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Dark Phoenix X-Men Dark Phoenix SPOILER Discussion

The aliens should have been the Shi'ar who feel their empire threatened by the Phoenix force and want to kill Jean. The X-men have to decide if that's worth doing after she murders Mystique.

And that’s what it was. *sigh* once upon a time. That’s why the UN was brought in. To force the leaders of Earth to find and hand Jean over for destruction while the entire planet was being held hostage.
 
And that’s what it was. *sigh* once upon a time. That’s why the UN was brought in. To force the leaders of Earth to find and hand Jean over for destruction while the entire planet was being held hostage.

While not perfect, this feels very suitable and a lot better than what we got.
 
While not perfect, this feels very suitable and a lot better than what we got.

That would have been the plot of the second film. Fox slashed it but wanted the UN sequence to remain. Originally it would have been Imperial Guard Vs X-Men with Jean showing up to save Scott and turning the tables on them.
 
That would have been the plot of the second film. Fox slashed it but wanted the UN sequence to remain. Originally it would have been Imperial Guard Vs X-Men with Jean showing up to save Scott and turning the tables on them.

No wonder this movie doesn't even feel completed. Why keep the UN sequence out? This never felt like it had to be two films. The film felt like it still had 20 mins to do things with.
 
No wonder this movie doesn't even feel completed. Why keep the UN sequence out? This never felt like it had to be two films. The film felt like it still had 20 mins to do things with.

No the UN sequence that was filmed was still a very watered down version of what it should have been and with the reshuffling of the production schedule, they couldn’t get 3 key characters in it so they just scaled it to Jean, Scott, Xavier and Chastain. Should it have been two films, the 2nd film would have followed Xavier and Lilandra as he learned of the greater universe and tried to convince her that there wasn’t a better path, echoing his conversations with Erik in previous films. She would have evolved from a more clinical filer to a more compassionate one by the end. Not a very black and white Villain. Jean would have been the Villain of the first film.
 
What Kinberg should have done was included a meeting at the UN debating over how to handle Jean. I could see some of them fighting for not letting the MCU back on the streets and to look at all the good the X-Men have done and I could see some individuals arguing that mutants are dangerous and this is what happens when we (as in humans) let are guard down. Also you could’ve introduced younger versions of Sen. Kelly and Gyrich in cameo roles. The president which should have been an actor playing Bush Sr making the final call. Also their should have been scenes with mutants rioting, cameo appearance of FOH. While Xavier and the other X-Men are seeing this from home.
 
No the UN sequence that was filmed was still a very watered down version of what it should have been and with the reshuffling of the production schedule, they couldn’t get 3 key characters in it so they just scaled it to Jean, Scott, Xavier and Chastain. Should it have been two films, the 2nd film would have followed Xavier and Lilandra as he learned of the greater universe and tried to convince her that there wasn’t a better path, echoing his conversations with Erik in previous films. She would have evolved from a more clinical filer to a more compassionate one by the end. Not a very black and white Villain. Jean would have been the Villain of the first film.

Decent ideas but the production sounds damned. What a shame.
 
So @icekid since your embargo is lifted can you go into greater detail about this film from the time production started? Any thing we should know about characters and actors? Plot? Etc etc
 
Second movie or not, they could've made this movie 20 minutes longer and better developed Jean's "corruption" as more than just a single freakout at the party. She should've had scenes with Charles and Raven after the "accident" and hints that something was off (maybe some elements clearly stating this is supercharging her powers she's kept in check since Egypt, ahem, for instance).

It also could've spent more time on Charles mourning Raven, and the alien's seduction of Jean... but eh. It would need better dialogue for any of that to land, so maybe it's better it was kept tight?
 
Fair and I agree. I was just thinking of ways to make the movie work a little better since Kinberg insists on hitting The Last Stand's tired beats.

Related to this, are we going to talk about that ****ed up scene between Jean and Charles in this film? I know the movie was trying to find ways to get audiences to feel morally repulsed by Jean's behaviour, but using a character's disability to humiliate him crossed the line. It was supposed to shock audiences and it worked, but it was done so irresponsibly - Charles never gets to unpack being violated in that way.

I'm genuinely curious about other people's takes on that scene.

I think the point is that IS such a horrible, traumatizing thing to do to someone. He's clearly traumatized by it. But even then, he understands that she is redeemable. He forgives her, and wants to help her redeem herself. I thought that was a lot more powerful than having him state or confront the obvious about what had just happened to him. He wasn't all that concerned about himself in the sequence. He was concerned about her.
 
Meh quicksilver doesn’t really have a reason to turn on Jean, unlike Beast and Magneto. It would have been cool to see father and son on opposing sides.

He has the same reason anyone would. She's wildly dangerous and out of control, and threatening the world at large. If the point was to split the X-Men up, it would make sense to have more than one of them go to Magneto.

In my hypothetical, I would have developed a bit of mentor/student with Quicksilver and Mystique, with a hint of "you knew my father" in a brief scene before her death and before going to Magneto.

Anyway, it's all well and good to talk about what Kinberg should have done...but there's pretty clearly only so much he was allowed to do. That runtime is workable, but somewhat limiting in itself.
 
And that’s what it was. *sigh* once upon a time. That’s why the UN was brought in. To force the leaders of Earth to find and hand Jean over for destruction while the entire planet was being held hostage.

While the outcome clearly would have been different, with more of the "fighting for Jean" thing going on, that sounds considerably similar to another superhero movie we all know and love.
 
So @icekid since your embargo is lifted can you go into greater detail about this film from the time production started? Any thing we should know about characters and actors? Plot? Etc etc
I don’t really have a lot of detail around that as my involvement was after my screening which was after both initial production and the reshoots. During the time after that, I learned in greater detail about a few things, mainly around concepts. For instance, the order to cut both the films into one and that’s the reason why the third act needed to be written as they were filming. That’s why Chastain had to start filming so late because she had to be rewritten entirely. The end of the first film was supposed to be everyone against Jean in NY stretching into Central Park, much like the original Dark Phoenix saga.
Second movie or not, they could've made this movie 20 minutes longer and better developed Jean's "corruption" as more than just a single freakout at the party. She should've had scenes with Charles and Raven after the "accident" and hints that something was off (maybe some elements clearly stating this is supercharging her powers she's kept in check since Egypt, ahem, for instance).

It also could've spent more time on Charles mourning Raven, and the alien's seduction of Jean... but eh. It would need better dialogue for any of that to land, so maybe it's better it was kept tight?
There wasn’t more of the aliens seduction of Jean, but there was a longer hologram scene, probably another 45 seconds or so that was cut to not lose impact of Vuk’s intentions. There was a lot more of Hank and Charles mourning Raven’s death, as well as POVs of random students around the school. It was mainly cut because Kurt didn’t play believable against the students.
 
The movie is 1:50. I'm sure there are several "character building" sequences that just didn't make the cut. That tends to be how it works. The studio isn't going to cut the stuff it spent the most money on filming unless it absolutely has to.
 
I think the point is that IS such a horrible, traumatizing thing to do to someone. He's clearly traumatized by it. But even then, he understands that she is redeemable. He forgives her, and wants to help her redeem herself. I thought that was a lot more powerful than having him state or confront the obvious about what had just happened to him. He wasn't all that concerned about himself in the sequence. He was concerned about her.

Audiences should question whether or not Jean should be fought for. The destruction of a solar system isn't in this film's wheelhouse so I get why they wanted to go a different route. One way is for her to kill someone important, which they did with Mystique. Given how accidental that was, the movie needed more. I get that what she did to Xavier was very personal and that's where the moral repulsion comes from. It's purposefully cruel and everyone acted the hell out of it. The movie never gets to breathe after that scene. How has that changed how he sees Jean? How does the team feel after she does that? Do we even know Jean well enough to see how shocking and out of character that was?

That material wasn't presented carefully enough, imo.
 
Audiences should question whether or not Jean should be fought for. The destruction of a solar system isn't in this film's wheelhouse so I get why they wanted to go a different route. One way is for her to kill someone important, which they did with Mystique. Given how accidental that was, the movie needed more. I get that what she did to Xavier was very personal and that's where the moral repulsion comes from. It's purposefully cruel and everyone acted the hell out of it. The movie never gets to breathe after that scene. How has that changed how he sees Jean? How does the team feel after she does that? Do we even know Jean well enough to see how shocking and out of character that was?

That material wasn't presented carefully enough, imo.

Yeah I loved that scene but you’re right, it didn’t get time to sit with the characters. They didn’t have time to process what just happened to them and for us to see that. It was in a hurry to roll the credits.
 
Yeah I loved that scene but you’re right, it didn’t get time to sit with the characters. They didn’t have time to process what just happened to them and for us to see that. It was in a hurry to roll the credits.

Exactly. If the movie wants to go there, it needs to do it properly. In many ways, this should have been the moment the whole film led to and the moment that completely changes how characters/audiences were feeling toward Jean (and how Jean feels about herself). It got played as an edgy and disrespectful thought experiment.
 
One way is for her to kill someone important, which they did with Mystique.

And I honestly think that was a mistake. If they didn't want to go with killing billions by destroying a solar system, they could certainly come up with something else that, in the hands of the right writers and directors, should be impactful enough.

Making Jean kill one of their own, in both adaptations, created a division and conflict in the team, and they focused too much on that. And that's not really what I associate with the X-Men or that storyline. I mean, they made Jean Grey more like a source of conflict for the X-Men, and I felt like it was a disservice to the character. As I said before, Jean's last scene in X2, IMO, paid more respect to the essence of the storyline and to Jean as a character than the entire Dark Phoenix movie. Jean getting emotional looking at the X-Men before getting out of the Jet is the Jean we should've seen more in Dark Phoenix. They should have focused more on this woman who could sacrifice herself for the people she loves, than turning her into the source of conflict of them.
 
Chastain said in an interview "I kill some x-men" (or something to that effect) were more x-men supposed to die in this film?
I suspect she thought Selene and Red Lotus were X-men. That or she was parroting a talking point that Kinberg was selling to the media.

Fassy was doing the same thing, at one of the premieres he was repeating PR lines from Kinberg, "They did Dark Phoenix in X-men: The Last Stand and this is our chance to correct those mistakes."

These actors are too trusting of Kinberg. They probably don't know he's the laughing stock amongst the fandom.
 
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And I honestly think that was a mistake. If they didn't want to go with killing billions by destroying a solar system, they could certainly come up with something else that, in the hands of the right writers and directors, should be impactful enough.

Making Jean kill one of their own, in both adaptations, created a division and conflict in the team, and they focused too much on that. And that's not really what I associate with the X-Men or that storyline. I mean, they made Jean Grey more like a source of conflict for the X-Men, and I felt like it was a disservice to the character. As I said before, Jean's last scene in X2, IMO, paid more respect to the essence of the storyline and to Jean as a character than the entire Dark Phoenix movie. Jean getting emotional looking at the X-Men before getting out of the Jet is the Jean we should've seen more in Dark Phoenix. They should have focused more on this woman who could sacrifice herself for the people she loves, than turning her into the source of conflict of them.

I don't really care about specific comic book accuracy as long as the spirit of the comics is captured in the films. X2 definitely has the spirit that DP lacks. I like the first 20 mins because Jean is heroic and selfless, however, we still don't know what her teammates mean to her. Is Storm her sister or a colleague? What does she think about Nightcrawler? Why does she love Cyclops?

The movie takes a stab at Jean's heroic sacrifice but I honestly couldn't care less. A lazy voiceover and weird and special effects? Where the hell is the fire form promised in those beautiful early posters? The phoenix raptor in the distance at the end was embarrassing and cheesy. I'm frustrated by so much.
 
I like the first 20 mins because Jean is heroic and selfless, however, we still don't know what her teammates mean to her.

Exactly. Or what she means for them. I mean, look at how they react when she basically dies in space. Or when she actually dies. It's just... emotionless.

Also, they focused too much on negative aspects of her relationships. We've seen a bit of her relationship with Raven, but she kills her. She runs to Eric, but he wants to kill her. Charles was the one who harmed her. We knew Scott loved her, but why? We didn't see or feel that. We knew why Hank and Eric wanted to kill her, but why the X-Men wanted to save her?

They should have focused more on positive aspects of Jean's character and her relationships.
 
Ugh absolutely.

I think I rolled my eyes when Scott put the Jean Grey School sign up. Everything was rushed, negative.
 
Kind of hard to argue that she wasn't an essential part of the movie. It was just an especially bland and uninteresting part of it. She had some major screentime, and an impact on Jean.

It's not lazy to understand the mechanics involved in taking a character who pretty much HAS to have ties to Charles Xavier and understand that this would shift more screentime to Xavier and take it away from Jean.

I don't recall anyone ever saying that, but they pretty clearly didn't use Lilandra because they didn't want to completely underserve the character. She was conceived as a key element of a two part storyline, where she would have had more adequate devleopment/exploration. If you read between the lines a bit...Marvel is probably going to use Lilandra in its franchise, and sooner rather than later.

Why is this incorrect? If they'd included Wolverine, audiences likely would have wanted to see that familiar element. That would require additional screentime, as would Wolverine's mere existence in the story.

They did have fiery Jean.

They had it when she truly "let go" and embraced her power, much like the previous film.

His reasons are perfectly logical and based on structural screenwriting concerns.

But Cassandra Nova would have required more time to tell the story, to develop that angle, and that would give more screenttime to Charles.

There are very real constraints when it comes to making a single film. Something like the Hellfire Club or even Cassandra Nova was probably just a bit too complex for a single film.

If they were going to have a somewhat "faceless" villain, they made the right call, I think, in terms of how it fits into the Dark Phoenix storyline and the fate of Earth. It just wasn't executed well.
I'd rather not relitigate every single one of these excuses.

The end is near. You don't have to defend this franchise any more.
 
@icekid Did you see the UN scene and the original ending in space? Does Jean show more powers in these scenes than what we got in the train ending? And do you think that could possibly be in an alternate cut that they release? Thanks for clearing things up for fans.
 

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