The Dark Knight Why Nolan Got Two Face Right...

[FhFgJg]

I agree with you alot, StorminNorman.

I said in another thread that I think the key to this transition is not just the acid to the face, but (if Nolan does this) Rachel's death.

If all of this is so, Bruce Wayne and Harvey Dent are going to have a lot of things in common. Bruce becomes Batman through his losses. Dent becomes Two-Face through his. But now both have different ideas on how to take on criminals. Two-Face can't deal with letting the justice system of Gotham work them through, instead, making his own law. While Batman is the one trying to balance his rules with Gotham's laws... and not kill anyone in the process.

When Dent becomes Two-Face, he'll probably become vengeful self-assassine, taking down mob bosses left to right. The road Bruce avoided in Batman Begins... but also the road that will come to rehaunt him in The Dark Knight as well.

I think you are right here. I've always found Bruce and Harvey to be so similiar. i think the only real difference is Bruce had Alfred to guide him throughout hardships and anger. Harvey has had nobody but himself. Bruce may not have been much different than Harvey had he not had the direction and guidance of someone like Alfred.

 

[Shoemeister]

The biggest spoiler to come out of all of this:

There's an iPhone in TDK.





That's some earth-shattering s**t right there.

 

[StorminNorman]

I think you are right here. I've always found Bruce and Harvey to be so similiar. i think the only real difference is Bruce had Alfred to guide him throughout hardships and anger. Harvey has had nobody but himself. Bruce may not have been much different than Harvey had he not had the direction and guidance of someone like Alfred.

I dont necessarily agree since when Harvey became Two-Face he still had a loving wife (and/or girlfriend if you like the Timm/Dini disgrace).

 

[Doc Samson]

First off, great post Norman, one of the better ones I've read in awhile. That being said, I kinda liked Big Bad Harv in TAS, but I didn't feel it would be good for this film. I do, however, think Harvey having some kind of psychological, or split personality disorder would've fallen right in line with Nolans "realism" shtick. Having these things festering long before Harvey gets disfigured makes it much more believable and tangible in this setting. Now I'm not for the whole mob scenario, I think Harvey should be an upstanding guy, but a guy with some deep rooted issues nonetheless. Regardless I have total faith in Nolan, and can't wait to see this transformation. As with the Joker, I feel his realistic approach actually brings these characters closer to their CB roots rather than farther. I've said it as soon as the cast was announced and the title was given, and I'll say it again, TDK has the potential...the chance...to be the best film of its kind ever made. And I really think Nolan and Co. have the perfect story in place to achieve just that.....

 

[sclabguy]

The biggest spoiler to come out of all of this:

There's an iPhone in TDK.





That's some earth-shattering s**t right there.

GOD DAMMIT u just had to ruin the whole damn movie didn't you
t:

 

[Watson]

The biggest spoiler to come out of all of this:

There's an iPhone in TDK.





That's some earth-shattering s**t right there.

Oh noez product placement!!!

 

[Mr. Superhero]

If he goes from "good" to "evil", that will just be two shallow a portrayal of the character in this day and age. He needs to have a dark side, an aspect of him that is "two-faced", something he struggles against, that comes out when he becomes Two-Face.

Well, yeah -- I think that goes without saying. TLH handled this aspect perfectly, especially in the scene where Harvey tries to kick the living crap out of the Joker in his living room. That's the moment when we were introduced to Harvey's "ugly side".

It will be interesting to see how Nolan presents Harvey's dark side in TDK, though.

 

[Nightwing1977]

The biggest spoiler to come out of all of this:

There's an iPhone in TDK.





That's some earth-shattering s**t right there.

Now you really has to spoil it.

But seriously, great thread you started, StorminNorman. I was expecting Nolan to get Two-Face done right than Schmucker anyway. Tee hee.

 

[Anita18]

The Maroni case should be incredibly frustrating. It should put incredible stress to him. He should be willing to put himself through hell so that Maroni is finally gone and the gang presence in Gotham will be dealt a savage blow.

And when that day comes. His day in court. IN his SANCTUARY of a Courtroom, he is scarred. Maroni's key witness refuses to testify and Maroni's case is forced to be thrown out.

Justice alluded him. The legal system failed him. His new scarred psyche shows him a new path...

I also liked the tragedy of Bruce Wayne being forced into Dent's case without being able to tell Harvey about his actual role. In TLH, it's the first time that Dent flips the coin that his father gave him:

I was so sure that Bruce Wayne was doing favors for the Falcone family. But, a "jury of my peers" didn't agree with me. It's like they flipped a coin. Heads he wins; tails I lose. And Bruce Wayne, with all his money, his good family name, goes back to high society. Leaving the rest of us to take care of what needs to be done...

I like to think of that as being the turning point for Dent, and Bruce Wayne inadvertently having a hand in it.

I would LOVE it if TDK had something like that.

I think you are right here. I've always found Bruce and Harvey to be so similiar. i think the only real difference is Bruce had Alfred to guide him throughout hardships and anger. Harvey has had nobody but himself. Bruce may not have been much different than Harvey had he not had the direction and guidance of someone like Alfred.

Me too, although I think that Bruce also had the tremendous legacy of his parents (and the other generations of Waynes before him) to lead him on the right path. Doing right was the only thing he knew he had to do. Harvey, on the other hand, came from an abusive childhood so I'm guessing he's the first member of his family to really make a name for himself. Both Bruce and Harvey are under pressure to get things done, but it's a different kind of pressure for both.

 

[Aidan2209]

I think Harvey's increasing frustration and dissatisfaction with the judicial system he's a part of will give rise to the "dark side" that manifests itself after the split - much like The Long Halloween. He's very noble, very caring, and devoted to bringing justice to Gotham, but for all his efforts the bad guys are still walking. However, I don't think Harv will be quite as dark as he's represented in TLH, but will instead be a bit closer to the Year One Dent - the smiling Apollo. This sort of Dent is really only hinted at in TLH (by Gilda) as the way Harvey used to be. But, as I explained above, he won't simply be a "good" guy corrupted by acid *snicker* - there's a reason, or reasons, beyond the superficial for his post-acid persona - namely his waning faith in the system he's devoted his life to, and a growing urge to take the law into his own hands - after the split, he lets fly these pent-up emotions and crosses lines not even the Batman is willing to cross, appointing himself judge, jury and executioner.

 

[Jokers_Wild]

While Harvey was a great guy, he certainly had his problems. Even though TLH didn't specifically address it, Harvey's father abused him heavily. He'd flip a coin to see if Harvey got beaten, but it was a double sided coin (probably the same one he gave to Harvey in TLH) so no matter what Harvey got beaten.

This obviously screwed him up a bit, and he had some unresolved issues. It wasn't just the acid that made him go crazy, it was also the abuse he had been holding back from his childhood.

While I agree that Harvey was heroic, he certainly had his own internal problems. But like you mentioned, he's not a bad guy. He wouldn't work with the mob. He's just a good guy who had lots of crap happen to him and has lots of problems that he keeps beneath the surface.

You know, I remember one of my "sources" several months ago (his friend was working on the sound editing) told me that the Joker was beaten by his father, and that's how he became the Joker. Some of the other spoilers he gave me turned out to be true, but I dismissed this one, because Nolan made it clear that the Joker was absolute and that there was no backstory. Could it be possible that this footage of a father abusing his son was actually about Harvey??

Interesting, because I didn't even think about that...

 

[cjblair]

He got two face right because any one can do a better job than Forever. Dent was supposed to be Bruce's best friend, but Tommy Lee was just a wanker. Look at Lee's hair, it's coloured red, like they dipped half his head in a bucket of red paint. It was a straight line too, I thought being splashed with acid wouldn't leave a perfectly symmetrical line.

 

[Reflectionist]

He got two face right because any one can do a better job than Forever. Dent was supposed to be Bruce's best friend, but Tommy Lee was just a wanker. Look at Lee's hair, it's coloured red, like they dipped half his head in a bucket of red paint. It was a straight line too, I thought being splashed with acid wouldn't leave a perfectly symmetrical line.

Or, the more intelligent version (er, more in the know), would be that Nolan actually followed Two-Face's Comic origins, and didn't just sit down and say "Lets see how I can do Two-Face better than Joel Shumacher and Tommy Lee Jones.

 

[cjblair]

Or, the more intelligent version (er, more in the know), would be that Nolan actually followed Two-Face's Comic origins, and didn't just sit down and say "Lets see how I can do Two-Face better than Joel Shumacher and Tommy Lee Jones.

I noticed they went with the acid hand, that's an optional extra. Sometimes he has a burnt hand, other times he doesn't. I wonder if batman will be there. In the Long Halloween he wasn't in costume, but in other versions he is. If he tries and stops the Joker, but fails, Harv might blame him. They had that Wizard Con (?) footage where he said he was half dead. Maybe he wishes he died, instead of being screwed over, batman "half" saves him.

 

[Reflectionist]

I noticed they went with the acid hand, that's an optional extra. Sometimes he has a burnt hand, other times he doesn't. I wonder if batman will be there. In the Long Halloween he wasn't in costume, but in other versions he is. If he tries and stops the Joker, but fails, Harv might blame him. They had that Wizard Con (?) footage where he said he was half dead. Maybe he wishes he died, instead of being screwed over, batman "half" saves him.

Depends on the scarring scene. If Dent is quick enough to throw his hands up in protection, it might explain why his face is less than half scarred and so is his hand. Besides, a toy isn't really a great thing to go on if you want to severly analyze the Two-Face design.

I'd really like it if Bruce was present to the scarring either way, but I think Batman is going to be on everyone's ****list except for Gordon and Dent to begin with. (similar to what i think was two-face's first appearance in the comics??) Batman guides the freshly scarred Dent, and then when Dent starts crossing the line, Bruce's struggle with Two-Face becomes greater. We have to see Dent as Batman's friend, which we are. But it'll make that connection more personal for us through Batman's eyes (as we are trying to follow his arc even moreso than Dent's in this movie), for Batman to personally witness the acid scarring.

 

[cjblair]

Depends on the scarring scene. If Dent is quick enough to throw his hands up in protection, it might explain why his face is less than half scarred and so is his hand. Besides, a toy isn't really a great thing to go on if you want to severly analyze the Two-Face design.

I'd really like it if Bruce was present to the scarring either way, but I think Batman is going to be on everyone's ****list except for Gordon and Dent to begin with. (similar to what i think was two-face's first appearance in the comics??) Batman guides the freshly scarred Dent, and then when Dent starts crossing the line, Bruce's struggle with Two-Face becomes greater. We have to see Dent as Batman's friend, which we are. But it'll make that connection more personal for us through Batman's eyes (as we are trying to follow his arc even moreso than Dent's in this movie), for Batman to personally witness the acid scarring.

Arkham Asylum: A Serious House on Serious Earth, I liked it because Batman let Harv chose with a flip of the coin. The coin lands good side up, and Face lets him go. Only later do we realise that he made a choice to let him go. With Ra's it was adversarial, the man's trying to destroy the city. With the Joker, Batman regularly debates the morals of killing the wanker. With Two-Face he can't decide, you could say he's of two minds on the subject.

 

[mrsparkle]

He got two face right because any one can do a better job than Forever. Dent was supposed to be Bruce's best friend, but Tommy Lee was just a wanker. Look at Lee's hair, it's coloured red, like they dipped half his head in a bucket of red paint. It was a straight line too, I thought being splashed with acid wouldn't leave a perfectly symmetrical line.

This is explained in the movie, when harvey gets scarred in BF he is holding a sheet of paper in his hand and tries to use it to sheild his face as a reflex. However he only manages to sheild one half of his face.

 

[Reflectionist]

Arkham Asylum: A Serious House on Serious Earth, I liked it because Batman let Harv chose with a flip of the coin. The coin lands good side up, and Face lets him go. Only later do we realise that he made a choice to let him go. With Ra's it was adversarial, the man's trying to destroy the city. With the Joker, Batman regularly debates the morals of killing the wanker. With Two-Face he can't decide, you could say he's of two minds on the subject.

I was thinking more along the lines of "there's still good in him" a la Darth Vader, though. I'm thinking Bats wouldn't condone Harvey's new outlook on Justice and legality, and knows that he must stop Harvey. But at the same time, Harvey's friendship should mean a lot to him and Bats wouldn't want to Jeopardize that. And it makes sense this way to me, because that would continue the trend in Nolan's franchise.

First he learns Justice vs. Revenge.
Then there's Justice vs. Law. (A la the corrupt GCPD)
Then he learns Justice based on hope vs. Justice based on hopelessness - ( a la Ra's Al Ghul.)
Then he learns Justice in the face of Anarchy (A la the Joker).
Then Justice vs. Fear, which should be obvious.

And now he has to know how to stand up for Justice in the face of a friend. Which is one thing in itself, multiply that by two (pun intended), because his friend once believed in that exact same Justice. Hence the Bats / Gordon / Dent relationship. Which would give it weight emotionally, plus he may not be quite out of his mindset on dealing with the Anarchy of the Joker, which might burn whatever Bridge he had with Harvey to begin with. Keep in mind, that Bats' methods for attaining justice should logically be starkly different between the dangerous-explosive-anarchist-theatrical Joker against the idealistic, specific, and former District Attorney Harvey Dent. They're polar opposites.

And even then, I think that would make sense. Gives a little more undercurrent to the whole Duality / Opposites theme that could go on here. Takes Justice vs. Revenge a lot further than what was previously explored.

Does that make sense or did I just blow smoke out of my ass?

This is explained in the movie, when harvey gets scarred in BF he is holding a sheet of paper in his hand and tries to use it to sheild his face as a reflex. However he only manages to sheild one half of his face.

What? Harvey didn't get scarred in BF......... wtf.

 

[Bat-Mite]

What? Harvey didn't get scarred in BF......... wtf.

They show him getting scarred in a report on the news. It even shows Batman hopping out of the jury box or something to try to save him. lol

 

[Wolverine_05]

On the other hand we had the origin told by Timm/Dini in Batman:TAS. While the show was incredible - IMO the way they handled Harvey Dent was a disgrace. I don't want to get too caught up on that tirade now (I will if one would like to argue that point), but I found that it cheapened the character of Harvey Dent. It took away a lot of the brilliance of his story. It turned Harvey Dent: Hero into Harvey Dent: Time Bomb.

The Long Holloween came out years after The Animated Series. Correct me if I'm wrong (since I was only 7 or 8 when Batman Annual 14 came out), before the Long Holloween and the Animated Series his origin was established as him having an abusive father and being schizophrenic. Similar to the Animated series where he was seeing a psychiatrist to help him with his other personality. Plus he was kind of cocky before he became Two Face which was similar to how he was in his earliest incarnations when he was Harvey "Apollo" Dent. How can you use strong words like "a disgrace" when it was based on what was going on in the comics? That would make the previous comics a disgrace as well.


Found this synopsis of Batman Annual 14 in the wiki entry on Gilda Dent:

Her role in Harvey's past was updated in what some consider the definitive Two-Face origin: Batman Annual # 14 (1990), a story called "Eye of the Beholder." In this story, it's revealed that Harvey's father was an abusive alcoholic who would nightly play a game with his young son: "I'll flip a coin: if it's heads, I beat you. Tails, I don't." Harvey spent a lifetime burying his rage and resentment, only to discover that the coin was two-headed all along. She clearly shared his resentment, but without the love he felt that was tearing him apart. She scoffed that after a lifetime of abuse and cruelty, the only thing he ever gave Harvey was a coin.

Gilda tried to calm Harvey down as his mental state deteriorated. She pleaded after him when, upon awakening from a nightmare, he raced out of their bed in the middle of the night and went to his office, "where it's safe." After the acid hit his face, Gilda visited Harvey in the hospital to try and give him back the coin. It was his in pocket during the trail, and was also hit by some acid, scarring one side of the coin. The last we see of Gilda in this story is right after Two-Face's murder of Adrian Fields, tearfully explaing Harvey's childhood abuse to Batman.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilda_Dent#Post-Crisis_history


I'm not arguing whether it's a good origin or not, I'm just saying that it's wrong to say the Two Face from the Animated Series is a "disgrace" when he is based very much on the version in the comics at the time.

 

[A.J.Rimmer(BSC)]

They show him getting scarred in a report on the news. It even shows Batman hopping out of the jury box or something to try to save him. lol

Thats true. Its was a chubby gangster who threw the acid. Dent raises his files to his face (covering only half) and Batman leaps up, too late to stop it.

 

[TLH]

Just saw the Two-Face toy. He looks perfect. We can only hope the film translation is near identical.

 

[Drummerdude7]

Thats true. Its was a chubby gangster who threw the acid. Dent raises his files to his face (covering only half) and Batman leaps up, too late to stop it.

they had to be some very durable manila folders to stop that acid...
and people must have been to preoccupied staring at batman in the courtroom to notice the chubby guy throw the acid at dent.......

grrr batman forever

 

[Infinity9999x]

The Long Holloween came out years after The Animated Series. Correct me if I'm wrong (since I was only 7 or 8 when Batman Annual 14 came out), before the Long Holloween and the Animated Series his origin was established as him having an abusive father and being schizophrenic. Similar to the Animated series where he was seeing a psychiatrist to help him with his other personality. Plus he was kind of cocky before he became Two Face which was similar to how he was in his earliest incarnations when he was Harvey "Apollo" Dent. How can you use strong words like "a disgrace" when it was based on what was going on in the comics? That would make the previous comics a disgrace as well.

The Long Halloween came out in 1996, so it was only about 3 or 4 years after TAS started, so it wasn't that far off.

I know the reason I dislike Harvey's TAS origin is for a few reasons. To begin with, he already had a split personality, and that didn't fit with the character. This personality was basically just the basic "bad guy" side. The thing that didn't make sense is, when Harvey gets scarred, his "bad side" gets in control, but it suddenly changed it's habits to include an obsession with duality. That doesn't make sense. The personality had already been established with it's own habbits.

In the comics, Harvey had lots of problems because of the abusive suffered by his father. He didn't have a full blown split personality yet. Not only that, but the tendancy towards duality had already been planted in his brain because of how his father would beat him (flipping a coin to see if he would get beaten, and always beating him because it was a doubble sided coin). Harvey simply had lots of problems, and that combined with the stress before the Falcone case, and the scarring pushed him over the edge and created the other personality that was obsessed with the duality of life.

That way makes more sense, TAS origin didn't really fit with Two-face's character.

 

[Carnotaur3]

I dont necessarily agree since when Harvey became Two-Face he still had a loving wife (and/or girlfriend if you like the Timm/Dini disgrace).

But if Rachel ends up being his girlfriend in the film (his moral compass as well) and gets killed off, I think it'd be more likely he'd be making bad decisions because of it. Think of it psychologically.... now he has NOBODY.