Why Did Sam Raimi Go Along w/ the Venom Plan?

[Spider-Kid]

^^ I was just having a bad time, talking to fanboys regarding Spider-Man 3, plus being overdrafted...it sucks when you pay for gas on credit and you forget about, THEN it shows up on your bill three days later.

Kk, sorry. And yeah...that sure sucks.

 

[zeptron]

You know I remember reading that they were gonna have an air battle between Harry and Vulture. Oh how awesome that could have been. **** you Arad!

 

[Spider-Kid]

You know I remember reading that they were gonna have an air battle between Harry and Vulture. Oh how awesome that could have been. **** you Arad!

He just had to go with the Venom idea didn't he.... lousy f*******.

 

[TMC1982]

I think it was just me, it wasn't the whole scene, my memory just got a bit mixed up with what was said as I hadn't seen it in a while due to skippage.
I wasn't sure if Peter had brought up the part that he could've stopped the robber, I could only recall the bit where he brought up the fact that he had Ben drive him out to the city under false pretences.

RE: the Vulture. Yeah, like yourself and LF, i too would've preferred to have seen a Ben Kingsley Vulture in SM3. I think Venom and teh symbiote deserved it get it's own movie, but i still enjoy what we got of it in SM3.
I'm hoping we'll still get a BK Vulture in a future Raimi SM movie.

I'm pretty sure that this has been said already, but I say it again, if they wanted to use the symbiote and Venom, they should've saved it for the fourth movie. Shoehorning all that stuff when you already have Sandman and Harry in line as the main antagonists is really asking for trouble. I don't understand why Ari Arad just couldn't have been more patient. It was a virtual lock that there was going to be a fourth movie anyway based on how much money this franchise has made.

 

[drmick]

Interesting thread this one (even if the whole SM2/SM3 thing is off topic!).

In answer to the title question:

Avi Arad insisted ($$$$), but between Arad and David Koepp's writing they made a convncing argument thematically, as somebody on page 2 pointed out.

However some points I'd like to add:

1. Most criticisms would still apply if it was Vulture instead of Venom; crowded cast, long running time, rushed plot, MJ/Gwen issues, Raimi's kids, possibly Jennifer Dugan, Peter acting like a crybaby girl etc etc. So realistically it wasn't the inclusion of Venom that sullied the film.

2. EVERYBODY (yes, including you!) underestimated James Franco's ability to portray a convincing villain. In hindsight he may have been able to be the sole villain if necessary.

3. The film would have been better if it only had two villains. So your options are:

• New Goblin and Sandman
• New Goblin and Venom
• Sandman and Venom

The producers in the end almost effectively went for the New Goblin and Venom option as most of Sandman's background ended up on the editing room floor.

4. It was impossible to have this debate on SHH in May 2007, because the boards were flooded with idiots who seemed to think this was the best film of the franchise.

 

[VenomVsSpidey]

^^
I think it's the best of the franchise, and I'm no idiot.

 

[VenomVsSpidey]

^^
I think it's the best of the franchise, and I'm no idiot.

 

[david icke]

4. It was impossible to have this debate on SHH in May 2007, because the boards were flooded with idiots who seemed to think this was the best film of the franchise.

I think that the 3 movies all have their pros and cons, and that the 3rd is on a par with teh first two for that reason, and I'm not an idiot either.

btw, the points you have 'added' have been discussed already, with the possible exception of Harry being sole villan and how surprising you found his villanous turn in SM3.

I think it was pretty obvious that Harry could be a great villan in SM2, as essentially he is a villan for part of that movie. supplying Ock with dangerous materials in exchange for the life of someone he wants to kill.

And i don't think they would have ever went for teh idea of him being sole villan. a. Because we already just had a sole Goblin movie. b. Because Raimi wanted the story to go end up with Pete and Harry coming back together as friends before he died. ie teaming up against some other villan/s.

And as for the point that you would have had the same problem with Vulture. Not necesarily, and not exactly the same problem as Venom being introduced.
It has already been discussed that it was not only the fact of Venom being introduced but that of the whole symbiote plot which feeds into every faceat of teh story, as well as being a more outlandish origin to be introduced and made paltable, it being extraterrestrial.

 

[zeptron]

1. Most criticisms would still apply if it was Vulture instead of Venom; crowded cast, long running time, rushed plot, MJ/Gwen issues, Raimi's kids, possibly Jennifer Dugan, Peter acting like a crybaby girl etc etc. So realistically it wasn't the inclusion of Venom that sullied the film.

I don't think Gwen was originally gonna be in three. I think that was Arad's idea to bring her in along with Venom.

Unlike Venom, Vulture would have had a connection to Sandman. Them being escaped cellmates would have been a lot better than Sandman and Venom just teaming up. Horrible writing right there.

People like to say that SM3 was overcrowded when that's not even what went wrong. What did "emo" Peter Parker, arguably everyone's least favorite part of the movie, have to with the amount of characters?

2. EVERYBODY (yes, including you!) underestimated James Franco's ability to portray a convincing villain. In hindsight he may have been able to be the sole villain if necessary.

I don't think it would it have been a good idea for him being the sole villain. Because like the above poster said we had just gotten a movie with a goblin as the only villain. Fanboys might not have cared, but the GA most likely wouldn't have accepted it. It probably would have had them think the majority of Spider-man's rogue gallery were goblin like villains.

 

[The Joker]

People like to say that SM3 was overcrowded when that's not even what went wrong. What did "emo" Peter Parker, arguably everyone's least favorite part of the movie, have to with the amount of characters?

Overcrowding is definitely what went wrong. Too much was put in there, and as a result, they had to try and come up with a way to make it all be linked together. Hence the results of rubbish like Sandman being Ben's killer, the lame random team up of Venom and Sandman, and of course the symbiote just deciding to attach to Peter's motorcycle at the time when he was the happiest he's ever been.

Emo Peter was one of the least favorite parts, because it wasn't funny or cute, it was just embarrassing and stupid. And the reason it was in there was because the symbiote storyline was shoe horned in there. So it was a dominos effect of the overcrowding.

 

[zeptron]

Overcrowding is definitely what went wrong. Too much was put in there, and as a result, they had to try and come up with a way to make it all be linked together. Hence the results of rubbish like Sandman being Ben's killer, the lame random team up of Venom and Sandman, and of course the symbiote just deciding to attach to Peter's motorcycle at the time when he was the happiest he's ever been.

Emo Peter was one of the least favorite parts, because it wasn't funny or cute, it was just embarrassing and stupid. And the reason it was in there was because the symbiote storyline was shoe horned in there. So it was a dominos effect of the overcrowding.

I think if they would have not focused too much on Peter and MJ's relationship and taken out useless things such as Peter dancing and singing, MJ and Harry cooking and other unnecessary stuff and had used that time to focus on the villains and give them more depth we would have gotten a better movie. I mean so many scenes with Sandman got cut but stupid scenes like the strutting make it?

The way black suit Spidey and Venom were handled was what really went wrong IMO. I mean both S:TAS and TSSM did the symbiote story a lot better. They developed many things(more than the movie did) with 60/90 minutes. Telling the symbiote saga and Peter's showdown with Venom.

Instead of making the black-suit plot the dark territory it was supposed be, they decided to turn Peter into a joke. We never saw him stop bad-guys in a really aggresive way. We saw him fully clothed in the suit ONCE. ONE fight with the suit. They had all these photos at the Bugle of black Spidey doing cool stuff. Including my favorite shoving a guy through a car windshield. Instead of a stupid montague of him dancing in the streets, we should have gotten a montague of him REALLY laying the smackdown on some bad guys.

 

[TMC1982]

I don't think Gwen was originally gonna be in three. I think that was Arad's idea to bring her in along with Venom.

Unlike Venom, Vulture would have had a connection to Sandman. Them being escaped cellmates would have been a lot better than Sandman and Venom just teaming up. Horrible writing right there.

People like to say that SM3 was overcrowded when that's not even what went wrong. What did "emo" Peter Parker, arguably everyone's least favorite part of the movie, have to with the amount of characters?








I don't think it would it have been a good idea for him being the sole villain. Because like the above poster said we had just gotten a movie with a goblin as the only villain. Fanboys might not have cared, but the GA most likely wouldn't have accepted it. It probably would have had them think the majority of Spider-man's rogue gallery were goblin like villains.

It was apparently, Laura Ziskin's idea to include Gwen Stacy, not Avi Arad's. If you had to include Venom, I wish that the filmmakers would've adapted the plotline from the 1990s animated series (explaining how Spidey got in contact with the symbiote). In the process, edit out all the stuff involving the supposed love triangle with Peter, MJ and Harry as well as MJ's career woes.

I would have Eddie Brock to be like a younger version of J. Jonah Jameson, in that he too doesn't like costumed crimefighters (thinking that Spider-Man takes all of the credit instead of normal people, like policemen). I suppose that Eddie could also represent the more sensational, sleezy aspect of journalism (in the process trying to expose Spider-Man's identity).

It's sad that the video game actually gave a more rationale explaination for why Sandman and Venom would teamup. In the video game, Venom blackmails Sandman into helping him by kidnapping Sandman's daughter. In the movie however, it was basically like this, "I hate Spider-Man, you hate Spider-Man, lets be friends!!!"

 

[Hobgoblin]

I assume the Arad told Sam that if he didnt make the movie the way that Sony and Marvel wanted (ie, include Venom) than they would find a director that would. Since Sam obviously does love the character so much (despite what some fans say) he grudgingly went along with the plan. Venom was going to be in the film no matter what, so Sam had to accept it.

You know I remember reading that they were gonna have an air battle between Harry and Vulture. Oh how awesome that could have been. **** you Arad!

*sigh*
That would have been epic.

 

[VenomVsSpidey]

It's sad that the video game actually gave a more rationale explaination for why Sandman and Venom would teamup. In the video game, Venom blackmails Sandman into helping him by kidnapping Sandman's daughter. In the movie however, it was basically like this, "I hate Spider-Man, you hate Spider-Man, lets be friends!!!"

that's the ALT. team up scene from the novel / shot for the film but went unused

 

[Hobgoblin]

Venom kidnapping Penny would have been great. Brock needed to be more of a ******* and less of a little whiner. He would have been much more impressive that way.

 

[drmick]

I'm not entirely sure why the original scene was cut. It was obviously late in the day, since the making of book describes and features a photo of the scene.

Brock was also kidnapping Gwen originally too. That swap was made AFTER principal photography began.

With regards the Park scene and Penny, i'm gonna assume that they cut so much other of the Marko family stuff out earlier in the film, it wouldn't have made sense.

Yet using Bernard as the voice of reason made so much more sense? "Died by his own hand" indeed. Well then, so did Harry!

Woefully put together film.

 

[Venom 1988]

^^^
What's funny is that in the original version of Gwen being kidnapped, MJ was supposed to visit Harry and be the voice of reason to him.

 

[Venom 1988]

edit

 

[LightningFlash]

You know I remember reading that they were gonna have an air battle between Harry and Vulture. Oh how awesome that could have been. **** you Arad!

When it was supposedly just Sandman and Vulture, I didn't hear anything regarding Harry becoming the New Rocket Racer Goblin. I thought it was only forced into the storyline because of Vulture's absence and the late entry of Venom WAY into the third act.

^^
I think it's the best of the franchise, and I'm no idiot.

Haha....

not gonna say it.

 

[[A]]

Why Did Sam Raimi Go Along w/ the Venom Plan?

So he could have at least one real bad guy in his movie. Remember, Goblin Jr and Sandman were goodie-goods!

 

[LightningFlash]

*****ebag Eddie and Emo Symbiote does not count as "evil".

 

[VenomVsSpidey]

Haha....

not gonna say it.

wow...good one......

 

[VenomVsSpidey]

*****ebag Eddie and Emo Symbiote does not count as "evil".

crying does not make you "Emo"

having hair like someone who is an Emo does not make you an emo.

complaining about life and how unfair it is and things never go my way!! that makes an emo

if anything, peter was an emo in SM2.

 

[gridlockd]

I assume the Arad told Sam that if he didnt make the movie the way that Sony and Marvel wanted (ie, include Venom) than they would find a director that would. Since Sam obviously does love the character so much (despite what some fans say) he grudgingly went along with the plan. Venom was going to be in the film no matter what, so Sam had to accept it.

You may be right but I just find it hard to believe that Arad could be in a position to threaten Raimis job after Raimi just delievered two back-to-back worldwide box office juggernauts. I can't imagine anyone (at Sony or Marvel) would allow him to fire Sam Raimi. (The guy has proven twice over now that he's more than capable of delivering a wildly sucessfull, critically acclaimed Spider Man movie.) And I can't believe Raimi was actually afraid that was a possibilty. Sam, I hate to say it, must be a bigger wuss than I thought not to stand up to the guy. (And yet, he fought the studios for Tobey to be cast) There's gotta be more to the story that sadly, we may never know.

 

[david icke]

You may be right but I just find it hard to believe that Arad could be in a position to threaten Raimis job after Raimi just delievered two back-to-back worldwide box office juggernauts. I can't imagine anyone (at Sony or Marvel) would allow him to fire Sam Raimi. (The guy has proven twice over now that he's more than capable of delivering a wildly sucessfull, critically acclaimed Spider Man movie.) And I can't believe Raimi was actually afraid that was a possibilty. Sam, I hate to say it, must be a bigger wuss than I thought not to stand up to the guy. (And yet, he fought the studios for Tobey to be cast) There's gotta be more to the story that sadly, we may never know.

Calling Sam Raimi a 'wuss' is just insulting, and shows a ceratin naivety to the machinations of teh entertainment industry.
Sam Raimi does not have any claim on Spider-man, Spider-man is a mulit-billion dollar industry, owned by a large corporation. They can do what they want with the character.
I listened to the SM3 commentary recently for the 1st time, Raimi says there was 'a mandate' for Venom and the black suit story to be included in SM3.
ie You either put it in the movie or someone else does, but no matter what Venom will be in SM3.
That just the way it is with owned characters, at the end of the day Raimi is work for hire, this happens with Editors and publishers on comicbooks taking control too, the writer doesn't always get to do what they want with the characters.
I imagine if you knew some of the background stories to some of the great comicbook creators, you'd be calling them a 'wuss', when all they are doing is their best in an impossible situation.
Raimi did the best thing, he took it on and adapted it the best he could, he was the best man for the job, he knew and had the trust of all the returning actors, and knew how to put a SM movie together. To throw all that away and put the movie into someone else's hands would have been a disservice to the actors and the fans. He did the best with the situation he was given.
I imagine you think that if he had flung a JJJ type tandrum in the office or offered to take in Avi Arad on in rock, paper, scissors and won, he would have gotten his own way. But real life is not like the comicbooks.