Why Did Sam Raimi Go Along w/ the Venom Plan?

[gridlockd]

Why do you keep taking my comments about someone neither of us even knows so personally? I'm not really calling him a wuss. Obviously, I dont know him. Neither do you. So I could be right. You could be right. But stop getting so insulted. YOu don't have to defend him. Sam doesn't need your help, I'm sure. I exaggerate to make a point. A point that gets lost in your knee-jerk sticking-up for Sam Raimi. We all obviously love Sam Raimi and Spider Man. We wouldn't be here otherwise. I'm speculating. Obviously. I said 'he must be a wuss, but then again he fought the studios.' I doubt Sam Raimi is going to cry himself to sleep tonight over my comments on a freakin message board.

And personally, I think Spider Man 3 was a disservice to fans. Sorry, its lazy, sloppy and at times, pretty insulting. It's a bad movie. It ruins the trilogy. Sam knew Venom was a bad idea. He compromised his vision and beliefs and paid the price. Maybe he has a perfectly wonderful excuse but it doesn't change the final product.
You say I should be all grateful that he gave into a mandate so it didn't maybe fall into someone elses's hands? If he didn't want to do it or didn't believe in it, maybe he shouldn't have. But he took the money, did the movie and put his name on it. If they fired him, which seems beyond unlikely, at least all the blame would fall squarely on Arad. If Raimi wants to explain what happened behind the scenes and finally silence me and my horrible, ugly insults once and for all, then that could put an end to all this. Until then, I'll have to speculate. Maybe I do have a 'ceratin naivety to the machinations of teh entertainment industry', but something tells me you're no Hollywood insider either. Your guess is as good as mine. Don't forget that. And stop taking a spiderman 3 movie message board so seriously.

Calling Sam Raimi a 'wuss' is just insulting, and shows a ceratin naivety to the machinations of teh entertainment industry.
Sam Raimi does not have any claim on Spider-man, Spider-man is a mulit-billion dollar industry, owned by a large corporation. They can do what they want with the character.
I listened to the SM3 commentary recently for the 1st time, Raimi says there was 'a mandate' for Venom and the black suit story to be included in SM3.
ie You either put it in the movie or someone else does, but no matter what Venom will be in SM3.
That just the way it is with owned characters, at the end of the day Raimi is work for hire, this happens with Editors and publishers on comicbooks taking control too, the writer doesn't always get to do what they want with the characters.
I imagine if you knew some of the background stories to some of the great comicbook creators, you'd be calling them a 'wuss', when all they are doing is their best in an impossible situation.
Raimi did the best thing, he took it on and adapted it the best he could, he was the best man for the job, he knew and had the trust of all the returning actors, and knew how to put a SM movie together. To throw all that away and put the movie into someone else's hands would have been a disservice to the actors and the fans. He did the best with the situation he was given.
I imagine you think that if he had flung a JJJ type tandrum in the office or offered to take in Avi Arad on in rock, paper, scissors and won, he would have gotten his own way. But real life is not like the comicbooks.

 

[SpideyTheBest]

You know I remember reading that they were gonna have an air battle between Harry and Vulture. Oh how awesome that could have been. **** you Arad!

All the ideas they had for The Vulture, oh god this is really going to be hard to get over.

DAMN YOU AVI ARAD!

 

[VenomVsSpidey]

I doubt Sam Raimi is going to cry himself to sleep tonight over my comments on a freakin message board.

And personally, I think Spider Man 3 was a disservice to fans. Sorry, its lazy, sloppy and at times, pretty insulting. It's a bad movie. It ruins the trilogy.stop taking a spiderman 3 movie message board so seriously.

1) he's not going to cry himself to sleep..those comments you make insulting raimi just makes you sound all the more immature.
2) opinion
3) never. as long as people are here to bash it, i'm here to defend it. and if you want this to be done, I suggest you take your own advice.

 

[drmick]

I think that the 3 movies all have their pros and cons, and that the 3rd is on a par with teh first two for that reason, and I'm not an idiot either.

Ok, I'm going to elaborate on my original post. What I meant was, that that anybody who posts on SHH that SM3 is the best film of the trilogy so far is an idiot.

And let's not excuse my post with niceties. When I say idiot, I mean, I mean severely intellectually impaired. Such people should not be allowed to have children, best remove those idiot genes from the gene pool while we have the chance.

Now you might this post just to be a tad inflammatory. However I will draw you attention to the words in bold. Because there are two exceptions to my statement:

1. You actually prefer SM3. When it comes to watching a Spidey film, it is more likely you will chose the SM3 DVD. This does not mean you think SM3 is the better film, you agree that it is in fact the worst, but for various personal reasons (Venom fan?) you prefer SM3. Sorta like acknowledging that Transformers were the better toys, but that you prefer GoBots as they were your first and favourite toys as kid.

2. You actually do believe SM3 is the better film. However you are aware that the majority of people hate it, and as such you will NEVER admit, and most definitely NEVER POST, that you believe SM3 is the best. Your belief will be a guilty secret that is only known to you.

People who fall under category 1 are not idiots. They are allowed to have children. People who fall under category 2 are not idiots either, as they have insight into how their beliefs will be perceived by others. However, they probably shouldn't have kids because there's a good chance the kids will be idiots who post online that SM3 is the better film!

SM3 was a disaster of a film. Critically panned by most quarters, all of whom rated the first two highly. If you genuinely believe that SM3 was the best, you are an idiot. If you then continue to insist, to argue the fact, then you are a delusional idiot.

 

[VenomVsSpidey]

Ok, I'm going to elaborate on my original post. What I meant was, that that anybody who posts on SHH that SM3 is the best film of the trilogy so far is an idiot.

And let's not excuse my post with niceties. When I say idiot, I mean, I mean severely intellectually impaired. Such people should not be allowed to have children, best remove those idiot genes from the gene pool while we have the chance.

Now you might this post just to be a tad inflammatory. However I will draw you attention to the words in bold. Because there are two exceptions to my statement:

1. You actually prefer SM3. When it comes to watching a Spidey film, it is more likely you will chose the SM3 DVD. This does not mean you think SM3 is the better film, you agree that it is in fact the worst, but for various personal reasons (Venom fan?) you prefer SM3. Sorta like acknowledging that Transformers were the better toys, but that you prefer GoBots as they were your first and favourite toys as kid.

2. You actually do believe SM3 is the better film. However you are aware that the majority of people hate it, and as such you will NEVER admit, and most definitely NEVER POST, that you believe SM3 is the best. Your belief will be a guilty secret that is only known to you.

People who fall under category 1 are not idiots. They are allowed to have children. People who fall under category 2 are not idiots either, as they have insight into how their beliefs will be perceived by others. However, they probably shouldn't have kids because there's a good chance the kids will be idiots who post online that SM3 is the better film!

SM3 was a disaster of a film. Critically panned by most quarters, all of whom rated the first two highly. If you genuinely believe that SM3 was the best, you are an idiot. If you then continue to insist, to argue the fact, then you are a delusional idiot.

wow...lemme just argue against this :

1) just because YOU hate it, doesne't mean everyone else does
2) I fail to see, how I am an Idiot because of my personal taste.
3) get your facts straight. SM3 was not CRITICALLY panned. Some critics hated it, some liked it, and some loved it.
4) sm3 IS the better film, ans I am NOT afraid to post or admit it.


/discussion.

 

[david icke]

Ok, I'm going to elaborate on my original post. What I meant was, that that anybody who posts on SHH that SM3 is the best film of the trilogy so far is an idiot.

I'm not sure why you quoted my post and then attempted to clarify your opinion. From my post you should have gathered that , since I feel the 3rd movie is on a par with the first two, I can understand why someone might prefer the 3rd.

No matter how much you want to dress it up, your opinion that folk are idiots because you cannot fathom why they would possibly prefer the 3rd, seems incredibly blinkered to me. And your latest post to be a little attention seeking and of the baiting variety.

I mean, it would be like myself saying you were an idiot for not being able to imagine why some folk might prefer it. But, I don't think you're an idiot for not being able to get your head around that. Maybe just a little arrogant in your opinion, but, we've all been there at some point in our rants and raves on message boards, although there seem to be a couple of good folk who carry themselves with decorum at all times. I can't get my head round that, they must be idiots.

gridlocked: I typed a reply to you the other day but lost it when i got logged out. But, suffice to say, i wasn't taking it personally, you felt like slagging Raimi off, i felt like defedning him , simple as that. And if you read interviews etc you can basically put together what happened, you don't need to be a 'hollywood insider' to do that.

 

[gridlockd]

1) he's not going to cry himself to sleep..those comments you make insulting raimi just makes you sound all the more immature.
2) opinion
3) never. as long as people are here to bash it, i'm here to defend it. and if you want this to be done, I suggest you take your own advice.

Hence the words; "Personally, I think..."

 

[Dragon]

Venom wasn't Spidey 3's problem. Every bad scene sprouted from it being "All about a girl". The Peter/MJ relationship is what screwed this film. That and Sandman merely be a special effect and not a character. In fact, his only real character moment was a special effect.

 

[david icke]

Venom wasn't Spidey 3's problem. Every bad scene sprouted from it being "All about a girl". The Peter/MJ relationship is what screwed this film.

I quite liked seeing them act like normal people in a relationship, working through being selfish etc.
The scene in the restaurant was one of the most interesting scenes between them, and presented a type of betrayl accusation that could only belong to the superhero genre. Which is what needs to happen in these types of movies to distinguish them if they are to be taken seriously as a genre of their own.
If anything I would level that type of critisicm at the movie series as a whole.
PP has many problems , girlfriends being one of them, but since Spidey was married to MJ in the comics, the movie series went with the mantra that she was who he was destined to be with. So there is no drama there with whether they'll break up and PP will go off with someone else eventually. Or whether they would even get it together in the first place.

Gwen Stacey has now been introduced, but does anyone think they'll pair PP off with her in the new movie? I would like it if they did, just for a change, but they probably won't as KD is the main lead and probably wouldn't return if she wasn't.
Same with the Black Cat, Debra Whitman, Betty Brant, or any of his gf's that might show up in the movies eventually.

edit: which is highly ironic given what has now happened in the comics.

 

[GoldGoblin]

What I don't understand is how Raimi didn't give Harry a Goblin costume.He should of given Harry an updated Goblin suit that is either GG2 or the Hobgoblin.Raimi also could of gave us an updated glider that is sleeker and doesn't look like a snowboard.

If Raimi was forced to use Venom then Raimi should of not used Sandman.What Raimi should of done was use the Scorpion who later in the movie turns into Venom.

What Raimi should of done was have Harry in a Goblin costume fight Peter and in yhe aftermath of the fight instead of Harry having amnesia,have Harry become paralyzed from the neck down,that way Harry is still pissed at Peter,but he isn't capable of fighting Peter.

So Harry goes to plan B,he creates a super villain to kill spidey.Have Harry create the Scorpion by combining Goblin and Doc Ock tech to do it.

Have the Scorpion ask how does he find spidey,Harry tells him to commit a crime.So the Scorpion breaks into a museum and tries to steal an artifact.

The alarm goes off and spidey shows up.During the fight they break a display case showing a meteor.When the display case breaks,the meteor breaks open as well.

We see the symbiote crawls out of it and it attaches to the Scorpion and creates Venom.Venom and spidey fight in the museum until the cops show up and shoots at Venom.

Then Venom takes off and spidey follows where the fight takes place on the streets as the two web-sling through the city.

Then have the fight take place on an airplane that is just flying out of NY where the Scorpion looses the symbiote when he crawls next to the jet engines and the loud sound just makes the symbiote crawl off.

The symbiote crawls onto spidey now,and the black spidey defeats the Scorpion and then Black spidey is mad at Harry for sending a villain to kill him,so black spidey heads to Harry's to kill him.

But Harry has been slowly healing through out the movie and is now all healed when black spidey shows up.A alarm goes off when Harry is in his Goblin lair.When Harry looks at the monitor,Harry sees black spidey is the intruder.

Harry suits up in his Goblin gear as black spidey is looking for him.Then Harry exits the Goblin lair and black spidey fights the Goblin until black spidey thinks that he killed Harry.

Peter realizes that the symbiote has made him a killer,so he goes to the church to take it off.And we see Venom show up with a new host,Eddie Brock for a later movie.

 

[Dragon]

I quite liked seeing them act like normal people in a relationship, working through being selfish etc.
The scene in the restaurant was one of the most interesting scenes between them, and presented a type of betrayl accusation that could only belong to the superhero genre. Which is what needs to happen in these types of movies to distinguish them if they are to be taken seriously as a genre of their own.
If anything I would level that type of critisicm at the movie series as a whole.
PP has many problems , girlfriends being one of them, but since Spidey was married to MJ in the comics, the movie series went with the mantra that she was who he was destined to be with. So there is no drama there with whether they'll break up and PP will go off with someone else eventually. Or whether they would even get it together in the first place.

Really? I didn't like the restaurant scene at all. But it was indicative of the entire relationship. Which I think is one of the worst ever in a film series.

The funny thing is that every problem with the relationship is made very clear in the dialogue. First, in Spidey 1 Peter says she's "The woman I loved even before I liked girls". So this is not a relationship born of mature love, but childhood infatuation. And the relationship is indeed very childish. I mean, what reason does Peter have for loving her? And note Peter's silly decision at the end of Spidey 1. It became a running joke for the franchise. He won't date her because of fear for her safety, yet she always winds up a hostage anyway..

But the most flawed part of the relationship is MJ herself. She's a terribly written character. She's selfish and self-centered. She seems to only "love" Peter because he's her fan. Men like Harry, John Jr., hell, even Flash had lives of their own and didn't need to dote on her. "I want to spend my life singing on stage, with you in the front row" Again, very telling words. He's her cheering section. Her personal fanclub. She doesn't even say she wants to sing to him- just that she wants him watching her. And when Peter finally receives some appreciation for being Spider-Man, how does she react? She's angry. Jealous. After being fired and exiting the theater, she's more than happy to be on the receiving end of applause- until she realizes they aren't for her. They're for Peter. Is she happy for him, finally being recognized for risking his life? Nope. Is that love? MJ expects Peter to support her. Listen to her. Empathize with her "Don't give me the horse thing". But when Peter is in need of ubderstanding, what does she do? Berates him. Insults him. When Harry threatens her and Peter, even though she's seen Peter come through everytime it counted, does she believe in him? Does she have the courage to spit in Harry's face and say Peter will kick your ass? Nope. And she had to know that her words in the park would've hurt Peter far worse than ANYTHING Harry could do to him. But she feels justified in griping about a kiss during a performance. She's an actress. She should know the difference. "Our kiss" she says- but she certainly shared "our kiss" with John. And that's her other thing. When she has problems with a guy, she always runs to another guy. And in the end, did she finally apologize to Peter for what she'd done wrong? Nope. A terrible character and a terrible relationship.

Gwen Stacey has now been introduced, but does anyone think they'll pair PP off with her in the new movie? I would like it if they did, just for a change, but they probably won't as KD is the main lead and probably wouldn't return if she wasn't.
Same with the Black Cat, Debra Whitman, Betty Brant, or any of his gf's that might show up in the movies eventually.

edit: which is highly ironic given what has now happened in the comics.

While Gwen is certainly a better character (Spidey saves her, she throws him a parade). But I guess Sam has no interest in presenting Peter in a mature, adult relationship. The REAL IRONY is that Peter was NEVER presented this way in the source material. He wasn't even particularly shy. Even in AF#15 he asks girls out- they just shoot him down.

 

[The Joker]

Well said, Dragon. Well said

I think MJ was definitely at her worst in SM-3. Strong candidate for the worst on screen love interest ever in a superhero flick.

 

[VenomVsSpidey]

Well said, Dragon. Well said

I think MJ was definitely at her worst in SM-3. Strong candidate for the worst on screen love interest ever in a superhero flick.

much like batgirl was anything better for robin

 

[The Joker]

much like batgirl was anything better for robin

Huh? Batgirl was never Robin's love interest in the movies.

 

[VenomVsSpidey]

Huh? Batgirl was never Robin's love interest in the movies.

wasn't it setup that way in B&R? I don't watch that unless im in teh mood for laughs.btw : i'm not disagreeing with you, I love SM3, but MJ was a total biatch in this one, though I do love the way raimi has their relationships set up. but yeah, wasn't she and robin kinda like having a thing together? I know him and bats were fighting for IVY and whatnot, but didn't robin have a thing for Barbra?

 

[The Joker]

wasn't it setup that way in B&R? I don't watch that unless im in teh mood for laughs.btw : i'm not disagreeing with you, I love SM3, but MJ was a total biatch in this one, though I do love the way raimi has their relationships set up. but yeah, wasn't she and robin kinda like having a thing together? I know him and bats were fighting for IVY and whatnot, but didn't robin have a thing for Barbra?

No man, they never had any kind of romantic thing in B&R. Dick thought she was hot when he first met her, but that's as far as it went. He never tried to pursue her in any way, and vice versa.

 

[VenomVsSpidey]

No man, they never had any kind of romantic thing in B&R. Dick thought she was hot when he first met her, but that's as far as it went. He never tried to pursue her in any way, and vice versa.

aah. thanks for the correction

 

[david icke]

Really? I didn't like the restaurant scene at all. But it was indicative of the entire relationship. Which I think is one of the worst ever in a film series.

So, does that mean you think it was 'the worst' because it was unrealisticly written, or because you personally wouldn't want to be friends with those characters in real life?

The funny thing is that every problem with the relationship is made very clear in the dialogue. First, in Spidey 1 Peter says she's "The woman I loved even before I liked girls". So this is not a relationship born of mature love, but childhood infatuation. And the relationship is indeed very childish. I mean, what reason does Peter have for loving her?

Yeah, the old love at 1st sight movie cliche. As i said earlier they should have avoided all that she was pre-destined crap.

And note Peter's silly decision at the end of Spidey 1. It became a running joke for the franchise. He won't date her because of fear for her safety, yet she always winds up a hostage anyway..

How is that a silly decison? He's trying to take less of a chance of something bad happening to her. He doesn't know that it's going to happen anyway.
It may have become a running joke to some, but that doesn't make the character decision 'silly'.

But the most flawed part of the relationship is MJ herself. She's a terribly written character. She's selfish and self-centered.

Exactly how she was originally in the comics.

She seems to only "love" Peter because he's her fan. Men like Harry, John Jr., hell, even Flash had lives of their own and didn't need to dote on her. "I want to spend my life singing on stage, with you in the front row" Again, very telling words. He's her cheering section. Her personal fanclub. She doesn't even say she wants to sing to him- just that she wants him watching her. And when Peter finally receives some appreciation for being Spider-Man, how does she react? She's angry. Jealous. After being fired and exiting the theater, she's more than happy to be on the receiving end of applause- until she realizes they aren't for her. They're for Peter. Is she happy for him, finally being recognized for risking his life? Nope. Is that love? MJ expects Peter to support her. Listen to her. Empathize with her "Don't give me the horse thing". But when Peter is in need of ubderstanding, what does she do? Berates him. Insults him.

Who says she isn't happy for him getting recognition? The SM kudos has probably been going on for a long time by then, and she's getting sick at this stage of everything being turned around to his being Spider-man, I thought that was obvious.
She's been his cheering section for the longest time too.

to be continued...ive already lost 3 attempots at this post from being logged out

edit: Honestly not sure what scene you are talking about where Peter needs support but she insults and berates him. When the killer of Ben is revealed to be on the loose, she is up at his flat in a shot to check on him, it's Pete who doesn't listen to her and pushes her away.

And as for the wishing Pete was her audience forever thing. They are both guilty of indulging in the attention they crave. Pete bangs on about being a role model, MJ hits out with that statement you quoted.
but, ultimately they both dote on each other, they are each other's biggest fans.

When Harry threatens her and Peter, even though she's seen Peter come through everytime it counted, does she believe in him? Does she have the courage to spit in Harry's face and say Peter will kick your ass? Nope. And she had to know that her words in the park would've hurt Peter far worse than ANYTHING Harry could do to him.

she's put in a very difficult sutuation there. Pete has kept her ignorant of that situation because he doesnt want her to worry and thinks he can take care of it without her knowing.
so, suddenly she's having to contend with not only a supervillan who knows Pete's secret Id, but one of her old friends.
she's scared Harry will just sneak out of nowhere and kill Pete as he knows his ID. She doesn't know what the hell to do.

But she feels justified in griping about a kiss during a performance. She's an actress. She should know the difference. "Our kiss" she says- but she certainly shared "our kiss" with John. And that's her other thing. When she has problems with a guy, she always runs to another guy. And in the end, did she finally apologize to Peter for what she'd done wrong? Nope. A terrible character and a terrible relationship.

She only brings up the kiss after it becomes apparent that Pete kissed a girl who he may have feelings for. And it seems her instinct to feel betrayed when she witnessed it, might in fact have been justified, I'd say it was.
so she has a stolen kiss of her own later on, not planned. She feels let down by Pete, he has not been supporting her.
and i think she's right abotu that too.
She immediately goes up to his flat to support him when the real killer of Ben is revealed.

They both have their fair share of giving support and being selfish.

While Gwen is certainly a better character (Spidey saves her, she throws him a parade).

You can't compare Gwen to MJ on that level at all. Gwen doesn'y have to cope with normal relationship stuff.
MJ acting that way all the time would be like a cop's wife giving im a pass every time he doesn't listen to her because he is out there saving lives.

But I guess Sam has no interest in presenting Peter in a mature, adult relationship.

They were in a relationship that was reallistic, given the situation.
You seem to have missed some points about it and put all the blame at MJ's door, completely ignoring Pete's selfishness playing a part.

The REAL IRONY is that Peter was NEVER presented this way in the source material. He wasn't even particularly shy. Even in AF#15 he asks girls out- they just shoot him down.

Fair enough, but it's really not so bad dramatically.
His relationships have to have some turbulence coming from somewhere, otherwise he doesn't get miserable, and with all the best Spidey comics, he's alwasy disatisfied with his personal life.
The marriage kind of brought that part of the relationship stuff to an end. i wouldn't have wnated PP and Mj to immediately fell into a mature relationship rightaway for that reason.
and it's not as badly written as you think, whether that's becaue you think it wasn't realistic, or because you didn't personally take to the character. She's really not that bad.

 

[LightningFlash]

So we're here to agree that Spider-Man 3 sucked?

 

[Venom'sDad]

I think MJ was definitely at her worst in SM-3. Strong candidate for the worst on screen love interest ever in a superhero flick.

I agree; but who's fault is that..... Sam & Co.

 

[Dragon]

So, does that mean you think it was 'the worst' because it was unrealisticly written, or because you personally wouldn't want to be friends with those characters in real life?

Both. I didn't like the writing of the scene. Not necessarily due to realism, but the dialogue wasn't very good, that it was a poor choice of problem for Peter and MJ. Of course they need to struggle in their relationship. But there are other issues I think these two should be focused on. And yeah, they should be likeable. We should care about their problems and want to follow them to the resolution. And it's absolutely possible to have both.

Yeah, the old love at 1st sight movie cliche. As i said earlier they should have avoided all that she was pre-destined crap.

Very true. At their best, the comics focused on how do these people come together as people. Spider-man was an issue, but not the only one.

How is that a silly decison? He's trying to take less of a chance of something bad happening to her. He doesn't know that it's going to happen anyway.
It may have become a running joke to some, but that doesn't make the character decision 'silly'.

It was a silly decision. Should he have also cut off Aunt May, Harry, anyone he knew to "protect" them? His enemies could have learned of their importance to him as well. But for a superhero, anyone on the street can be held as a hostage. They have to care about their lives as well. And the silliness is underlined in Spidey 2 when she ends up a hostage again, despite his not dating her. In 3 she's a hostage again, and they've broken up. Danger is everywhere. MJ could get hit by a falling safe. It's ridiculous to deny yourself love because of something that might happen. And in the comics, most of the time Spidey's enemies don't learn his ID. In the movies, they always do.

Exactly how she was originally in the comics.

She really wasn't. She was full of herself. And we know that was a defense mechanism. But when she and Peter got together, that was gone. That's WHY they were able to get together. Peter didn't accept her self-centeredness. In the movie, it's almost written as being okay. That Peter should accept her issues (She never realizes what she's doing wrong or tries to change). But really, movie MJ isn't like the comic version (It'd been far better if she were) so the comparision doesn't track.

Who says she isn't happy for him getting recognition? The SM kudos has probably been going on for a long time by then, and she's getting sick at this stage of everything being turned around to his being Spider-man, I thought that was obvious.
She's been his cheering section for the longest time too.

When he saves her life.

But her every expression is one of displeasure at Spidey being appreciated. Again the scene outside the theater. At the parade, she isn't sharing in the moment with Peter, she walks off to talk to Harry. Even her compliment at the parade is clearly made begrudingly. It's not sincere.

And Peter has been her cheering section for just as long. Longer, really. He doesn't get sick of it, however.

to be continued...ive already lost 3 attempots at this post from being logged out

edit: Honestly not sure what scene you are talking about where Peter needs support but she insults and berates him. When the killer of Ben is revealed to be on the loose, she is up at his flat in a shot to check on him, it's Pete who doesn't listen to her and pushes her away.

That's the scene I'm referring to. "Don't do anything stupid". She's not loving and supportive. She's bitter and judgmental. She blames him for killing Carridine, even though as Peter repeats, it was self-defense. So yeah, Peter pushes her away. Who wouldn't? But as with the ending of Spidey #122, when he basically rips her apart, she should've stayed. She should've done whatever it took to calm him. To show him she's there for him. That's love.

And as for the wishing Pete was her audience forever thing. They are both guilty of indulging in the attention they crave. Pete bangs on about being a role model, MJ hits out with that statement you quoted.
but, ultimately they both dote on each other, they are each other's biggest fans.

When is she doting on him? When has she ever doted on him? She only compliments the fact that he supports her. "The one man who makes me believe I'm more than I ever thought I could be" Their relationship- or at least her love- is dependent on his support of her. Her first acknowledgement of him is in the talk in the backyard when he- as usual, comlpliments her. She's never praised him for "just being him". And if Peter fails her- "You're not there for me"- "You're just an empty seat"- she dumps him. Even though She "kind of always knew" he was Spidey- his life, his pain- doesn't matter in the face of his supporting her.

she's put in a very difficult sutuation there. Pete has kept her ignorant of that situation because he doesnt want her to worry and thinks he can take care of it without her knowing.
so, suddenly she's having to contend with not only a supervillan who knows Pete's secret Id, but one of her old friends.
she's scared Harry will just sneak out of nowhere and kill Pete as he knows his ID. She doesn't know what the hell to do.

She knows Peter. She's seen him overcome terrible, impossible odds before. Harry is just a creep on a flying board. She should have believed in Peter. Trusted him. And in the park, Harry couldn't sneak up on him. She could have warned Peter. She could've tried to risk her life protect him. She could've said to Harry "F- you. Peter is the man I love. And hell, if we have to go down, we go down together." That, again, is love. And BTW- Gwen (comics) would've done that.

She only brings up the kiss after it becomes apparent that Pete kissed a girl who he may have feelings for. And it seems her instinct to feel betrayed when she witnessed it, might in fact have been justified, I'd say it was.

Where was it apparent that Peter had feelings for Gwen? He looked at her with as much interest as the male waiter across the room. He was there spending his time, his money, his love on MJ.

so she has a stolen kiss of her own later on, not planned. She feels let down by Pete, he has not been supporting her.
and i think she's right abotu that too.

Her kiss was emotional. A betrayal. Peter's was a performance. Again, being an actress she knows the difference. Just to look at how Peter was behaving at the parade, she should've known he was in his Spidey-persona (But then, she wasn't paying attention, or supporting him). And he was absolutely supporting her. He went to her show- was breathing her air. You know he would've always been doing this. Praised her up the wazoo- spent time with her. She- SHE CHOSE not to tell him about being fired. Even during the "Don't give me the horse thing"- scene he was ready to listen to her. But- Oh my- Someone's life needed to be saved. And she actually had to think about letting him go save someone versus listen to her whine about her stage-career. She could've called him afterward. They could've talked at dinner- but she- SHE shut him out and walkws away- "Don't follow me". But this is what she always does in her relationships.

She immediately goes up to his flat to support him when the real killer of Ben is revealed.

She didn't support him. She criticized him. Imagine her reaction if Peter told her not to be so "stupid" about a review.

They both have their fair share of giving support and being selfish.

Not their fair share. Peter: You were great. MJ: Don't do anything stupid. When does MJ tell him he's great?

You can't compare Gwen to MJ on that level at all. Gwen doesn'y have to cope with normal relationship stuff.

Yeah, Gwen would probably be even more elaborate in her support if they were in a relationship.

MJ acting that way all the time would be like a cop's wife giving im a pass every time he doesn't listen to her because he is out there saving lives.

Saving lives vs. acting career. Which one is more important?

They were in a relationship that was reallistic, given the situation.
You seem to have missed some points about it and put all the blame at MJ's door, completely ignoring Pete's selfishness playing a part.

What selfishness was that? Supporting her career? Telling her constantly that he loves her? Spending whatever time and money he had on her? "Can you afford this?" Trying to encourage her not to let critics get her down? Wanting to marry her? What did I miss?

Fair enough, but it's really not so bad dramatically.
His relationships have to have some turbulence coming from somewhere, otherwise he doesn't get miserable, and with all the best Spidey comics, he's alwasy disatisfied with his personal life.

There are more ways for there to be struggles in their lives than her career. She could have issues about how she can fit into Spider-Man's life and how Spider-Man can fit into hers. How she can deal with his constantly risking his life. Yeah- how she herself is in danger by proximity to him. How trivial her career seems compared to his.

The marriage kind of brought that part of the relationship stuff to an end. i wouldn't have wnated PP and Mj to immediately fell into a mature relationship rightaway for that reason.
and it's not as badly written as you think, whether that's becaue you think it wasn't realistic, or because you didn't personally take to the character. She's really not that bad.

It's about weights and measures.

Stepping off topic slightly- when the debate is brought up about who the better girlfriend was, Gwen vs. MJ, I always pick Gwen. Why? Because in giving a superhero a relationship, that relationship has to be balanced against his life as a superhero. At least for it to remain interesting. Why has MJ constantly been jettisoned in the comics? Why was Gwen killed? The writers had nothing interesting to say about the relationships. For most comic writers, the only drama they can figure is the chase aspect. Once they're together, what else do you have? Jealousy. Peter isn't around enough. She's a hostage. Now, with MJ, there isn't much more than that. With Gwen there was so much missed potential.
Her background brought drama that would balance her life with a superhero. Her dad was a retired cop, killed in action. He'd have his own enemies and issues that would come to haunt Gwen and Peter. We never knew what happened to her mother. Potential for drama there. She might not be dead. Hell, she could be a crime boss. Gwen would reasonably have become a cop. Action and adventure in her own life, separate from, but affecting Peter. Plus you have all the jealousy, pregnancy and other issues to work with. My point is, a superhero girlfirned needs to have superhero-level issues. MJ doesn't.

 

[Dragon]

So we're here to agree that Spider-Man 3 sucked?

Nope. It had problems but was still an entertaining movie.

 

[david icke]

Both. I didn't like the writing of the scene. Not necessarily due to realism, but the dialogue wasn't very good, that it was a poor choice of problem for Peter and MJ. Of course they need to struggle in their relationship. But there are other issues I think these two should be focused on. And yeah, they should be likeable. We should care about their problems and want to follow them to the resolution. And it's absolutely possible to have both.

Ok, fair enough, i didn't mind the dialouge.

It was a silly decision. Should he have also cut off Aunt May, Harry, anyone he knew to "protect" them? His enemies could have learned of their importance to him as well. But for a superhero, anyone on the street can be held as a hostage. They have to care about their lives as well. And the silliness is underlined in Spidey 2 when she ends up a hostage again, despite his not dating her. In 3 she's a hostage again, and they've broken up. Danger is everywhere. MJ could get hit by a falling safe. It's ridiculous to deny yourself love because of something that might happen. And in the comics, most of the time Spidey's enemies don't learn his ID. In the movies, they always do.

Ok, but he's just starting out, he's trying to do the best he can, and her getting taken hostage was shocking to him. Aunt May is joined to him through blood, he can't do anything about that, but he doesn't feel ggod about ringing anyone else into his orbit just in case, after that experience with Osborne.

She really wasn't. She was full of herself. And we know that was a defense mechanism. But when she and Peter got together, that was gone. That's WHY they were able to get together. Peter didn't accept her self-centeredness. In the movie, it's almost written as being okay. That Peter should accept her issues (She never realizes what she's doing wrong or tries to change). But really, movie MJ isn't like the comic version (It'd been far better if she were) so the comparision doesn't track.

Yeah, you are right, I was thinking more of what she was like before she and PP started going out.
She would flirt with Pete when she was going out with Harry, she had her mind on the stardom and having fun at the expense of everything else.

When he saves her life.

But her every expression is one of displeasure at Spidey being appreciated. Again the scene outside the theater. At the parade, she isn't sharing in the moment with Peter, she walks off to talk to Harry. Even her compliment at the parade is clearly made begrudingly. It's not sincere.

And Peter has been her cheering section for just as long. Longer, really. He doesn't get sick of it, however.

Yeah, but again i would argue she's maybe just at the point where SM is totally taking up every aspect of their lives and she's getting a little blase or tired of it.
When she wants to talk about the bad reviews and how she's feeling, he just immediately plouges into a speech about being spider-man, relating it to that.

That's the scene I'm referring to. "Don't do anything stupid". She's not loving and supportive. She's bitter and judgmental. She blames him for killing Carridine, even though as Peter repeats, it was self-defense. So yeah, Peter pushes her away. Who wouldn't? But as with the ending of Spidey #122, when he basically rips her apart, she should've stayed. She should've done whatever it took to calm him. To show him she's there for him. That's love.

But she gets the sense he is going to do something stupid, and he is acting stupid and selfish as he is set on vengeance. He ignores that poilce report about an old guy collapsed in the street.
When she says 'like with that other guy..', she's just meaning that the guy died, she doesn't necesarily mean to imply Pete murdered him imo, she just means that you don't want this new guy to end up dead if you go lashing out at him.

Yeah, and ok, she should've stayed to make sure he didn't do anything stupid if she felt that way. That is true.

When is she doting on him? When has she ever doted on him? She only compliments the fact that he supports her. "The one man who makes me believe I'm more than I ever thought I could be" Their relationship- or at least her love- is dependent on his support of her. Her first acknowledgement of him is in the talk in the backyard when he- as usual, comlpliments her. She's never praised him for "just being him". And if Peter fails her- "You're not there for me"- "You're just an empty seat"- she dumps him. Even though She "kind of always knew" he was Spidey- his life, his pain- doesn't matter in the face of his supporting her.

Ok, it hasn't been shown in the flicks, but i imagine from the way she acted at the end of SM2 they must've had some good times where she's doted on him. it's just that SM3 opens with her big night, and so she's basking a bit.
And i wouldn't count any of that stuff from before she knew he was SM.

to be continued..

She knows Peter. She's seen him overcome terrible, impossible odds before. Harry is just a creep on a flying board. She should have believed in Peter. Trusted him. And in the park, Harry couldn't sneak up on him. She could have warned Peter. She could've tried to risk her life protect him. She could've said to Harry "F- you. Peter is the man I love. And hell, if we have to go down, we go down together." That, again, is love. And BTW- Gwen (comics) would've done that.



Where was it apparent that Peter had feelings for Gwen? He looked at her with as much interest as the male waiter across the room. He was there spending his time, his money, his love on MJ.



Her kiss was emotional. A betrayal. Peter's was a performance. Again, being an actress she knows the difference. Just to look at how Peter was behaving at the parade, she should've known he was in his Spidey-persona (But then, she wasn't paying attention, or supporting him). And he was absolutely supporting her. He went to her show- was breathing her air. You know he would've always been doing this. Praised her up the wazoo- spent time with her. She- SHE CHOSE not to tell him about being fired. Even during the "Don't give me the horse thing"- scene he was ready to listen to her. But- Oh my- Someone's life needed to be saved. And she actually had to think about letting him go save someone versus listen to her whine about her stage-career. She could've called him afterward. They could've talked at dinner- but she- SHE shut him out and walkws away- "Don't follow me". But this is what she always does in her relationships.



She didn't support him. She criticized him. Imagine her reaction if Peter told her not to be so "stupid" about a review.



Not their fair share. Peter: You were great. MJ: Don't do anything stupid. When does MJ tell him he's great?



Yeah, Gwen would probably be even more elaborate in her support if they were in a relationship.



Saving lives vs. acting career. Which one is more important?



What selfishness was that? Supporting her career? Telling her constantly that he loves her? Spending whatever time and money he had on her? "Can you afford this?" Trying to encourage her not to let critics get her down? Wanting to marry her? What did I miss?



There are more ways for there to be struggles in their lives than her career. She could have issues about how she can fit into Spider-Man's life and how Spider-Man can fit into hers. How she can deal with his constantly risking his life. Yeah- how she herself is in danger by proximity to him. How trivial her career seems compared to his.



It's about weights and measures.

Stepping off topic slightly- when the debate is brought up about who the better girlfriend was, Gwen vs. MJ, I always pick Gwen. Why? Because in giving a superhero a relationship, that relationship has to be balanced against his life as a superhero. At least for it to remain interesting. Why has MJ constantly been jettisoned in the comics? Why was Gwen killed? The writers had nothing interesting to say about the relationships. For most comic writers, the only drama they can figure is the chase aspect. Once they're together, what else do you have? Jealousy. Peter isn't around enough. She's a hostage. Now, with MJ, there isn't much more than that. With Gwen there was so much missed potential.
Her background brought drama that would balance her life with a superhero. Her dad was a retired cop, killed in action. He'd have his own enemies and issues that would come to haunt Gwen and Peter. We never knew what happened to her mother. Potential for drama there. She might not be dead. Hell, she could be a crime boss. Gwen would reasonably have become a cop. Action and adventure in her own life, separate from, but affecting Peter. Plus you have all the jealousy, pregnancy and other issues to work with. My point is, a superhero girlfirned needs to have superhero-level issues. MJ doesn't.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

MJ was a crap character in SM2 just as much as SM3.

 

[LightningFlash]

Nope. It had problems but was still an entertaining movie.

I don't see the entertainment quality in that movie as others have seen.

Am I watching a different film or what?