Why the hate for Wolverine?

[danoyse]

You know what i apologize for the Jerk part but i stand by everything else .

You're outstanding in your field. Just like every cow in America.

 

[undomiel]

I disagree. It worked perfectly for LOTR. There were at least 3-4 sotry arcs taking place at the same time involving multiple chars. We switched back and forth between these and didn't feel like anyone was short-changed.

Oh no, no, my friend. You have that quite wrong. The LOTR writers themselves talked about the necessity of making everything in the films "Frodo-centric".

Then we must be thinking of different sports. I'm thinking of Soccer, and Hockey. Ronaldo, Gretzky, Dejna, and Gadocha are fantastic athletes and celebrities in their sports, but they alone do not have what it takes to win a match. Passing the ball to Gretzky or Ronaldo does not automatically guarranty a goal, and no coach or manager is foolish enough to keep giving the same players the balls to give them an opportunity to make the shot in order to impress fans and the press. Nor are the above-mentioned players captains of their teams either. They may be the celebrities, but when it comes time to put together a strategy to win the game, it takes a team effort, where everyone plays their part.

Same deal with Wolverine. He may be Marvel's and FOX's poster child, but he alone and his powers are not enough to win the battle all on his own. He can't solve all problems himself, he can't save everyone himself, and he can't defeat every enemy himself.

That's funny -- I was thinking of hockey, too. Incidentally, Gretzky was the captain of the Edmonton Oilers and, if I recall correctly, the LA Kings as well.

But you misunderstood my point -- I wasn't at all saying he could save or solve everything by himself, nor do I believe that's how he was protrayed in the films. Just like in team sports -- no one player can win a game all by himself, but some players turn in clutch performances that help the team to victory, like the guy that scores the game-winning goal or the goalie that makes all the impossible saves. Those players tend to get more recognition, but that doesn't mean they were looking for it. It's the adoration of the public that makes them popular.

What's impressive about all the chars is not their powers, but the fact that they're ALL larger than life when it comes to heart and courage. Cyclops', Jean'sand Storm's courage or their willingness to sacrifice themselves is no less than Wolverine's.

 

[undomiel]

I disagree. It worked perfectly for LOTR. There were at least 3-4 sotry arcs taking place at the same time involving multiple chars. We switched back and forth between these and didn't feel like anyone was short-changed.

Oh no, no, my friend. You have that quite wrong. The LOTR writers themselves talked about the necessity of making everything in the films "Frodo-centric".

Then we must be thinking of different sports. I'm thinking of Soccer, and Hockey. Ronaldo, Gretzky, Dejna, and Gadocha are fantastic athletes and celebrities in their sports, but they alone do not have what it takes to win a match. Passing the ball to Gretzky or Ronaldo does not automatically guarranty a goal, and no coach or manager is foolish enough to keep giving the same players the balls to give them an opportunity to make the shot in order to impress fans and the press. Nor are the above-mentioned players captains of their teams either. They may be the celebrities, but when it comes time to put together a strategy to win the game, it takes a team effort, where everyone plays their part.

Same deal with Wolverine. He may be Marvel's and FOX's poster child, but he alone and his powers are not enough to win the battle all on his own. He can't solve all problems himself, he can't save everyone himself, and he can't defeat every enemy himself.

That's funny -- I was thinking of hockey, too. Incidentally, Gretzky was the captain of the Edmonton Oilers and, if I recall correctly, the LA Kings as well.

But you misunderstood my point -- I wasn't at all saying he could save or solve everything by himself, nor do I believe that's how he was protrayed in the films. Just like in team sports -- no one player can win a game all by himself, but some players turn in clutch performances that help the team to victory, like the guy that scores the game-winning goal or the goalie that makes all the impossible saves. Those players tend to get more recognition, but that doesn't mean they were looking for it. It's the adoration of the public that makes them popular.

What's impressive about all the chars is not their powers, but the fact that they're ALL larger than life when it comes to heart and courage. Cyclops', Jean'sand Storm's courage or their willingness to sacrifice themselves is no less than Wolverine's.

Again, I think you must have misunderstood me. I don't believe it's Wolverine's powers that make him impressive. In fact, I like his lack of exotic powers. It makes him more interesting and easier to relate to than a character with "phenomenal, cosmic powers". He's not invincible; he's actually vulnerable in many ways though he is incredibly tough.

Not quite. And this is why X3 is flawed. Wolverine had no story to be centered around in the third film. The Cure was not about him, and Jean's predicament was not about him either.

Him being upset that Jean's turned evil is not to be confused as being the center of the story. Jean and what's happening to her instead should have been the main focus, NOT how Wolverine feels about it. Because obviously it upset Storm and the rest of the X-Men as well, and would have done to to a much higher degree. Wolverine knew Jean for about 1-2 weeks tops. The rest of the X-men would have known her for years. They would have alot more to be upset about.

Yes, the third story was the completion of the story arc of Wolverine's love for Jean, which was destined to end tragically. And I do think that what was happening to Jean was very important to the story, but its impact is much more dramatically displayed as we see how it affects those who care about her. And no, it would not have affected any of the other X-men as much as it affects Wolverine because he's desperately in love with her (and Scott is dead). Also, you keep using the short time frame that Wolvie knew Jean as a proof-text against the depth of his love for her. This is predicated upon the assumption that longevity is the key to caring for someone. Yet we know this is not necessarily the case -- think of husbands and wives who've spent years together just tolerating each other. Time and shared history are not guarantees of true love. You also misunderstand a few things about Wolverine. He relates to people the way animals do -- he's very instinctive and quick and certain in his judgments of people. He knows almost instantly whom he hates and whom he loves. He's very direct and intense -- it doesn't take him an age to figure out he's in love with Jean, so he doesn't need more than a few weeks/months around her to love her like that.

 

[danoyse]

Oh no, no, my friend. You have that quite wrong. The LOTR writers themselves talked about the necessity of making everything in the films "Frodo-centric".

Exactly. Like earlier I stated as well, I saw Peter Jackson and Fran Walsh in person defending those changes and warning what was to come in the next two movies to a room full of fans because of the uproar that he knew was brewing on amongst them.

You can barely compare LOTR to X-Men anway. LOTR is one story, by one writer. Every adaptation--from the animated movies, to Peter Jackson's movies, even to the stage version that just played in Toronto, is based on that one story by Tolkien.

X-Men is 40 years of stories, with different writers who have different takes on so many characters. Putting that all into a 2-hour movie means making sacrifices and changes that they know are going to piss people off, but this is the story they want to tell, and they're going to tell it the way they think it will appeal to a mass audience.

Are the movies the first place where this happened? I saw a few episodes of "X-Men Evolution" recently...which I refer to now as "X-Men: 90210". They made all the X-Men kids, had them going to a high school with Mystique as the principal (?!?!), who was recruiting Brotherhood members for Magneto, who drifted around like Darth Vader. Hell, Wolverine was more of a teacher/leader--with an even more ridiculous healing factor (he had brain surgery? how'd they get through his metal skull?) than he was in any of X3.

I saw James Marsden in an interview for X3, and talked about how he'd checked out a local comic store and asked for comic books to get some idea of the character...but he said eventually the script was written, and from there that was the base for everything going forward.

 

[The Batman]

She seems to get respect from everyone but you and Kurosawa. That speaks volumes, doesn't it?

Yes.

That means shes doing something right with everyone else.

And i truly wish people would stop lumping me in with kuro. I actually like wolverine, for one thing. And not to mention kuro dosent really respect anyone here.

 

[ntcrawler]

Oh no, no, my friend. You have that quite wrong. The LOTR writers themselves talked about the necessity of making everything in the films "Frodo-centric".

No, you're incorrect. It's clear just by watching the film that Aragon's story arc was just as important and prominent as Frodo's. It's most definitely not Frodo-Centric. If anything, they both get equel coverage.

That's funny -- I was thinking of hockey, too. Incidentally, Gretzky was the captain of the Edmonton Oilers and, if I recall correctly, the LA Kings as well.

But it's the goalie who coordinates the team's strategy if I'm not mistaken. Again, you pass the puck to the guy who's in the best position to make a shot. Not to the guy who's your biggest star.

But you misunderstood my point -- I wasn't at all saying he could save or solve everything by himself, nor do I believe that's how he was protrayed in the films. Just like in team sports -- no one player can win a game all by himself, but some players turn in clutch performances that help the team to victory, like the guy that scores the game-winning goal or the goalie that makes all the impossible saves.

Remember Magic Johnson? He set the record for the most assists, not total points. Assists meaning that more than anyone else he passed the ball over to another player to help them make a shot. Therefore his action was just as important as that of the player who scored the actual point. That, is teamwork.

Those players tend to get more recognition, but that doesn't mean they were looking for it. It's the adoration of the public that makes them popular.

The public's adoration does not influence the coaches strategy on how to use a player. If he sucks, he's pulled off the field, public opinion be damned. If he's not good at a certain position, he gets transferred to another post where he can contribute the most. Just because they demand to see more of a player on the field is not going to get the coach to put a player more in the public eye if such action contributes nothing to helping them win a match.

 

[The Batman]

I'm still not seeing how wolverine's popularity gives fox the right to undermine cruicial characters to make him look better.

 

[ntcrawler]

Yes, the third story was the completion of the story arc of Wolverine's love for Jean, which was destined to end tragically.

Exactly. It wasn't meant to be and he didn't have a chance.

And I do think that what was happening to Jean was very important to the story, but its impact is much more dramatically displayed as we see how it affects those who care about her. And no, it would not have affected any of the other X-men as much as it affects Wolverine because he's desperately in love with her (and Scott is dead).

Irrelevent. Him crying out to her out of love is nothing compared to the impact her loss would have on her parents, her family, and to people like Ororo and Hank, who were as close as she could have to a brother and sister. Not to mention some of her students.

Also, you keep using the short time frame that Wolvie knew Jean as a proof-text against the depth of his love for her. This is predicated upon the assumption that longevity is the key to caring for someone. Yet we know this is not necessarily the case

Yes, and that is a valid argument. He's been around Jean not longer than 1-2 weeks, tops. Most of that time spent was not in a romantic situation with her, either. And Lengetivity is the key for caring to someone and the best foundation for a relationship, as it gives you the best opportunity to learn all the nuances about that person which help make that relationship work. And as a result, no one was in a better position than Scott. It may not be the case for other couples, but it's clearly the case here and why their relationship worked.

-- think of husbands and wives who've spent years together just tolerating each other.

Irrelevant. This was not the case here. There was plenty of warmth in this relationship. Scott and Jean's bond was hardly for pragmatic or practical reasons.

Time and shared history are not guarantees of true love.

No, but it is in this case, as this is the foundation that their relationship was based on. You can extrapolate all you want from other examples, but none of those examples apply to this specific situation.

You also misunderstand a few things about Wolverine. He relates to people the way animals do -- he's very instinctive and quick and certain in his judgments of people. He knows almost instantly whom he hates and whom he loves.

He's free to love anyone who wants, but that is no guarranty that they will love him back or even be available in the first place.

He's very direct and intense -- it doesn't take him an age to figure out he's in love with Jean, so he doesn't need more than a few weeks/months around her to love her like that.

Again, what you describe is a crush. Logan can yearn all he wants for Jean, but that is no guarranty that she will respond to him in a mutual fashion, or by seeing his yearning she will feel sorry for him and give into his desires. It has never happened in any incarnation of the X-men, and it has no business being here. Wolverine's crush on Jean has never been more than something that passed through, certainly not even close to jeopardizing her feelings towards Scott. To portray it the way it is here is one of the reasons why X3 violates well established and known character traits.
And once again, when it came time to putting his money on the table and offering up the challenge, Jean made it very, very clear. She loves Scott, and Scott is the one she'll be taking home. There is no other interpretation for this, there is no room to turn it into a gray area or to debate about it. She chose Scott. Not Logan. Logan accepted that. His fans should too. That issues should have been settled and buried the way it was by the end of X2. To open it up again like it was in X3 is only beating a dead horse.

 

[ntcrawler]

I'm still not seeing how wolverine's popularity gives fox the right to undermine cruicial characters to make him look better.

That's why this debate is going in a circle. The wolverine fans here point out that that is exactly why things happened the way they did and consider it a justifiable reason to do so in the first place. Because the fans wanted more Wolvorine, they got more Wolverine. if that means compromising other roles, then so be it, as those other roles weren't as good or popular as Wolverine.

 

[danoyse]

Nope! Dont you see?!?!?!?!?! Jackman had "IT". And Marsden did not! It couldnt be because Fox was intent on making Wolverine the star from the beginning, even calling their early scripts "Wolverine and the X-Men"!

On that note, allow me to quote the editor-in-chief of Premiere Magazine, who has Hugh Jackman on the cover of their September 2006 Fall Preview issue (coincidentally, with the headline: "Hugh Jackman Sinks His Claws Into Two of the Season's Best Films")

Hugh Jackman is clearly the man of the season. Following the whopping success of X-Men: The Last Stand, he's starring in Woody Allen's Scoop, voicing characters in the animated films Flushed Away and Happy Feet, and appearing in two of the fall's most anticipated films, Christopher Nolan's The Prestige and Darren Aronofksy's The Fountain.

Just as Nolan (Memento, Batman Begins) and Aronofsky (Pi, Requiem for a Dream) are young auteurs most A-List actors would kill to work with, Jackman is an actor who most A-list directors would kill to work with: The range he shows in going from X3 to Scoop to The Fountain is astonishing, something we're not used to seeing in someone with such classic movie star looks.

But then again, Jackman is Australian, and something in the water, or the training, seems to produce movie stars (Nicole Kidman, Cate Blanchett, Russell Crowe) who are true actors.

The Fountain is also going to be one of the more controversial movies of the fall. It's a dizzying, confounding, and often thrilling meditation on the acceptance of death as part of life, a love story (between Jackman and Aronofsky's fiancee, Rachel Weisz) that spans a thousand years. It's daring and moving filmmaking, and a must-see for people who care about adventurous cinema.

And that, my doubting friends...is what is known as *IT*.

Thank you, and good night.

 

[The Batman]

Even still, in franchises like lotr and star wars, the side characters got ample screentime with a clear protagonist as the star.

That didnt happen here. Thats why fans are mad

 

[The Batman]

On that note, allow me to quote the editor-in-chief of Premiere Magazine, who has Hugh Jackman on the cover of their September 2006 Fall Preview issue (coincidentally, with the headline: "Hugh Jackman Sinks His Claws Into Two of the Season's Best Films")



And that, my doubting friends...is what is known as *IT*.

Thank you, and good night.

I'm not doubting "It". I'm saying that Wolverine being the main star wasnt because Jackman had "IT" its because it was designed from the beginning. Even Zak Penn said as much.

"IT" was not a factor in wolverine dominating the franchise....or should i say not THE reason for so much wolverine exposure

 

[ntcrawler]

On that note, allow me to quote the editor-in-chief of Premiere Magazine, who has Hugh Jackman on the cover of their September 2006 Fall Preview issue (coincidentally, with the headline: "Hugh Jackman Sinks His Claws Into Two of the Season's Best Films")

Like you, the writer is entitled to his or her opinion

Thank you, and good night.

Adieu

 

[danoyse]

Like you, the writer is entitled to his or her opinion

But the editor-in-chief of a major movie magazine bears a little more weight than some internet message boards posters, don't you think?

Adieu

You didn't think I'd actually leave, did you?

 

[ntcrawler]

But the editor-in-chief of a major movie magazine bears a little more weight than some internet message boards posters, don't you think?

He doesn't influence my opinion or descision to see a movie or a show anymore than another poster on a message board. If I don't like something, I don't. No amount of authority vested in a person is going to change that. Who you or I consider to have weight is obviously different and completely arbitrary, just like who each of us considers to be famous or a celebrity. And opinions are not facts

You didn't think I'd actually leave, did you?

I knew you couldn't resist my charm

 

[ntcrawler]

On that note, allow me to quote the editor-in-chief of Premiere Magazine, who has Hugh Jackman on the cover of their September 2006 Fall Preview issue

Well then, you should also consider the August Issue of Fitness & Health, which just happens to have James Marsden on the cover with the headline "James Marsden, movie star". Inside, they praise him for portraying one of the most famous comic characters of all time in this season's hottest comics film, in addition to his much-anticipated starring role in Enchanted and other upcoming projects, with a wonder multi-page spread and proclaiming that he's not only a superhero, but also a super dad.

So to those in doubts, this is a clear example that James Marsden has *IT* as well.

Thank you for your attention, I now return to working on my fanfic.

 

[Loganbabe]

Remember Magic Johnson? He set the record for the most assists, not total points. Assists meaning that more than anyone else he passed the ball over to another player to help them make a shot. Therefore his action was just as important as that of the player who scored the actual point. That, is teamwork.

And that´s exactly what he´s talking about. Teamwork. But still, he was THE Magic Johnson. The one player people recognized, the face of the team. I, for instance, don´t know a thing about American basketball. I don´t know the players, if they´re good or bad - and I don´t care. But I know Magic Johnson. Why is he famous? I suppose that´s because he is (or was) good, isn´t it?
You can say the same about Wolverine. He was part of a team, and then suddenly he was famous, popular and recognized, the face of said team. Why? Because he was is a good character, interesting, original. Better than the others? No, but he had something that connected him to the fans. It wasn´t Marvel that made him so famous, the fans did it.
Before the first movie, I didn´t know the X-Men, but I knew - or at least recognized - Wolverine. He was the obvious choice to be the main character in the movies. And it was a plus that an unknow actor from Australia nailed the role and made Wolvie come alive on the screen.
There was never a chance that Cyke would be the main character in X3. We can all agree that he was given a raw deal, but it´s unrealistic to expect his role would be bigger than Wolverine´s, Phoenix saga or not.

 

[ntcrawler]

There was never a chance that Cyke would be the main character in X3. We can all agree that he was given a raw deal, but it´s unrealistic to expect his role would be bigger than Wolverine´s, Phoenix saga or not.

No, that is not correct, as has been pointed out several times that Bryan Synger specifically intended to make Cyclops' character stand out and be the focus, one of the main chars in X3, specifically because X3 was going to be about the Phoenix saga, which by definition revolves around Cyclops and Jean Grey, with Wolverine as a supporting, but not a main character.


But yes, we can all agree that he was butchered at least.

 

[ntcrawler]

And that´s exactly what he´s talking about. Teamwork. But still, he was THE Magic Johnson. The one player people recognized, the face of the team.

Haha, hardly. Kareem Abdul Jabbar, Michael Cooper, A.C. Green, and Kurt Rhambis were all equally recognizeable, among others. At that point, the Lakers never, ever revolved around a single player. Each was instrumental to contributing to their success, and each was recognizeable in the public eye during this period, but never tried to hog the spotlight or be THE player. Equal contribution, equal recognition. A true team. And that is how the X-men have always been portrayed, most visibly in X1, and least visibly in X3.

 

[Loganbabe]

No, that is not correct, as has been pointed out several times that Bryan Synger specifically intended to make Cyclops' character stand out and be the focus, one of the main chars in X3, specifically because X3 was going to be about the Phoenix saga, which by definition revolves around Cyclops and Jean Grey, with Wolverine as a supporting, but not a main character.

You keep talking about it, but I´ve never read those Singer statements. Perhaps you could send me some links.
Singer was the one who put Cyke on the background in X2. There´s no way he would be the main character in X3.
Maybe it would be better to forget all about Jean and the Phoenix in X3, because the cure plot was good enough to be explored. But the fans would have a collective heart attack if Jean stayed dead in X3.

Haha, hardly. Kareem Abdul Jabbar, Michael Cooper, A.C. Green, and Kurt Rhambis were all equally recognizeable, among others. At that point, the Lakers never, ever revolved around a single player. Each was instrumental to contributing to their success, and each was recognizeable in the public eye during this period, but never tried to hog the spotlight or be THE player. Equal contribution, equal recognition. A true team. And that is how the X-men have always been portrayed, most visibly in X1, and least visibly in X3.

Look, like I said, I don´t know a thing about basketball. All the names you mentioned are totally unknown to me. Plus, I´m from Brazil, and I can´t even tell you the names of two Brazilian basket players!
But I know Magic Johnson. I don´t know if he was the best player, but I believe he had something that made him so popular (or at least recognizable) all over the world.
The same happens to Wolverine. He stands out. People can argue that he´s not the best character, he´s not even one of the most interesting, blah blah blah, but I find it hard to understand how is it possible for a terrible or stupid character to become so popular. Just like Johnson wasn´t a horrible player who became popular because some unknow reason.
Wolvie and Johnson are both teamplayers, but they stand out on their own as well.

 

[Celestial]

There was never a chance that Cyke would be the main character in X3. We can all agree that he was given a raw deal, but it´s unrealistic to expect his role would be bigger than Wolverine´s, Phoenix saga or not.

Agreed. I've also never seen anything to suggest that Singer had big plans for Cyclops. Don't forget that after X2, Cyclops fans were blaming Singer for his lack of screentime and suggesting that Singer didn't like Marsden.

 

[x-fan]

i say again your hating the wrong thing here. the writers and fox are the ones that push everyone aside not wolverine, he is an uber popular character. it is not the characters fault that the writers mishandled the movies and i mean all the movies not just three and the comics too but logan has done nothing to deserve hate the people writing this stuff do and fox for forcing their desires for wolverine on the public . lotr had better writers and a better studio than did xmen they also had nearly 10 yours to tell their story not maybe 6 how much character development could have been done with that much time ...well never know

 

[gambitfire]

I thought X3 worked as a team.

Look at the Danger Room scene: They were all working together. Rogue used Colossus' powers to sheild herself. Kitty phased herself and Bobby. The fast ball special.

And the alcatraz battle: The were all formed on a line, ready for combat, ready to fullfill their mission. I thought teamwork was present in the movies.

As for Storm, to me she had an arc.
X1: She was afraid of what Normal people would do to her and other mutants. She's afraid of the regestration act, and knows that they will do worse.

X2: She turned her fear into anger. It also showed her motherly side when her and nightcrawler went to save the children.

X3: Still mad, but has turned it into passion. Passion as a leader, passion with her powers, etc. And we can still see her motherly side, when she conforts Kitty, and such.

Passion as a leader? She lead a team in X3?! NO way shut up! are you serious? Darn i must have missed that over the screaming and whining and Wolverine calling the shots.

Teamwork was make Wolverine look good .

 

[gambitfire]

On that note, allow me to quote the editor-in-chief of Premiere Magazine, who has Hugh Jackman on the cover of their September 2006 Fall Preview issue (coincidentally, with the headline: "Hugh Jackman Sinks His Claws Into Two of the Season's Best Films")



And that, my doubting friends...is what is known as *IT*.

Thank you, and good night.

So now let me get this right.

It means that due to commercial success of one bound to be big franchise you end up getting better movie roles..............So at one point or another All of hollywood must have *It*

This *it* is getting pointless and overused by the second .

 

[gambitfire]

You're outstanding in your field. Just like every cow in America.

........................................................................