can do to franchises: especially since the film is a massive gamble, they are going to try to pad the film both ways -in terms of maturity and excitement for younger people-to make sure they can wring every dollar out of every possible consumer.

After all, the merchandising campaign is going to be a dream for them; they want to make sure that they please the consumers who will go and pick up the Superman frisbees and Jungle Attack Batman action figures...

Quite a dark film? How limbs were cut off in the Star Wars OT again? Wasn't a while planet blown up? And how died when both Death Stars blew up? Were those dark also?

 

[Spider-Vader]

*Batman soft reboot*

I love the Nolan movies, but I hope the new Batman isn't vaguely the Nolan Batman. I want to see Ra's Al Ghul, Two-Face & Bane again eventually.