The Dark Knight Why Nolan Got Two Face Right...

[MarkJK1441]

I am sure by now most of you have seen the toy rendering of Two Face, giving us a clear indication of what his character will look like in the movie. Less of you have probably read the Aaron Eckhart Q&A, which you should sense it may be the best bit of news to come out of this movie in a very long while. This simply little question and answer segment gives us more information on Harvey Dent than, probably, all other reports combined.

There will be spoilers - and I do so hope that won't be a problem given the title of this forum.

Now I had many arguments in the past with a variety of people arguing about which of two variations of Harvey's Origin we would get, and what we should get. When I read The Long Halloween I feel in love with the character of Harvey Dent. He instantly became one of my most favorite characters in the entire Batman Mythos. He was compellingly tragic. I loved the idea of Gotham's greatest hero becoming torn apart piece by piece by the very city he was trying to save - and that is exactly the story The Long Halloween tells. It depicts a District Attorney who is not only a great guy, an honest guy, a trustworthy guy - but willing to do what needs to be done while staying in the law. In the early years of Gotham City - one could argue it was Harvey Dent, not Batman, who was Gotham's true savior.

On the other hand we had the origin told by Timm/Dini in Batman:TAS. While the show was incredible - IMO the way they handled Harvey Dent was a disgrace. I don't want to get too caught up on that tirade now (I will if one would like to argue that point), but I found that it cheapened the character of Harvey Dent. It took away a lot of the brilliance of his story. It turned Harvey Dent: Hero into Harvey Dent: Time Bomb.

It was this difference in approaches that had me (a bit) worried about The Dark Knight. Batman Begins gave me my ideal big screen Batman, my ideal big screen James Gordon - I wanted the hat trick.

I have been keeping tabs on the various interviews with Aaron Eckhart, trying to pick away for nuggets to let me shape what his character will be. This last one, I believe, finally gave a clear indication of the way Nolan is going.

While I wont copy and paste the entire interview here are some of my very snips:



[/color][/font]Eckhart also refers to Harvey at one point as a Vigilante.

These descriptions do not fit the version of Two Face depicted in the Animated Series, though this sounds like an exact description of TLH Two Face.

This should put to rest the ridiculous rumors of Harvey Dent working for the mob, as well as the idea that we will see Harvey Dent as a many with great anger and darkness BEFORE his scaring.

Since I do bring up his scaring, it is important to note that Nolan got that right too. I should also note that just as Harvey Dent sounds like TLH in character - he also looks a good bit like Tim Sale's Two Face in look too. Here - perhaps for the first time - Nolan has given us a character that is not only perfect internally, but externally.

I only wish he would of done the same for the Joker.

Ok, we can not know how harvey dent/two face is going to be in this film. The only knowledge we have of him is some interviews and bad spy photo of the toy. So, how do we know if Nolan got Two Face "right" if we have no knowledge. The only characters we can make assumptions about are the ones we have seen from Batman Begins and The Joker from the Trailer and the Imax scene, but to say that Two Face is going to be potrayed in such a way is stupid because we do not have enough knowledge of how he is actually going to be potrayed in the movie.

 

[Anita18]

You know, I remember one of my "sources" several months ago (his friend was working on the sound editing) told me that the Joker was beaten by his father, and that's how he became the Joker. Some of the other spoilers he gave me turned out to be true, but I dismissed this one, because Nolan made it clear that the Joker was absolute and that there was no backstory. Could it be possible that this footage of a father abusing his son was actually about Harvey??

Interesting, because I didn't even think about that...

I also have a friend who works in sound (although sound mixing which is less "important" than editing) and he's not privy to any story details until the film gets onto the stage for mixing. (Then he gets very knowledgeable since he's got to watch it a billion times. )

I'm not sure how knowledgeable one would be in story details "months ago" after they just wrapped filming if they're not working on the story.

It's still an interesting idea, though.

In the comics, Harvey had lots of problems because of the abusive suffered by his father. He didn't have a full blown split personality yet. Not only that, but the tendancy towards duality had already been planted in his brain because of how his father would beat him (flipping a coin to see if he would get beaten, and always beating him because it was a doubble sided coin). Harvey simply had lots of problems, and that combined with the stress before the Falcone case, and the scarring pushed him over the edge and created the other personality that was obsessed with the duality of life.

That way makes more sense, TAS origin didn't really fit with Two-face's character.

There's a whole study of psychology involving child abuse that I'm sorta reading up on and yeah, a lot of them develop a "second personality" that they're not aware of to deal with the abuse. It's unfortunate to realize how common it is....

 

[explode7]

How exactly Nolan got Two Face right? Have someone seen the movie and reported this?

 

[StorminNorman]

Ok, we can not know how harvey dent/two face is going to be in this film. The only knowledge we have of him is some interviews and bad spy photo of the toy. So, how do we know if Nolan got Two Face "right" if we have no knowledge. The only characters we can make assumptions about are the ones we have seen from Batman Begins and The Joker from the Trailer and the Imax scene, but to say that Two Face is going to be potrayed in such a way is stupid because we do not have enough knowledge of how he is actually going to be potrayed in the movie.

1. Nolan has admitted that The Long Halloween is a huge influence for Harvey Dent in this film.

2. Quote after Quote made by Eckhart.

3. I'm the Goddamn StorminNorman

 

[StorminNorman]

The Long Holloween came out years after The Animated Series. Correct me if I'm wrong (since I was only 7 or 8 when Batman Annual 14 came out), before the Long Holloween and the Animated Series his origin was established as him having an abusive father and being schizophrenic. Similar to the Animated series where he was seeing a psychiatrist to help him with his other personality. Plus he was kind of cocky before he became Two Face which was similar to how he was in his earliest incarnations when he was Harvey "Apollo" Dent. How can you use strong words like "a disgrace" when it was based on what was going on in the comics? That would make the previous comics a disgrace as well.


Found this synopsis of Batman Annual 14 in the wiki entry on Gilda Dent:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilda_Dent#Post-Crisis_history


I'm not arguing whether it's a good origin or not, I'm just saying that it's wrong to say the Two Face from the Animated Series is a "disgrace" when he is based very much on the version in the comics at the time.

I am referring the the handling of the character in general.

The first scene we see Harvey Dent in? He is sitting, in the shadows, flipping a coin looking very similar to Inspector Gadget's Claw. He oozed villain there, before we got any chance to see him as a good man.

And then you have the fact that Harvey was a ticking time bomb then and there. He already had the double side, the good and evil. Gotham played no effect on him. Harvey was GOING to explode into Two Face no matter what he did. It down plays the entire scarring incident (which is probably a good thing given how...silly it was) and simplifies the character very much.

 

[GoogleMe94]

twoface i always thought was more of a tragic villian, who was a good guy who got scarred and went insane and became evil. tortured, but evil in the end.

 

[GoogleMe94]

anyway, despite the liberties nolan took with the visual style of his twoface, anything is bound to be better then TLJ versio, who was mainly joker with a split face. enjoyable, but not the character from the comics.

 

[-Crusher-]

loved that opening post stormin, you obviously did your homework.
i agree with everything except your little thing on the joker

 

[Nepenthes]

So far it looks like they've done a VERY good job with Two-Face, sure.

but one thing to keep in mind is that with this character Nolan does not have a prior incarnation to to overcome. I'm talking Nicholson. Part of the reason alot of fans are disspointed with the new Joker is that a radical reinterpreation is required to create something new and distinct. Two-Face has appeared in film before, I know, but not *really* he hasn't. He was hardly iconic, true to character or even entertaining or deep, ask most people and they wont know who Two-Face even is. So even though Harvey is indeed a complex character to be handled with care, and we're glad Nolans got it right, he doesnt require a departure or reinvention like weve seen with Joker. The exact blueprints for Two-Face already existed in TLH and other books, ready to be copy and pasted into film.

So to compare Nolans results with Joker to Two-Face are hardly fair I think. Two-Face is a complicated villain yeah, but compared to Joker? There's no reason why Nolan SHOULD NOT have gotten this right.

 

[Doc Samson]

One thing I still question about all this though, is just how good of friends are Harvey and Bruce in this movie? I know Harv has a working relationship with Bats, but personally, Harvey is dating, or somehow involved, with Rachel. In the trailer, right before the scene when the Joker crashes the party and threatens Rachel, you can see the quick glimpse of Bruce walking in while Rachel and Dent are sitting at dinner, and the look on Bruce's face doesn't seem happy, he looks like he's trying to make her jealous with his date, something a "friend" wouldn't do. Combine that with the emergence of his new "Playboy" Wayne facade at the end of BB, the party animal who burned his own mansion down and disrespected his guests, and I question for what reason Dent would even want to associate with Bruce Wayne in the first place?

 

[Gianakin_]

I don't know if they're friends, but judging by an excerpt from the Al Roker show, he supports Dent's campaign ("This man is the future of Gotham"). Exept if he's drunk for some reason, like he pretended to be in BB. But I'm reaching there.

 

[cjblair]

Why does child abuse matter? The man's had half his face burnt off, why does he need more reasons to be "evil"? In Bangladesh they routinely acid attack women who want a divorce, these women end up in the asylum and who can blame them. The Long Halloween shows Face as a hard working DA who has a stressful life, house gets blown up, wife in hospital. Finally a mob boss comes along promising to testify in return for immunity. SCORE...He's finally caught the Roman (Falcone) after all these years. Case of a lifetime, then Maroni gives him a faceful of acid in front of everyone. He finds out his assistant has betrayed him.

 

[Anita18]

Why does child abuse matter? The man's had half his face burnt off, why does he need more reasons to be "evil"? In Bangladesh they routinely acid attack women who want a divorce, these women end up in the asylum and who can blame them. The Long Halloween shows Face as a hard working DA who has a stressful life, house gets blown up, wife in hospital. Finally a mob boss comes along promising to testify in return for immunity. SCORE...He's finally caught the Roman (Falcone) after all these years. Case of a lifetime, then Maroni gives him a faceful of acid in front of everyone. He finds out his assistant has betrayed him.

But those incidents (and the victims' reactions to them) don't happen in a vacuum. Those women you mentioned...I'm sure the acid attack wasn't the singular, traumatic, oppressive thing they ever endured. They most likely had an entire lifetime of it, and that one horrific attack was the thing that pushed them over the edge.

Harvey Dent is who he is because of his life history, just as Bruce Wayne was shaped by what happened to him as a child. I don't know if it's correct at all to say that superhero comic books get any of the psychology right, but they do attempt to explain some of it.

I don't think you'd have to show it explicitly in flashbacks though. When the writing and acting is good enough, the audience should be able to deduce it for themselves. Scarecrow in BB wasn't given a backstory, but from the writing and Cillian Murphy's acting, it was clear that he was a little guy who was sick and tired of being pushed around by bigger guys, so he fought back by being a big bad guy the only way he knew how - through the mind.

 

[StylishHokie21]

How do we know he got Two Face right? The movie isn't even out.

 

[cjblair]

How do we know he got Two Face right? The movie isn't even out.

We're bored waiting for the trailer, gotta do something. IN NOLAN WE TRUST (until otherwise informed).

 

[Nepenthes]

One thing I still question about all this though, is just how good of friends are Harvey and Bruce in this movie? I know Harv has a working relationship with Bats, but personally, Harvey is dating, or somehow involved, with Rachel. In the trailer, right before the scene when the Joker crashes the party and threatens Rachel, you can see the quick glimpse of Bruce walking in while Rachel and Dent are sitting at dinner, and the look on Bruce's face doesn't seem happy, he looks like he's trying to make her jealous with his date, something a "friend" wouldn't do. Combine that with the emergence of his new "Playboy" Wayne facade at the end of BB, the party animal who burned his own mansion down and disrespected his guests, and I question for what reason Dent would even want to associate with Bruce Wayne in the first place?

Yeah I don't think Bruce and Harvey will be anything more than 'civil' towards each other, for the reasons you've stated and because it just works a better dynamic as well. I am looking forward the 'Ganon & Natacha' scene in the sides, if this is true it will be a major scene for their relationship. Bruce will act dumb and apathetic, Dent will rant and rave and probably be bpatronsing towards towards Bruce, while 'Batman' however is trying to contain his delight and admiration in knowing he has an ally. Will be a good scene.

 

[-Crusher-]

somthing tells me harvey will be ever so slightly a jerk towards bruce. just in that cocky sort of way, know what i mean?

then again i might just be blowing smoke out of my ass.

 

[MarkJK1441]

1. Nolan has admitted that The Long Halloween is a huge influence for Harvey Dent in this film.

2. Quote after Quote made by Eckhart.

3. I'm the Goddamn StorminNorman

I am just saying that there is no way to know if Nolan got Two face "right" until we see the movie or atleast some footage of Two face. I will agree that he probably did get Two face "right", but there is no way to know until we see the movie.

 

[explode7]

^Exactly.

 

[Infinity9999x]

Why does child abuse matter? The man's had half his face burnt off, why does he need more reasons to be "evil"? In Bangladesh they routinely acid attack women who want a divorce, these women end up in the asylum and who can blame them. The Long Halloween shows Face as a hard working DA who has a stressful life, house gets blown up, wife in hospital. Finally a mob boss comes along promising to testify in return for immunity. SCORE...He's finally caught the Roman (Falcone) after all these years. Case of a lifetime, then Maroni gives him a face full of acid in front of everyone. He finds out his assistant has betrayed him.

Why does the child abuse matter? Because without it, Two-Face would be a completely different villain.

Let's say Harvey was never abused, and he just had a really stressful time before the Roman case and then gets acid in his face. Why would he become obsessed with duality? The odds are he may have just became disillusioned with the justice system and decided to take things into his own hands.

However, the way his dad abused him planted the seed that would later lead Harvey to turn to Two-Face. His dad took a two headed coin, and would tell Harvey "If I flip tails, you won't get beaten." Well, obviously he never flipped tails because it was a two-headed coin.

This kind of abuse was just as mental as it was physical, Harvey probably thought that fate had it out for him. There were two choices for him, get beaten or not get beaten, and fate always seemed to throw him the wrong choice.

In short, it planted the seed for his obsession with the duality of life, and that's what Two-Face is all about. He's not just another crazy with a "bad" split personality. That split personality has a motive, and it's motive is it's obsession with Duality. Without the child abuse, Harvey may not have even formed the split personality after the acid, but instead decided to simply become a violent vigilante and deal out justice on his own terms.

In short, the child abuse made Two-Face the unique villain he is today.

 

[MarkJK1441]

^Exactly.

thank you some one agrees with me

 

[CaptainClown]

I am going to laugh so hard if Harvey acts like TLJ in BF

 

[Voyeur]

Well, I'd like to defend the Animated Series, just a tad. I agree that I love the version of Two-Face in The Long Halloween more. He's even more tragic and more compelling as one of Batman's greatest villain.

But even in the Animated Series, their version of Two-Face was one of the most compelling characters in the show's run. And the two-part (appropriate, don't you think?) episode was one (er, I mean two) of my favorites.

As I recall, the series came before The Long Halloween, so I forgive them for having different interpretations, but I very much enjoyed their Two-Face.

Having said that, I'm glad the film series is going the Long Halloween direction instead.

Oh, and I LOVE this Joker, so far.

 

[CaptainClown]

TLH made me actually like two-face; before I was kind of meh

 

[DaRkVeNgeanCe]

somthing tells me harvey will be ever so slightly a jerk towards bruce. just in that cocky sort of way, know what i mean?

then again i might just be blowing smoke out of my ass.

That dosent sound healthy, you better go and get that looked at!